RAIB Investigation costs (estimate)

[EC Traveller]

Having just digested a recent RAIB report (Derailment and fire at Llangennech) I note, once more, how thorough some of the testing/proof work is carried out (in this case the brake valve testing work with the O rings).

Has anyone ever seen an estimate of cost of how much the RIAB put on such investigations?

I only ask as road accidents, the few investigated, are rated to cost (as a total, not just the investigations) in the region of 1 - 1½ million pounds (according to the police's own KSI stats); their investigations seem like guesswork by barely trained bods, usually just to gain a prosecution and never published in the greater community.

Yet, rail (and air) investigations are at a completely different level and rightly so.

 

[Daniel.howitt@]

Having just digested a recent RAIB report (Derailment and fire at Llangennech) I note, once more, how thorough some of the testing/proof work is carried out (in this case the brake valve testing work with the O rings).

Has anyone ever seen an estimate of cost of how much the RIAB put on such investigations?

I only ask as road accidents, the few investigated, are rated to cost (as a total, not just the investigations) in the region of 1 - 1½ million pounds (according to the police's own KSI stats); their investigations seem like guesswork by barely trained bods, usually just to gain a prosecution and never published in the greater community.

Yet, rail (and air) investigations are at a completely different level and rightly so.

Not sure is the true answer, but Rail and Air accidents tend to be investigated due to the sheer complexity and learning points from incidents. As they say the Rule Book is written in blood.

 

[peri]

A couple of slightly off topic questions:-
How many staff on average are needed?
How many investigations could they handle at the same time/

 

[najaB]

Has anyone ever seen an estimate of cost of how much the RIAB put on such investigations?

From what I've heard the cost of a RAIB investigation is about twice the length of a typical piece of string.

 

[Snow1964]

Presumably most (if not all) RAIB are salaried and paid regardless of if they are at an investigation site, in an office or working from home. I doubt staff costs are highly variable depending on workload.

They might hire occasional consultants (but much of the skill and experience is within salary bill as above.)

Can’t see them actually buying very much to test it, and destruct it, that isn’t effectively given to them as crash damaged or given as a free duplicate or spare. So other costs low.

Add in bit of travel and hotels, and I suspect RAIB costs are a bit like schools with 90-96% staff related. So calculation you need is basically salaries divided by number of reports issued.

 

[380101]

Having just digested a recent RAIB report (Derailment and fire at Llangennech) I note, once more, how thorough some of the testing/proof work is carried out (in this case the brake valve testing work with the O rings).

Has anyone ever seen an estimate of cost of how much the RIAB put on such investigations?

I only ask as road accidents, the few investigated, are rated to cost (as a total, not just the investigations) in the region of 1 - 1½ million pounds (according to the police's own KSI stats); their investigations seem like guesswork by barely trained bods, usually just to gain a prosecution and never published in the greater community.

Yet, rail (and air) investigations are at a completely different level and rightly so.

Got to disagree on your point about Police accident investigation. All serious and fatal road traffic collisions are investigated by extremely highly training collision investigators, some qualified at degree level. Road traffic collision investigation is a highly specialised role and involves hours of work after the scene is cleared. Vehicles are taken back to specialist garages to be examined thoroughly to determine if any defects contributed to the cause just the same as RAIB do. To say that police collision investigation is "seems like guess work by barely trained bods" show just how ignorant you are!

 

[PG]

Has anyone ever seen an estimate of cost of how much the RIAB put on such investigations?

Since the RAIB is a public body you can make a Freedom of Information request, if you so wish.
See below, which can be found at https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/rail-accident-investigation-branch

Freedom of Information requests​

Email
[email protected]

 

[thejuggler]

The 1-1.5m for a road accident isn't the cost of the investigation. Its a rough estimate of the cost to society of that accident from the initial 999 call to the end of the persons life, which could be at the scene, or it could be 50 years later, after decades of 24/7 care

Police accident is indeed detailed, it has to be as it will be evidence in Court. An error could see someone either not being behind bars for a long time for killing/injuring someone, or someone being behind bars who shouldn't be.

30 years or so ago a friend wanted to join the Force for the job, but despite vehicle knowledge coming out of his ears he didn't have a degree.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

According to their 2020 annual report they spent £5m that year. As to whether they can recover any costs im not sure.

 

[TravelDream]

A quick look at the numbers online surprised me.

The RAIB has a budget of £5.2 million per annum with a staff of 43 people whilst the AAIB (Air accidents) has a budget of £18 million per annum with 64 staff. Whilst the AAIB does have an international remit, this is pretty limited. I am not sure why the AAIB would need more than triple the budget with just 1.5 times the number of staff.

 

[PG]

According to their 2020 annual report they spent £5m that year. As to whether they can recover any costs im not sure.

I wonder what proportion of that sum could be attributed to their investigations of the Carmont and Llangennech derailments? (Not intended as a criticism or with any disrespect to anyone who was involved or affected by either of these)

 

[rob.rjt]

A quick look at the numbers online surprised me.

The RAIB has a budget of £5.2 million per annum with a staff of 43 people whilst the AAIB (Air accidents) has a budget of £18 million per annum with 64 staff. Whilst the AAIB does have an international remit, this is pretty limited. I am not sure why the AAIB would need more than triple the budget with just 1.5 times the number of staff.

Probably because AAIB undertakes a lot more investigations than RAIB. Their current investigations page (https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...stigation-branch-current-field-investigations) shows 31 current ongoing investigations. at various stages of progress. Their 2020 report (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/annual-safety-review-2020) says that they published 229 reports in 2020. I can't remember what the highest numbered report for RAIB in a year was - possibly in the 20s or early 30s, but certainly not on the scale of AAIB.

 

[Stigy]

Got to disagree on your point about Police accident investigation. All serious and fatal road traffic collisions are investigated by extremely highly training collision investigators, some qualified at degree level. Road traffic collision investigation is a highly specialised role and involves hours of work after the scene is cleared. Vehicles are taken back to specialist garages to be examined thoroughly to determine if any defects contributed to the cause just the same as RAIB do. To say that police collision investigation is "seems like guess work by barely trained bods" show just how ignorant you are!

I agree with you there. The other post was almost a dig at police accident investigations.

Serious and fatal accidents/collisions are thoroughly investigated both at the scene and once the scene is cleared, I’d say to the extent of any rail accident. The difference in rail/air accidents from road collisions is that these naturally require an knowledge of the workings of the industry and its safety systems etc, largely I’d imagine, because not everyone can just get in a train and drive it, or fly an aircraft etc, in the same way you can to all intents and purposes just get in a car and drive it.

With road vehicle crashes, skid marks on the road surface are measured, lightbulbs are examined and the vehicles will have a thorough mechanical examination. Of course, most cars don’t have a telematics box like aircraft and trains do, which, if anything, would make investigations more difficult I’d imagine.

 

[SynthD]

26 investigators. Source: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/785065/response/1868397/attach/html/4/Reply.pdf.html https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/body/raib

Some of the cost is in being ready to go when an event happens.

 

[M7R]

It will also come down to the grade of the staff…how many admin (AO and EO wages (late teens to mid-late£20s) how many investigators (I think they were grade 7 when I looked at applying so mid £50s) plus the CEO etc… so the more higher paid investigators the higher the wage bill… plus OT costs, domestic disturbance payments… etc

then you have things like hotels, car higher etc for travel…

the staff costs are semi fixed within reason but for each investigation you will still need some expert consultants I would guess (depending what’s gone wrong and they aren’t cheap) …the bill soon adds up, I work in a different part of DFT but have an idea of costs as we do something sort of similar

 

[edwin_m]

A quick look at the numbers online surprised me.

The RAIB has a budget of £5.2 million per annum with a staff of 43 people whilst the AAIB (Air accidents) has a budget of £18 million per annum with 64 staff. Whilst the AAIB does have an international remit, this is pretty limited. I am not sure why the AAIB would need more than triple the budget with just 1.5 times the number of staff.

A few years ago RAIB was "brigaded" with AAIB and moved to the same HQ at Farnborough. So it my be that the shared admin functions are still charged against AAIB's budget.

Probably because AAIB undertakes a lot more investigations than RAIB. Their current investigations page (https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...stigation-branch-current-field-investigations) shows 31 current ongoing investigations. at various stages of progress. Their 2020 report (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/annual-safety-review-2020) says that they published 229 reports in 2020. I can't remember what the highest numbered report for RAIB in a year was - possibly in the 20s or early 30s, but certainly not on the scale of AAIB.

The cost will depend more on the number of staff than on the number of investigations. While AAIB does a lot more, reading the reports of the correspondence investigations suggests they usually only write up what the correspondents say and add a bit of commentary. There are exceptions including a recent one into an aircraft running over a towbar, where they did make further enquiries, but this is unusual.

 

[4069]

Hmmmm.....not quite.

RAIB does not share an HQ with AAIB. Our Farnborough office is on the same piece of government-owned land as AAIB's HQ, but they are separate buildings. There is some shared admin, mainly media handling, but otherwise both organisations rely on DfT for HR and pay and have their own local finance and support teams.

RAIB investigators are grade 7, but are paid on a specialist scale, so £75-85K. All are permanent civil servants, so the investigation of large and small events is all covered by the same fixed costs. There are 20 inspectors and four principal inspectors, who manage the investigations.

The recently completed Llangennech investigation had one person on it full time, able to draw on assistance from colleagues with specialist knowledge as required. Costs of testing and reconstructions are met by industry where those tests would have to have been carried out for the purposes of industry's own investigation, as was the case at Llangennech. Sometimes additional work is commissioned and paid for by RAIB. So yes, a piece of string, but usually quite a short one.

Stuart J
RAIB

 

[najaB]

Hmmmm.....not quite.

RAIB does not share an HQ with AAIB. Our Farnborough office is on the same piece of government-owned land as AAIB's HQ, but they are separate buildings. There is some shared admin, mainly media handling, but otherwise both organisations rely on DfT for HR and pay and have their own local finance and support teams.

RAIB investigators are grade 7, but are paid on a specialist scale, so £75-85K. All are permanent civil servants, so the investigation of large and small events is all covered by the same fixed costs. There are 20 inspectors and four principal inspectors, who manage the investigations.

The recently completed Llangennech investigation had one person on it full time, able to draw on assistance from colleagues with specialist knowledge as required. Costs of testing and reconstructions are met by industry where those tests would have to have been carried out for the purposes of industry's own investigation, as was the case at Llangennech. Sometimes additional work is commissioned and paid for by RAIB. So yes, a piece of string, but usually quite a short one.

Stuart J
RAIB

Thanks for that. Just for clarity my "piece of string" comment wasn't intended to be dismissive, but rather as a way to say "It varies".

 

[Taunton]

A quick look at the numbers online surprised me.

The RAIB has a budget of £5.2 million per annum with a staff of 43 people whilst the AAIB (Air accidents) has a budget of £18 million per annum with 64 staff. Whilst the AAIB does have an international remit, this is pretty limited. I am not sure why the AAIB would need more than triple the budget with just 1.5 times the number of staff.

Well for a start the AAIB need their personnel with current pilots' licences. You can't really have air investigations done by someone who doesn't fly themself. So, to keep currency, they have to keep their licence up to date. That's a considerable cost, even though airlines like British Airways help out by letting them have occasional sessions on their big simulators.

 

[TravelDream]

Probably because AAIB undertakes a lot more investigations than RAIB. Their current investigations page (https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...stigation-branch-current-field-investigations) shows 31 current ongoing investigations. at various stages of progress. Their 2020 report (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/annual-safety-review-2020) says that they published 229 reports in 2020. I can't remember what the highest numbered report for RAIB in a year was - possibly in the 20s or early 30s, but certainly not on the scale of AAIB.

As @edwin_m has already said, most AAIB reports tend to be very brief summaries of what happened rather than in-depth investigations.
Most investigations in aviation are for incidents and not accidents. These are usually delegated to an operator if there is one and the AAIB generally accepts their report without comment.

These are two examples of AAIB produced reports.
1) https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/61bb27f7e90e070446653e49/Jabiru_J400_G-CCPV_01-22.pdf
2) https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/61bb3082e90e070448c521d4/Cessna_120_G-AJJT_01-22.pdf
They are not particularly detailed and is essentially just a summary of someone else's comments. The first is padded out by data supplied by someone else. If they don't supply it, you get something more like 2.

For accidents, outside expertise is often brought in, but this cost is covered by other people. All manufacturers (Airbus, Boeing, GE, Roills-Royce, Safran etc) have their own people who contribute to investigations. Airlines will also have, or bring in, their own experts. The US NTSB (the do both rail and air) almost always sends its people to accidents as basically every plane on the planet has some American components.

 

[GB]

As @edwin_m has already said, most AAIB reports tend to be very brief summaries of what happened rather than in-depth investigations.

Just because a final report might be "brief" (by whatever standards you are applying), doesn't mean the actual investigation wasn't "in-depth".

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Hmmmm.....not quite.

RAIB does not share an HQ with AAIB. Our Farnborough office is on the same piece of government-owned land as AAIB's HQ, but they are separate buildings. There is some shared admin, mainly media handling, but otherwise both organisations rely on DfT for HR and pay and have their own local finance and support teams.

RAIB investigators are grade 7, but are paid on a specialist scale, so £75-85K. All are permanent civil servants, so the investigation of large and small events is all covered by the same fixed costs. There are 20 inspectors and four principal inspectors, who manage the investigations.

The recently completed Llangennech investigation had one person on it full time, able to draw on assistance from colleagues with specialist knowledge as required. Costs of testing and reconstructions are met by industry where those tests would have to have been carried out for the purposes of industry's own investigation, as was the case at Llangennech. Sometimes additional work is commissioned and paid for by RAIB. So yes, a piece of string, but usually quite a short one.

Stuart J
RAIB

Indeed thanks for the insight

 

[ComUtoR]

Stuart J
RAIB

Many thanks for the work you and your colleagues do to help keep our railway safe.

Com
TOC Driver

 

[EC Traveller]

Thanks.
Some good, and others not so clever, replies.
The 'budget of £5.2 million per annum' is as a good an estimate as anyone could hope for - the actual spend per incident obviously varies a lot.

 

[cjmillsnun]

As @edwin_m has already said, most AAIB reports tend to be very brief summaries of what happened rather than in-depth investigations.
Most investigations in aviation are for incidents and not accidents. These are usually delegated to an operator if there is one and the AAIB generally accepts their report without comment.

These are two examples of AAIB produced reports.
1) https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/61bb27f7e90e070446653e49/Jabiru_J400_G-CCPV_01-22.pdf
2) https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/61bb3082e90e070448c521d4/Cessna_120_G-AJJT_01-22.pdf
They are not particularly detailed and is essentially just a summary of someone else's comments. The first is padded out by data supplied by someone else. If they don't supply it, you get something more like 2.

For accidents, outside expertise is often brought in, but this cost is covered by other people. All manufacturers (Airbus, Boeing, GE, Roills-Royce, Safran etc) have their own people who contribute to investigations. Airlines will also have, or bring in, their own experts. The US NTSB (the do both rail and air) almost always sends its people to accidents as basically every plane on the planet has some American components.

To be fair RAIB release many safety digests or bulletins for minor incidents.
You’ve shown 2 AAIB reports for private planes.
Reports for commercial flights are far more detailed, for example this is Kegworth https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422fefeed915d13710009ed/4-1990_G-OBME.pdf

 

[TravelDream]

To be fair RAIB release many safety digests or bulletins for minor incidents.
You’ve shown 2 AAIB reports for private planes.
Reports for commercial flights are far more detailed, for example this is Kegworth https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422fefeed915d13710009ed/4-1990_G-OBME.pdf

I said in my post that accident investigations receive a lot more attention than incident investigations. Commercial accident investigations in the UK are incredibly rare.
That was from back in 1989.

I pointed to recent examples of reports as someone stated the AAIB published 229 reports in 2020. I was pointing out that most are incredibly brief and could hardly be described as investigations as most would think.

 

[WoollyMammoth]

Hmmmm.....not quite.

RAIB does not share an HQ with AAIB. Our Farnborough office is on the same piece of government-owned land as AAIB's HQ, but they are separate buildings. There is some shared admin, mainly media handling, but otherwise both organisations rely on DfT for HR and pay and have their own local finance and support teams.

RAIB investigators are grade 7, but are paid on a specialist scale, so £75-85K. All are permanent civil servants, so the investigation of large and small events is all covered by the same fixed costs. There are 20 inspectors and four principal inspectors, who manage the investigations.

The recently completed Llangennech investigation had one person on it full time, able to draw on assistance from colleagues with specialist knowledge as required. Costs of testing and reconstructions are met by industry where those tests would have to have been carried out for the purposes of industry's own investigation, as was the case at Llangennech. Sometimes additional work is commissioned and paid for by RAIB. So yes, a piece of string, but usually quite a short one.

Stuart J
RAIB

Thanks for taking the time to share this!

 

[Lloyds siding]

I agree with you there. The other post was almost a dig at police accident investigations.

Serious and fatal accidents/collisions are thoroughly investigated both at the scene and once the scene is cleared, I’d say to the extent of any rail accident. The difference in rail/air accidents from road collisions is that these naturally require an knowledge of the workings of the industry and its safety systems etc, largely I’d imagine, because not everyone can just get in a train and drive it, or fly an aircraft etc, in the same way you can to all intents and purposes just get in a car and drive it.

With road vehicle crashes, skid marks on the road surface are measured, lightbulbs are examined and the vehicles will have a thorough mechanical examination. Of course, most cars don’t have a telematics box like aircraft and trains do, which, if anything, would make investigations more difficult I’d imagine.

Many modern cars do have 'event data recorders', which, whilst not of the sophistication of a telematics box, record data such as speed, braking, attitude on the road, steering, whether emergency equipment has activated (air bags, antilock braking, seatbelts in use or not). The EDR is usually linked to the airbags, and records data just prior to their deployment.
The first prosecution in the UK using EDR data was in 2006, it provided evidence of doing 72mph just prior to the crash (in a 30 zone).

 

[M7R]

Hmmmm.....not quite.

RAIB does not share an HQ with AAIB. Our Farnborough office is on the same piece of government-owned land as AAIB's HQ, but they are separate buildings. There is some shared admin, mainly media handling, but otherwise both organisations rely on DfT for HR and pay and have their own local finance and support teams.

RAIB investigators are grade 7, but are paid on a specialist scale, so £75-85K. All are permanent civil servants, so the investigation of large and small events is all covered by the same fixed costs. There are 20 inspectors and four principal inspectors, who manage the investigations.

The recently completed Llangennech investigation had one person on it full time, able to draw on assistance from colleagues with specialist knowledge as required. Costs of testing and reconstructions are met by industry where those tests would have to have been carried out for the purposes of industry's own investigation, as was the case at Llangennech. Sometimes additional work is commissioned and paid for by RAIB. So yes, a piece of string, but usually quite a short one.

Stuart J
RAIB

Thanks for that, far more detailed than I could have ever given (I was basing some of my reply on our pay - we are AO grade up to 7 for the main staff but the engineers like me are on special rates as our HEO and SEO bands are higher paid than other areas of government) clear to see why you guys are paid what you are though.

 

[Bodiddly]

If the investigation finds fault and it normally does, I would have thought a proportion of that investigation would be paid for by the insurers of the company/companies involved.