RAIB Report - FCC Incident May 2011 - Kentish Town

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jopsuk

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Even just scanning through and reading the blue-highlighted paragraphs, I think it will make uncomfortable reading for FCC management.
 

ushawk

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Just cock-up after cock-up after cock-up - but reading this doesnt surprise me with FCC.

Should of waited for the fitter at STP and should of been detrained there as well.
 

michael769

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A classic example of how unrealistic it is to expect one or two train crew to be able to effectively control and ensure the safety of several hundred agitated members of he public in difficult situations.

I am disappointed that despite it being clear from the report that the driver was unable to cope with the load imposed by the number and mental state of passengers - the RAIB has failed to fully highlight the critical need to get additional staff and BTP assistance on site, to aid passengers and ensure their safety in such situations - as being the #1 top priority.

Very much a missed opportunity and I fear that such incidents will continue until a detained passenger(s) are killed as a result of the industries failure to properly grasp the human factors influencing such incidents.
 

HSTEd

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I can sort of see why you would want a diesel ETS generator on an EMU now.... if for no other reason than to keep the air con working in situations like this.
 

tsr

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I can sort of see why you would want a diesel ETS generator on an EMU now.... if for no other reason than to keep the air con working in situations like this.

Either that or we have to build decent numbers of next-generation Class 73s (or similar) to be used as thunderbirds!

The one thing that comes across here is indeed how powerless train crew and other staff can be once passengers are distressed enough to open the doors. I also think that further consideration to emergency ventilation would be a good idea. That said, diesel trains have the opposite problem (as yesterday with the FGW HST that hit the motorbike at Ufton Nervet) - if they stop in tunnels or confined spaces, or near other DMUs/diesel locos, fumes seeping into the coaches get unbearable.
 

CC 72100

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That said, diesel trains have the opposite problem (as yesterday with the FGW HST that hit the motorbike at Ufton Nervet) - if they stop in tunnels or confined spaces, or near other DMUs/diesel locos, fumes seeping into the coaches get unbearable.

Interestingly enough, high fume levels was being reported by some passangers on board a delay FGW HST yesterday via Twitter.

I've had a good read of the report, and I'll admit I'm not very knowledgable at all in this area, but with lack of ventalation being a key factor once the incorrect decision to let the train leave St Pancras was taken, surely they should have had those door guards on board. In theory they solve a lot of the problem - keeping ventlation without passangers de-training themsleves putting everybody at risk, although that's only in theory, and I'm sure somebody with more experience will be able to come along and tell me why it's not so easy like that!
 

b0b

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Also interesting to me is how "debugged" the 319's are on the route - like having the door screens and the emergency PA power, but the lessons learned were not applied to the 377/5s
 

TEW

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Lots of criticisms of the lack of support the driver received, paragraphs 126-130 in particular. Seems that having a guard on board would have helped, the driver could then have concentrated on rectifying the fault and arranging assistance and the guard on trying to keep the passengers happy.
 

CC 72100

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Lots of criticisms of the lack of support the driver received, paragraphs 126-130 in particular. Seems that having a guard on board would have helped, the driver could then have concentrated on rectifying the fault and arranging assistance and the guard on trying to keep the passengers happy.

Yes, I think that is very true. The driver absolutely seemed to have his work cut out, and as you point out, the driver could have spent his time fixing the fault, the guard (or other support from FCC) take care of the passangers.

However, it is only one extra member of staff, they cannot be in 8 carriages at once and if passangers are determined to open the doors and 'make a break for freedom' they will do it.
 

mailman

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I thought the biggest thing to take away from the report was that no one could be found to make a quick management decision. To me that screams reams about the type of organisation that they are working in if people are "afraid" to make a decision (ie. afraid of getting in trouble).

Also, if the fault was down to a tree branch being stuck in the pentograph then I reckon there isnt a thing in the world the driver could have done to fix that problem. It could very well just be a situation where everyone was looking at everything but the problem.

Regards

Mailman
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Makes you weep that the might of the TOC and NR combined sat on their hands for three hours while two lone drivers were expected to fix the problems in the face of passenger revolt, without support.
Meanwhile the entire Thameslink evening service was lost, quite apart from the impact on the poor folk actually on the train involved.
I wonder if this will affect the First rebid for the franchise?
If not, how bad do you have to be to face disqualification for a franchise?
And why is it that airline pilots are always heroes and train drivers villains?
 

trentside

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I thought the biggest thing to take away from the report was that no one could be found to make a quick management decision. To me that screams reams about the type of organisation that they are working in if people are "afraid" to make a decision (ie. afraid of getting in trouble).

That's the impression I also took away from the report.

I noticed a point where it said that the driver had retreated to the cab because of the level of abuse he was receiving and he's the one I feel the most sorry for - especially as the report mentioned that he questioned the decision to continue the train in service to Kentish Town. Saying that, it must have been horrendous for the passengers and I can understand how tempers could have flared, even though there's little it would have achieved.
 

b0b

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Also pretty amazing the decision to not kick the passengers off at St Pancras because of a previous incident where the station could not handle it? It's a brand new station and a key interchange, how could they fail so badly to design the station to handle a trainload of passengers leaving?
 

ralphchadkirk

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I imagine the previous problem was trying to detrain a packed commuter train onto a rush hour platform.


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Ivo

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You have to feel sorry for the driver reading that. This was an operational nightmare, over which he had little if any control.

FCC should be ashamed of themselves for letting what should have been a pretty minor incident get so severely out-of-hand.
 

swj99

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Makes you weep that the might of the TOC and NR combined sat on their hands for three hours.......

.........the driver had retreated to the cab because of the level of abuse he was receiving and he's the one I feel the most sorry for...........
You don't even have to read between the lines in that report to see that the driver has effectively become a scapegoat in this sad state of affairs.
Political correctness prevents me from repeating what I said when I first read the report, but what a terrible mess !
 

Aictos

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Also pretty amazing the decision to not kick the passengers off at St Pancras because of a previous incident where the station could not handle it? It's a brand new station and a key interchange, how could they fail so badly to design the station to handle a trainload of passengers leaving?

Thing is though because the train wasn't terminated at St Pancras International, it left pretty much full and standing because it was allowed to stay in service which meant the chances of it breaking down again between St Pancras International and Kentish Town were a lot higher then it would have been had it been taken out of service at the first available site which was St Pancras International.

It was a foolhardy decision to allow it to continue in service, why did they not either take it out of service immediately and ran it to Kentish Town to clear the Core with the affected pantograph in the down position and move the train using the single unaffected pantograph.

In the mean time, surely bi-directional signalling was available to ensure one train at a time using the section to pass the failed train or use St Pancras International High Level, Blackfriars and City Thameslink to either terminate or hold services?

Not one of FCC's shining moments!
 

ushawk

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I imagine the previous problem was trying to detrain a packed commuter train onto a rush hour platform.


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But there would have been a train behind the one that had problems and there is of course the Underground and EMT services. Didnt help that no announcement was made before the train left for STP either, as the report says, it most likely would have cleared a lot of people off the train.
 

Class377/5

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In the mean time, surely bi-directional signalling was available to ensure one train at a time using the section to pass the failed train or use St Pancras International High Level, Blackfriars and City Thameslink to either terminate or hold services?

At that point of time bi-direction signalling wasn't fully operational yet. Both platforms at St Pancras were bi-direction but no way to signal a train from City (nearest point where northbound could crossover to the southbound line) wrong road with talking passed signals. A lengthy procedure.
 

JGR

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Just read that report, and ouch. :s
This sort of thing is inevitable though when no single person/body takes control of or at least is aware of the entire situation.
 
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