Rail Community Officer powers

[Tallguy]

Hi. Can someone please explain the legal powers of a Rail Community Officer. I was challenged by one the other day who started demanding personal details (I was on railway property but not in a compulsory ticket area having finished my train journey for which I had a valid ticket). I refused to give my details at which point he said they were needed for an ‘investigation’. I refused again and he threatened me with arrest. I replied that he had no powers of arrest and told him to ‘shut up’ and walked off. He didn’t follow me.

I’d love to know what their role and powers actually are.

 

[matt_world2004]

Was it a BTP PCSO?

 

[Tallguy]

No. It said a Rail Community Officer on his uniform. This seems to be a recognised job title having had a look on the web. Seems their job is to enforce low level bylaws and issue fixed penalty tickets, well that’s what I have read on the web.....apparently employed directly by the TOC’s.

SWT Rail Community Officer - Part Time

We are looking for highly motivated individuals to join our team of Rail Community Officers. Working in conjunction with the British Transport Police you will work to help provide a secure working environment for employees and customers, enabling them to go about their business without fear of...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Fawkes Cat]

No. It said a Rail Community Officer on his uniform. This seems to be a recognised job title having had a look on the web. Seems their job is to enforce low level bylaws and issue fixed penalty tickets, well that’s what I have read on the web.....apparently employed directly by the TOC’s.

In which case, they are presumably an 'officer or servant' of the railway company, who by RoRO can

Penalty for avoiding payment of fare.
(1)Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare from the place whence he started, or give the officer or servant his name and address; and in case of default shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding [F4level 2 on the standard scale].

(2)If a passenger having failed either to produce, or if requested to deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or to pay his fare, refuses [F5or fails] on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, to give his name and address, any officer of the company F6... may detain him until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law.

(source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57)

I don't know if there is a distinction between 'arrest' and 'may detain' or at what point one ceases to be a 'passenger' but those points apart, the RCO seems to have been acting precisely in line with the quoted subsections of RoRO.

 

[Tallguy]

This is nothing to do with the production of a ticket. As I stated in my initial post I had completed my rail journey for which I held a valid ticket and was not standing in a compulsory ticket area.

I was actually taking a photograph with my phone of the light coming through the canopy at Waterloo, from the main concourse on my way to exit the station. That’s when the Rail Community Officer came up to be and started demanding my name and address.

I categorically re-state that I was not fare evading And was not in a compulsory ticket area when approached.

I found this elsewhere on this forum.

SWT Rail Community Officer - Part Time

We are looking for highly motivated individuals to join our team of Rail Community Officers. Working in conjunction with the British Transport Police you will work to help provide a secure working environment for employees and customers, enabling them to go about their business without fear of...

www.railforums.co.uk

What I am looking for is information on the legality and extent of his powers and threats in relation to my situation at that time.

 

[StephenHunter]

I believe they can detain you until a regular officer shows up for a time limit of two hours, like PCSOs. Feel free to correct on that.

 

[cactustwirly]

In which case, they are presumably an 'officer or servant' of the railway company, who by RoRO can


(source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57)

I don't know if there is a distinction between 'arrest' and 'may detain' or at what point one ceases to be a 'passenger' but those points apart, the RCO seems to have been acting precisely in line with the quoted subsections of RoRO.

That sounds a bit off tbh, they have no powers to demand that you give your name and address unless they have reasonable suspicion of avoiding a fare. And if they were to detain you serious questions would be asked.

 

[Mag_seven]

Hi. Can someone please explain the legal powers of a Rail Community Officer. I was challenged by one the other day who started demanding personal details (I was on railway property but not in a compulsory ticket area having finished my train journey for which I had a valid ticket). I refused to give my details at which point he said they were needed for an ‘investigation’. I refused again and he threatened me with arrest. I replied that he had no powers of arrest and told him to ‘shut up’ and walked off. He didn’t follow me.

I’d love to know what their role and powers actually are.

Did they ask you to show your ticket first or did they just say "I want your personal details" without engaging in any conversation about whether you had a ticket or not?

 

[Enthusiast]

I believe they can detain you until a regular officer shows up for a time limit of two hours, like PCSOs. Feel free to correct on that.

I think it's 30 minutes.

 

[221129]

I think it's 30 minutes.

For a 'Normal' PCSO there is no time limit for an Authorised person under the railway bylaws this includes BTP PCSOs. Which is also why they carry handcuffs where normal PCSOs dont.

 

[221129]

I believe they can detain you until a regular officer shows up for a time limit of two hours, like PCSOs. Feel free to correct on that.

There is no time limit in the railway bylaws.

 

[cactustwirly]

There is no time limit in the railway bylaws.

Byelaws are secondary legislation though, I suspect this is overidden by primary legislation. This all seems sketchy to me, that a civilian can just detain a random person off the railway for not giving away personal details etc.
The police have no powers to demand for your name or address, unless they have reasonable suspicion that you have commited a crime (unless you are driving a car, but that is a completely different situation)

Fare evasion is not an indictable offense, so citizens arrest powers cannot be used.

 

[221129]

civilian can just detain a random person off the railway for not giving away personal details etc.

Where is this alleged? Or is it something you're just making up.

 

[Tallguy]

Just to summarise as not everyone seems to have read my posts and fully understood the circumstances;

I had finished my train journey for which I had a valid ticket and was standing on the station concourse taking a photograph of the sun coming through the station roof/canopy. A Rail Community Officer approached me and asked me what I was doing. I told him I was taking a photograph with my phone and he then demanded my details. I refused to give those details. He said my details were needed for an ‘investigation’ and asked me again for my details. Again I refused and he then threatened me with arrest. I replied that he had no powers of arrest, told him to ‘shut up’ and walked off. He did not follow me.

This event did not take place in a compulsory ticket area. It took place on the station concourse. This is not a fare evasion issue.

Just to summarise as not everyone seems to have read my posts and fully understood the circumstances;

I had finished my train journey for which I had a valid ticket and was standing on the station concourse taking a photograph of the sun coming through the station roof/canopy. A Rail Community Officer approached me and asked me what I was doing. I told him I was taking a photograph with my phone and he then demanded my details. I refused to give those details. He said my details were needed for an ‘investigation’ and asked me again for my details. Again I refused and he then threatened me with arrest. I replied that he had no powers of arrest, told him to ‘shut up’ and walked off. He did not follow me.

This event did not take place in a compulsory ticket area. It took place on the station concourse. This is not a fare evasion issue.

In which case, they are presumably an 'officer or servant' of the railway company, who by RoRO can


(source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57)

I don't know if there is a distinction between 'arrest' and 'may detain' or at what point one ceases to be a 'passenger' but those points apart, the RCO seems to have been acting precisely in line with the quoted subsections of RoRO.

I was not in a compulsory ticket area, I was on the station concourse. I was never asked for a ticket and didn't need one for where I was standing at the time.

Did they ask you to show your ticket first or did they just say "I want your personal details" without engaging in any conversation about whether you had a ticket or not?

No request for a ticket and I didn’t need one for where I was standing on the station concourse. See my main post.

 

[cactustwirly]

Where is this alleged? Or is it something you're just making up.

You said that PCSOs don't have a time limit for detentions, they are effectively civilians so cannot detain anyone in the first place.

 

[Eloise]

Telling him to "shut up" just sounds a little rude and you wonder why they dispense attitude at times. Maybe they were just doing their job, maybe they were aware and on the look out for something you didn't know, nor need to know, about. If you'd fallen into the four foot as you'd walked away and you needed them they'd have been there to help you despite that. Showing a little respect, both ways I get that, goes a long way.

 

[PupCuff]

I think all this talk of PCSOs etc is a bit of a red herring for the purposes of what the OP is asking. Railway Byelaw 23 states that:

1. any person reasonably suspected by an authorised person of breaching or attempting to breach any of these byelaws shall give his name and address when asked by an authorised person.
2. the authorised person asking for details under Byelaw 23(1) shall state the nature of the breach of any of these byelaws in general terms at the time of the request.

And therefore if the authorised person, whomever that may be, intends to take action under the railway byelaws but hasn't advised the 'perpetrator' of the nature of the byelaw breach then they have no legal obligation to give said authorised person their name and address.

The Rail Community Officer may have additional powers under the Railway Safety Accreditation Scheme Regs if they are such accredited though; these do not explicitly specify the same requirement for the accredited person to state the nature of the breach before requesting name and address and they are only obliged to show their identification if asked for it by the alleged perpatrator. That said, I would be very surprised if there was not an expectation for them to do so, clearly someone who is stopped without context is going to want to know what they are supposed to have done before providing their personal details to someone who has shown no identification. There may be other legislation or codes of practice in regards to this though.

 

[matt_world2004]

Taking photographs are no reason for details to be demanded. Even the police do not have the power to demand details in those circumstances

 

[Taunton]

If you'd fallen into the four foot as you'd walked away and you needed them

Come on, let's be sensible, how on earth can you fall on the four foot walking on the Waterloo concourse outside the barriers.

 

[pompeyfan]

I can’t help but feel there’s a part missing from the story. Sounds like the RCO went from 0-100 really quick. I would imagine the RCO was challenging you taking a picture because it may have looked like you were photographing security equipment such as CCTV cameras. Did they not say why they wanted your details?

 

[Tallguy]

Telling him to "shut up" just sounds a little rude and you wonder why they dispense attitude at times. Maybe they were just doing their job, maybe they were aware and on the look out for something you didn't know, nor need to know, about. If you'd fallen into the four foot as you'd walked away and you needed them they'd have been there to help you despite that. Showing a little respect, both ways I get that, goes a long way.

I was standing on the concourse at the station, nowhere near the tracks and not even in a compulsory ticket area. I was minding my own business, the Rail Community Officer came up to me demanding my details that I don’t have to give him. He wouldn’t take no for an answer and in my opinion was on an ego trip. He kicked off at me with attitude and wading in at full throttle, not the other way around, I therefore feel me telling him to ‘shut up’ was quite justified. I then walked off, he didn’t follow me.

 

[matt_world2004]

I can’t help but feel there’s a part missing from the story. Sounds like the RCO went from 0-100 really quick. I would imagine the RCO was challenging you taking a picture because it may have looked like you were photographing security equipment such as CCTV cameras. Did they not say why they wanted your details?

Even in the circumstances that the op was taking pictures of the CCTV the rail security officer would not have the power to demand their details. The BTP would not have the power to force them to explain their actions either, the police would have the power to detain them under anti terror legislation and possibly sieze their phone as evidence , or conduct a stop and search.but they would not be able to demand an name and address in those circumstances

 

[Tallguy]

I can’t help but feel there’s a part missing from the story. Sounds like the RCO went from 0-100 really quick. I would imagine the RCO was challenging you taking a picture because it may have looked like you were photographing security equipment such as CCTV cameras. Did they not say why they wanted your details?

Yes he said he wanted them for ‘investigation’. Perhaps he was suspicious of me taking pictures of the sun coming in through the roof, but even the Police can't demand my details under those circumstances..... There is no part missing to this story.

 

[philthetube]

Even in the circumstances that the op was taking pictures of the CCTV the rail security officer would not have the power to demand their details. The BTP would not have the power to force them to explain their actions either, the police would have the power to detain them under anti terror legislation and possibly sieze their phone as evidence , or conduct a stop and search.but they would not be able to demand an name and address in those circumstances

The BTP do have all the arrest powers of other forces, plus some other powers appertaining to the railway, suspecting someone of taking pictures of security equipment is plenty of cause do demand details, or even to arrest.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Let's go right back to the original post.

Hi. Can someone please explain the legal powers of a Rail Community Officer. I was challenged by one the other day who started demanding personal details (I was on railway property but not in a compulsory ticket area having finished my train journey for which I had a valid ticket). I refused to give my details at which point he said they were needed for an ‘investigation’. I refused again and he threatened me with arrest. I replied that he had no powers of arrest and told him to ‘shut up’ and walked off. He didn’t follow me.

I’d love to know what their role and powers actually are.

Given that the OP has needed to enquire after the event about the actual powers held by an RCO, it is a little surprising that (a) the OP was able to be so firm during the event

I was standing on the concourse at the station, nowhere near the tracks and not even in a compulsory ticket area. I was minding my own business, the Rail Community Officer came up to me demanding my details that I don’t have to give him. He wouldn’t take no for an answer and in my opinion was on an ego trip formed by the fancy dress outfit he was wearing. He kicked off at me with attitude and wading in at full throttle, not the other way around, I therefore feel me telling him to ‘shut up’ was quite justified. I then walked off, he didn’t follow me.

and (b) is so certain that posters here who are trying to help are at fault and haven't got the right answer.

 

[Tallguy]

Let's go right back to the original post.



Given that the OP has needed to enquire after the event about the actual powers held by an RCO, it is a little surprising that (a) the OP was able to be so firm during the event


and (b) is so certain that posters here who are trying to help are at fault and haven't got the right answer.

No. Some of the replies have failed to read my post and understood what I am looking for. One person started talking about inspection Of my ticket!

 

[Eloise]

Apologies from me, although new on here I have already picked up most things said are taken literally.

Back to the original question - you were on the concourse taking a pic and a Rail Community Officer queried what you were doing and demanded your details. Was said Rail Community Officer entitled to do so... Is that the exam question?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Assuming the Rail Community Officer was an accredited person for the purposes of the Railway Safety Accreditation Scheme Regulations 2004, I can't see that any relevant fixed penalty offence under the Regulations was being committed by the OP given the circumstances he describes. Neither were there any grounds, as far as I can tell, for there to be suspicion of breach of any Railway Byelaw.

Telling another person, be they an RCO, a police officer or whoever, to "shut up" is always just likely to cause aggravation, and is thus highly inadvisable. But it's not an offence on its own, and neither does it justify any further action being taken by the RCO.

In answer of OP's question, it doesn't appear that the RCO had any power to demand their name and address in the circumstances, but RCOs, if an accredited person under the above Regulations, do have powers greater than those bestowed upon other railway employees.

 

[Tallguy]

Apologies from me, although new on here I have already picked up most things said are taken literally.

Back to the original question - you were on the concourse taking a pic and a Rail Community Officer queried what you were doing and demanded your details. Was said Rail Community Officer entitled to do so... Is that the exam question?

Yes that is exactly the question, that and what powers does a Rail Community Officer actually hold. Thanks.

Assuming the Rail Community Officer was an accredited person for the purposes of the Railway Safety Accreditation Scheme Regulations 2004, I can't see that any relevant fixed penalty offence under the Regulations was being committed by the OP given the circumstances he describes. Neither were there any grounds, as far as I can tell, for there to be suspicion of breach of any Railway Byelaw.

Telling another person, be they an RCO, a police officer or whoever, to "shut up" is always just likely to cause aggravation, and is thus highly inadvisable. But it's not an offence on its own, and neither does it justify any further action being taken by the RCO.

In answer of OP's question, it doesn't appear that the RCO had any power to demand their name and address in the circumstances, but RCOs, if an accredited person under the above Regulations, do have powers greater than those bestowed upon other railway employees.

Your post is extremely helpful. Thank you. I totally agree that me telling the RCO to ‘shut up’ may have accelerated the situation, but he had gone from 0 to 100 in 3 seconds on an ego trip writing cheques that his powers and knowledge of the law couldn’t cash.

I have e mailed SWT asking for details of the powers of an RCO.

 

[cactustwirly]

The BTP do have all the arrest powers of other forces, plus some other powers appertaining to the railway, suspecting someone of taking pictures of security equipment is plenty of cause do demand details, or even to arrest.

Except BTP PCSOs have no such power, only a serving constable can demand details.