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Stagecoach legal action over franchise awards: Judgement now available

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hwl

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If that is indeed the case then on the face of it, it seems Stagecoach might ha e a strong case.
Arriva apparently took the same view as Stagecoach hence them going legal too.
 
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Robertj21a

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I'm just surprised that Stagecoach (and, presumably, Arriva) didn't put in a second bid at the same time which included a sizeable amount for the pension provision. I can only assume that they never expected anybody to put in a bid which took on the risk. In any event, it has always appeared that a lack of communication could be as much to blame as anything.
 

Meerkat

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I can only assume that they never expected anybody to put in a bid which took on the risk

That is my guess too.
You don’t want it as specced, you think everyone thinks that way, so you stick in a non-compliant bid thinking DfT will then have to choose between non-compliant bids.
Then some mug throws in a compliant one....
 

WatcherZero

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High Court has approved Stagecoach, Virgin and Arrivas’ legal challenge and it will now go to trial, DfT has lost their motion to dismiss.
 

DavidGrain

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This just got interesting. :D

If they win legal challenge on East Midlands Franchise what happens?

I do not see that they can unseat the the new franchisee so if the DfT lose they will have to pay compensation equal to the estimated profit that Stagecoach would have made for the length of the contract.
 

pt_mad

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High Court has approved Stagecoach, Virgin and Arrivas’ legal challenge and it will now go to trial, DfT has lost their motion to dismiss.
Is there a source? Also what would the potential implications of this be? Could it mean further delay in awarding the West Coast Partnership or could it mean the franchise tending process may have to start again?
 
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You never know the West Coast Partnership franchise might even end up being nationalised. Rail franchising is in a right complete mess.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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You never know the West Coast Partnership franchise might even end up being nationalised. Rail franchising is in a right complete mess.

Even LNER is privately run by a bunch of companies that the DfT appointed using OLR. West Coast could end up running as London Midland Scottish Railway either under OLR or under a restart of the competition (which I cannot see happening, I can though see Virgin still running it) but I do think that there is likely hood of that happening particularly South Eastern.
 

pt_mad

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You never know the West Coast Partnership franchise might even end up being nationalised. Rail franchising is in a right complete mess.
Wouldn't bank on it. Further direct awards would be more likely and even that I should imagine would be in very extreme circumstances. What do other posters think?
 

DynamicSpirit

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You never know the West Coast Partnership franchise might even end up being nationalised. Rail franchising is in a right complete mess.

It is indeed a complete mess. However, up until now, the sense I have is that the Tories have been so ideologically opposed to nationalisation that they will do anything to avoid it (other than as a very temporary measure). So my suspicion is that nationalisation is not going to be on the agenda, unless either we have a general election and the Tories lose or (maybe) if Boris Johnson changes direction.
 

WatcherZero

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Was in City AM Sunday.

Arriva have apparently set their damage claim at £200m.
 

pt_mad

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It is indeed a complete mess. However, up until now, the sense I have is that the Tories have been so ideologically opposed to nationalisation that they will do anything to avoid it (other than as a very temporary measure). So my suspicion is that nationalisation is not going to be on the agenda, unless either we have a general election and the Tories lose or (maybe) if Boris Johnson changes direction.
Exactly. Other than a franchise effectively going bust, why would they take the keys back when there's a profitable private operator running it already who could be given a direct award.
 

southernyoshi

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Boris Johnson cares about getting votes. Given that he was seemingly ok with TfL taking on more territory for London Overground, plus he’d be aware of how unpopular the current franchise system is (& how popular the idea of public ownership is) among the public, not to mention the complete mess of the current system & competitions. Throw in a chance to decidedly break from the Gr*yl*ng era, & I wouldn’t be too surprised to see him endorse some form of public ownership or partnership. Especially if he needs to win a pre-Brexit election, it could be enough to see off the Lib Dem threat (as he’d see it) in much of the south.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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Boris Johnson cares about getting votes. Given that he was seemingly ok with TfL taking on more territory for London Overground, plus he’d be aware of how unpopular the current franchise system is (& how popular the idea of public ownership is) among the public, not to mention the complete mess of the current system & competitions. Throw in a chance to decidedly break from the Gr*yl*ng era, & I wouldn’t be too surprised to see him endorse some form of public ownership or partnership. Especially if he needs to win a pre-Brexit election, it could be enough to see off the Lib Dem threat (as he’d see it) in much of the south.

I can see more devolution particularly after Williams Review, but more investment in rail is likely, in fact, would it be worth creating a separate thread for what Johnson Ministry will mean for rail?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Nationalise is the wrong word - that needs primary legislation which is not going to happen under the Tories.
Grant Shapps has a new team and they will probably reset the SE and WC franchise competitions for after Williams/Brexit.
In the meantime more direct awards kicks the can down the road, if the incumbents are interested - if not it's a temporary OLR setup like LNER.
The legal challenge is to either (a) be reinstated as bidders, or (b) get their bid costs back at least.
 

EE Andy b1

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Grant Shapps has a new team and they will probably reset the SE and WC franchise competitions for after Williams/Brexit.

Who do we think would bother bidding again for the WCP if reset after this farce and that of pensions?
 

Jorge Da Silva

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Nationalise is the wrong word - that needs primary legislation which is not going to happen under the Tories.
Grant Shapps has a new team and they will probably reset the SE and WC franchise competitions for after Williams/Brexit.
In the meantime more direct awards kicks the can down the road, if the incumbents are interested - if not it's a temporary OLR setup like LNER.
The legal challenge is to either (a) be reinstated as bidders, or (b) get their bid costs back at least.

East Midlands is too late I think to reset, so Stagecoach will get their money back. But Southeastern and West Coast will be halted I think and reset under Williams recommendations so Direct Awards or OLR it is.
 

StaffsWCML

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Who do we think would bother bidding again for the WCP if reset after this farce and that of pensions?

Hopefully the whole process will be reviewed after Williams. Its better to do that than award the franchises to someone likely to make them worse, which has happened in pretty much all recent franchise awards.
 

EE Andy b1

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Lets wait til Williams Review is finished who knows it may be a different process entirely.

Let's just hope he gets it right and the Dft take notice!

When is the Williams review due to be released, does anybody know, or is he away on holidays till September?
 

Tetchytyke

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Lets wait til Williams Review is finished who knows it may be a different process entirely.

I love this idea that the review is going to be anything other than a whitewash to let hirsute tax dodgers and moral-free evangelical Neil Sedaka fanatics continue to rinse us :lol:

Either we get more of the same, or we row back to 1996 and the glories of, er, Silverlink, Connex and SWT. Nothing else, nothing good, will ever come of privatisation.
 
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EE Andy b1

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I never was for privatisation....

But just think what investment would have gone into our railways if it was still British Railways with the purse strings fully controlled by Government!!

I don't think half the projects would have been done and our railways would have been in an even more shabby state.

If staff pay had not gone up as it has under privatisation, i don't think half of those working on the railways now would have been there.

So for privatisation out of 100, there's 98 bad points and 2 good. :frown::rolleyes:
 

StaffsWCML

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I love this idea that the review is going to be anything other than a whitewash to let hirsute tax dodgers and moral-free evangelical Neil Sedaka fanatics continue to rinse us :lol:

Either we get more of the same, or we row back to 1996 and the glories of, er, Silverlink, Connex and SWT. Nothing else, nothing good, will ever come of privatisation.

We may as well just shut the lot down then because nothing good will ever come of letting incompetent governments run things incompetently! :rolleyes:

We could go back to the 'good ol days' of letting the unions run the show under a Labour government, strikes and strikes and if your lucky more strikes.:lol:
 

31160

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We may as well just shut the lot down then because nothing good will ever come of letting incompetent governments run things incompetently! :rolleyes:

We could go back to the 'good ol days' of letting the unions run the show under a Labour government, strikes and strikes and if your lucky more strikes.:lol:
Yeah because currently one thing of note is there are no strikes at all.... oh hang on!
 

HH

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Williams Review is set for October. Might be a small event in that month that gets in the way though...

P.S. Most strikes have come about through government intervention...
 

PR1Berske

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We may as well just shut the lot down then because nothing good will ever come of letting incompetent governments run things incompetently! :rolleyes:

We could go back to the 'good ol days' of letting the unions run the show under a Labour government, strikes and strikes and if your lucky more strikes.:lol:

That's the inconvenient truth often ignored by nationalisation supporters. Government ownership means less money, less investment, less modernisation, higher taxes, and Union strongarm tactics (see RMT up north for a taste of that!)

Privatisation has given us more stations, more lines, more up to date stock, and in some cases, greater choice of routes. There is no going back to state run railways.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Not sure if this has been noted before, but according to The Times the trial of this case is set for January, and Chris Grayling and Peter Wilkinson (DfT franchising director) are expected to be called as witnesses.
Meanwhile apparently the South Eastern franchise competition has been cancelled with Govia getting an extension.
Not sure if anything has been decided about West Coast.
 

Failed Unit

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Not sure if this has been noted before, but according to The Times the trial of this case is set for January, and Chris Grayling and Peter Wilkinson (DfT franchising director) are expected to be called as witnesses.
Meanwhile apparently the South Eastern franchise competition has been cancelled with Govia getting an extension.
Not sure if anything has been decided about West Coast.

That would be an interesting situation if it is cancelled, as pushing ahead with East Midlands (which we are past the point of no return) will basically play into the hands of awarding Stagecoach / Arriva the damages.

The BBC article is unclear as they are re-hashing the fact west coast was cancelled in 2012 but dont mention the latest farce.
 
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