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Rail Delivery Group removing jargon from tickets

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furlong

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Many outboundary travelcards are routed Any Permitted though....
No different from any other ticket where they might similarly attempt to add via points to get away with removing permitted routes while making this change.
 
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Hadders

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Indeed. We need to resist these changes.
 

Wallsendmag

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Printing "See website" on the ticket will be useless to people like little old Doris who don't own a computer so can't look up ticket restrictions online. As much information should be printed as possible.

As for those who want to travel a reasonable but unpermitted route, if the ticket doesn't say no then who is to say so?
DORIS will tell you all the restrictions lol
 

kieron

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  • Manchester to Head Green 'route direct' becomes <blank> - these are adjacent stations, however the current tickets are in any case routed 'any permitted'
  • Inverkeithing to Glenagles 'route direct'becomes 'via Kirkcaldy' - again, this is already routed 'via Kirkcaldy'. Note that: (a) there is no walk-up ticket routed via Haymarket, which may be the fastest route. (b) the obvious route of Inverkeithing - Dundee - Gleneagles is NOT permitted on a 'via Kirkcaldy' ticket, even though it goes, er, via Kirkcaldy. NRE offers today 16:57 via Perth arriving 18:28, 17:03 arr. 18:35 via haymarket 17:20 arr 19:25 via Haymarket (though they suggest changing at Edinburgh, for reasons that aren't obvious to me) 18:05 arr. 19:57 via Haymarket then 19:01 via Perth arr. 20:25. So there is a two hour gap in between trains for which they would sell you a ticket.
The text at the start of the table says this is a comparison with before February 2017.

They list Manchester Airport to Heald Green rather than Manchester to Heald Green. This had a "direct" route until last September. The stations are not on the same line, of course.

Inverkeithing to Gleneagles is probably there as an example of a route which had a "direct" fare, but where the most direct route by rail was not obvious, and not all that direct. The irregular timetable at Gleneagles means that the fastest train could take all sorts of different route.

It seems a bit awkward to me as an example, as ticket sites offer "AP Scotrail only" tickets on routes they wouldn't offer a "via Kirkcaldy" one on (even if they don't offer either via Dundee).
So basically where there is only one permitted route, they remove 'any permitted' and 'route direct', and where there is only one permitted terminal (rare I think?) they change to that one terminal.

And rather than say 'route direct' they say 'via x'. Which they can do anyway.

I'm not really sure it achieves much simplification though.
They can only do what they can do. They haven't sought extra powers for these changes.

The thrust of this exercise seems to be to make it easier for the customer to choose the correct ticket. If you wish to travel between Hartford and St. Helens Central, a rail ticket which is only valid via Warrington probably isn't the one you want. You're more likely to realise this if it says "via Warrington" on it rather than if it says "direct" on it, but is still only valid via Warrington.

There are a lot of things the measures described in this press release haven't done, as you say.
 

Starmill

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"Any Permitted" is pointless, it implies any route is permitted
It was already blank if you bought a ticket from a Northern Parkeon machine, and has been since 2014. They suppressed route Any Permitted so that nothing appeared when the new design of tickets was introduced. This was the BR approach, too.

Of course, Northern have now undone this feature for tickets where they've changed the route to 01000, deciding that rather than printing nothing at all for a route, as before, they should print just a dot.

Also, 'Any Permitted' does not imply that any route is permitted. I have never met or heard of any case where anyone who genuinely thought that, and a moment's thought reveals that. It's made quite clear by the text on all tickets 'This ticket is valid by any permitted route unless otherwise stated...'
 

Starmill

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Many outboundary travelcards are routed Any Permitted though....
Some outboundary Travelcards are routed nonsensical things which have no effect and are genuinely confusing, because they add a restriction within the Travelcard Zones (notwithstanding that this is probably not permitted under the Travelcard Agreement).

Examples include Zones 1-6 Travelcards from Weybridge routed 'via Surbiton' and tickets from Ockendon routed 'via Upminster'.

These are perfect examples of where genuine simplification could and should take place - these route restrictions should be abolished. They are oxymoronic and serve no purpose other than to create confusion, so you would think that as an exercise in simplification they would be a very easy win. And yet I do not see RDG doing anything on this account. I wonder why that might be?
 

35B

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Some outboundary Travelcards are routed nonsensical things which have no effect and are genuinely confusing, because they add a restriction within the Travelcard Zones (notwithstanding that this is probably not permitted under the Travelcard Agreement).

Examples include Zones 1-6 Travelcards from Weybridge routed 'via Surbiton' and tickets from Ockendon routed 'via Upminster'.

These are perfect examples of where genuine simplification could and should take place - these route restrictions should be abolished. They are oxymoronic and serve no purpose other than to create confusion, so you would think that as an exercise in simplification they would be a very easy win. And yet I do not see RDG doing anything on this account. I wonder why that might be?
Those seem like very poor examples - in both cases the specified route is the shortest and most direct to get within the zones. Surbiton and Upminster are both the boundary stations, so all the restriction is doing is preventing travel via Virginia Water and Grays respectively.
 

Starmill

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all the restriction is doing is preventing travel via Virginia Water and Grays respectively.
It does not do that though. A route Surbiton ticket is quite valid via Virginia Water, so long as in theory you go via Surbiton later in the journey, which of course is covered by the Travelcard.
 

Paul Kelly

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Examples include Zones 1-6 Travelcards from Weybridge routed 'via Surbiton' and tickets from Ockendon routed 'via Upminster'.
At least there are some valid journeys on those Travelcards. A much worse example is those routed VIA BARKING, e.g. this one from Southend: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=SOC&dest=0035&rte=112&tkt=ODT

As there is an ANY PERMITTED version at the same price it doesn't cause any issues in practice, but it's not possible to make a journey from Southend Central to the boundary of Zone 6 that otherwise stays outside the zones but goes via Barking (which is in Zone 4), so there are no possible permitted routes to get to the boundary of Zone 6 on those fares!
 

Bletchleyite

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Is it not the case that if you have a routed fare where the route point doesn't appear on a Permitted Route, you instead generate Permitted Routes to that intermediate point then separately generate those onward from there to the destination?
 

Kite159

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I'm not sure it does. I'm not aware of any remaining route direct tickets.

I see a the Edinburgh - Carstairs tickets has been changed from "Route Direct" to "NOT VIA MTHR". I assume MTHR is meant to be Motherwell but that printed on a ticket would be more confusing
 

najaB

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Or they could consider having a piece of software that would generate the full set of Permitted Routes for a given pair of stations (not the junk I think they do have that generates only what a journey planner will give you without putting something in the via box)
I believe that people who have attempted this in the past are still receiving regular counselling. It's a *lot* harder a problem than it initially appears to be.
 

infobleep

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Any Permitted doesn't necessarily need replacing with anything - just leave it blank.

Anyone reckon they will try to put London Euston on WCML tickets, some of which can presently be used to Marylebone or St Pancras? This I think would also prevent excessing to the other route.
I've not got round to posting this example on here, with photos but back in May, towards the end, I wanted to purchase a single ticket from Guildford to Sandshurst. I had two options Any permitted and . [dot - to help those searching in future]. I don't know how many routes exist to Sandhurst as I didn't look it up. I just purchased the cheapest ticket. I was taking the direct train anyway.

The issue with removing any permitted is that the TMVs need to display something and/or the backend systems need to hold something, so they use . . This isn't helpful to passengers. There again neither is the choice of any permitted or . .
 

MikeWh

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It does not do that though. A route Surbiton ticket is quite valid via Virginia Water, so long as in theory you go via Surbiton later in the journey, which of course is covered by the Travelcard.
Have you managed to get a journey planner to provide an itinerary for that?

They could use route WALTON-ON-THAMES, but I do feel that using the first station within the zones as the via point is quite acceptable. I certainly wouldn't want to be using a route SURBITON ticket on a train via Virginia Water; you might be able to convince an inspector that it is valid, but it would be a lengthy discussion and would ruin the journey. Another issue is that via suggests travelling through a station. To travel through Surbiton having been via Virginia Water would require you to be going to either Thames Ditton or Hampton Court.
 

Muzer

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I see a the Edinburgh - Carstairs tickets has been changed from "Route Direct" to "NOT VIA MTHR". I assume MTHR is meant to be Motherwell but that printed on a ticket would be more confusing
No, it means you're not allowed to go via the town where your mum lives! :D
 

infobleep

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For example, if you are buying a ticket Woking - Hampton, then you have a choice of:

£8.90 'not via Clapham J' anytime day single
£9.50 'Clapham J not Ldn' anytime day single
£10 'not via Clapham J' super off peak day return
£11.70 'Clapham J not Ldn' super off peak day return
£12.60 'not via Clapham J' off peak day return
£14.80 'Clapham J not Ldn' off peak day return
£15.20 'London not Und' anytime day single
£16 'London not Und' super off peak day return
£16 'not via Clapham J' anytime day return
£18.20 'Clapham J Not Ldn' anytime day return
£19.30 superoffpeak day travelcard
£20.40 'London Not Und' offpeak day return
£24.10 off-peak day travelcard
£28 'London not Und' anytime day return
£30.50 anytime day travelcard

Not to mention

Woking - BZ6
£6.80 anytime day single
£7.80 super offpeak day return
£9.90 offpeak day return
£12.10 anytime day return

plus t/c
£12.70 off-peak day
£18.10 anytime day

and other undocumented possibilities, such as split ticketing and Oyster and what not.

The choices are brutally consumer-hostile, as you might not even know which train you are going to catch when standing in front of the machine at Woking, let alone on your return journey hours later (oh, trains to Woking don't call at Clapham Junction for several hours during the peak? Nice.), and then if you buy the 'Clapham J Not Ldn' super off peak ticket you can't use it in the evening peak, but if you buy the 'Not Via Clapham J' ticket you can.

The proposal doesn't address this issue of decision paralysis at the ticket machine - such complexity can only be addressed with a smartcard system.
Thats interesting. You didn't include the return fares in your list only day returns. As a dyslexic person, having the terms return and day return is confusing. You have to stop and think for longer than you otherwise would.

I wonder if in 2018, 10 years on, they would take into account people with dyslexia, if doing a simplification of wording process?
 

Clip

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Thats interesting. You didn't include the return fares in your list only day returns. As a dyslexic person, having the terms return and day return is confusing. You have to stop and think for longer than you otherwise would.

I wonder if in 2018, 10 years on, they would take into account people with dyslexia, if doing a simplification of wording process?

I think there are only day returns on this kind of journey.
 

soil

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Thats interesting. You didn't include the return fares in your list only day returns. As a dyslexic person, having the terms return and day return is confusing. You have to stop and think for longer than you otherwise would.

I wonder if in 2018, 10 years on, they would take into account people with dyslexia, if doing a simplification of wording process?

The lack of period returns adds another layer of complexity. If you miss the last train or for whatever reason decide to stay out a bit later or whatever then your journey becomes two singles, even if you have already bought a return. A 7pm - 7am journey costs more than a 7am - 7pm journey even though the latter is 'peak' and the former off-peak.
 

The Ham

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One problem with this is that it could result in more ticket types.

Take for instance Farnborough stations to Reading, this is valid via Basingstoke or via Wokingham. This could result in two tickets one which is valid one way and one which is valid the other. Possibly for the same cost or would you change the price of one so as to ensure people knew which one they had. If you did you'd probably make via Basingstoke more expensive as tickets from the other stations on the SWML are more expensive than buying a ticket from Farnborough to Reading.

However with only hourly trains between Reading and Farnborough North, if you can't get someone to pick you up from Blackwater, it can be quicker going via Basingstoke. Which may mean you do so going one way but not the other (especially if one direction is during the peak when there's more trains to Farnborough North).

Once you've fixed that one, how about Working to Reading which is valid via Guildford and via Basingstoke?

Neither route is very attractive, but as a season ticket is cheaper than Basingstoke to Woking. Yet routing guidelines isn't going to fix that loophole unless you increase the ticket price too match. However you may as well but the Woking to Reading via Basingstoke ticket if you live in Basingstoke (even if you live in Woking it's probably worth doing) as you would then have free travel to Reading any time you wanted to use it. Which would significantly reduce your XC ticket prices for heading north.

However having fixed those two tickets you've now potentially increased the number of tickets available by two. Repeat that another few hundred times and you've made the numbers of tickets available increase and made it more confusing for rail users.

If you go the other way and provide a simple to use website defining ticket routing then chances are you'll end up with more split tickets as it becomes easier to find the routes with the cheap tickets. Especially if you fix some of the complications by removing some of the cheaper options.

Also if you remove too many cheap options then it could lead to the loss of passengers and therefore revenue. It could be better in a lot of cases just to accept that there's a loophole, reduce all (or at least have a two route ticket options and have the tickets priced accordingly) tickets accordingly and hope that the cheaper tickets encourages more people to travel by train to make up at least most of the shortfall.
 

greyman42

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It doesn't say they're going to limit existing X to London Terminals to a single London terminus. It says



It's already the case that a Maidenhead to London Terminals ticket can't get to any London terminus apart from Paddington, so what's the harm in making the ticket say so?
So what would a York to London ticket say regarding the terminus?
 

mildertduck

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Could they not simply do what OwlMan's spreadsheet says, and write:
"London: KGX/MOG/OLD/STP/LST"

The three-letter codes are sensible, and easily searchable.

Incidentally... I think OwlMan's sheet has actually removed some validity, unless I'm reading it wrong, as it doesn't show STP or LST for York :s
 

JB_B

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On 16/12/2017 RDG took the view that the appropriate London terminals for any permitted from York were


Kings Cross
Liverpool Street
Moorgate
Old Street
St Pancras


As far as I can see that is correct answer (in the sense that the permitted routes from York for route:any permitted run to these terminals.)


By 23/12/2017 RDG had slashed many hundreds of terminals from the London Terminals feed and for this route were only offering

Kings Cross
Moorgate
Old Street

You can see from the spreadsheet that OwlMan was kind enough to post up-thread that this remains the case today.

Would anyone from RDG/TOCs be able to comment on why so many terminals were removed? - I know a few have been added back since but not many.

Is this simply incomptetence, a deliberate attempt to pass-off a major reduction in ticket flexibility as 'simplification' or could it be something else?
 

mildertduck

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It's a bit odd, as the Routeing Guide has maps AY, EY and KY; so are there no valid tickets via mapped routes on EY and KY?

Also, what ticket would be valid on the East Midlands trains York - St Pancras direct train, unless there's a separate "York to St Pancras" price hidden somewhere...
 
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