Rail Fares facing a near 4% hike in January 2018

[yorksrob]

I'm confused by your first paragraph; Central Government de-regulated buses in the 1980s - not PTEs!

I never said anything about money finding its way into bus users pockets; my concern is purely revenue abstraction accelerating the spiral of bus service cuts. FTR, there also seems to be a change in pricing policy, as I thought all individual rail fares - certainly off-peak - worked on the basis of Returns being a token 10p more than singles. However, when I arrived at my local station this morning, a sudden 7 minute delay on the incoming train meant I stood in the booking office out of the rain. In the few minutes after the train should have departed, four passengers turned up; one had a pre-paid ticket; one bought a Day Return to Manchester (after complaining she had been told the fare rises weren't happening!) at £4.10; but the other two (arriving seperately) bought singles at just £3.30. For comparison, the equivalent bus fares are £3.50 single and £4.50 DaySaver.

Yes, it was Central Government (apologies - my typo)

Perhaps if bus companies tried selling return fares at a decent discount, compared to the single - as opposed to the old scam of not offering return tickets - just an expensive "all day rover" on the pretence that everyone wants to travel around and around on the bus all day, they might generate some more revenue. Perhaps if they came to agreements with their fellow companies, meaning that their rovers and tickets could be used on each-others buses, that might also generate more passenger use, and might arrest the decline in non-London bus usage that predates the PTE's. No - they'd rather press the Government to hobble the opposition.

It's a shame that Government has fallen for the bus companies sob story that their problems are down to rail fares.

 

[Dentonian]

Yes, it was Central Government (apologies - my typo)

Perhaps if bus companies tried selling return fares at a decent discount, compared to the single - as opposed to the old scam of not offering return tickets - just an expensive "all day rover" on the pretence that everyone wants to travel around and around on the bus all day, they might generate some more revenue. Perhaps if they came to agreements with their fellow companies, meaning that their rovers and tickets could be used on each-others buses, that might also generate more passenger use, and might arrest the decline in non-London bus usage that predates the PTE's. No - they'd rather press the Government to hobble the opposition.

It's a shame that Government has fallen for the bus companies sob story that their problems are down to rail fares.

I agree with the sentiments regarding Returns v. Day Rovers, but come on, you know they can't come to agreements with "fellow" companies. Before the latter gave up running buses, the MMC contacted Stagecoach Manchester and Maynes for an explanation simply because managers of the two companies were seen in a pub together! The only exception allowed was the recently split 22 service which was originally registered by GM Buses. When the company was (forcibly) split in 1993, it as accepted that it was uncommercial for either company to continue running it individually, so each was allowed to accept each others tickets.
Even on tendered services, where one company runs the daytime journeys and another has evening and/or Sunday tenders, GMPTE/ITA/TFGM have been told more than once that they cannot put acceptance of other Operators tickets into the contract. The MMC/OFT (as was) argue that it is "anti-competitive" and that it is presumed to cost the tax-payer extra. They presumably also pointed to the "System One" range of all operator tickets, as a way of keeping fares down.

I don't know how much influence Operators had over the change in policy, bearing in mind Leeds and Manchester were specifically identified, but you are conveniently ignoring the fact we are talking about heavily subsidised rail services abstracting from commercial bus services, and certainly in the case of Manchester, rail passengers would benefit from people returning to buses, because their trains would be less overcrowded! Further, until these recent rounds "correcting" the imbalance, it was rail routes where parallel bus services had recently disappeared or greatly reduced (Wigan to Manchester for instance), that saw the biggest fare increases. So again, rail users lose out in the end.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree with the sentiments regarding Returns v. Day Rovers, but come on, you know they can't come to agreements with "fellow" companies. Before the latter gave up running buses, the MMC contacted Stagecoach Manchester and Maynes for an explanation simply because managers of the two companies were seen in a pub together! The only exception allowed was the recently split 22 service which was originally registered by GM Buses. When the company was (forcibly) split in 1993, it as accepted that it was uncommercial for either company to continue running it individually, so each was allowed to accept each others tickets.
Even on tendered services, where one company runs the daytime journeys and another has evening and/or Sunday tenders, GMPTE/ITA/TFGM have been told more than once that they cannot put acceptance of other Operators tickets into the contract. The MMC/OFT (as was) argue that it is "anti-competitive" and that it is presumed to cost the tax-payer extra. They presumably also pointed to the "System One" range of all operator tickets, as a way of keeping fares down.

I don't know how much influence Operators had over the change in policy, bearing in mind Leeds and Manchester were specifically identified, but you are conveniently ignoring the fact we are talking about heavily subsidised rail services abstracting from commercial bus services, and certainly in the case of Manchester, rail passengers would benefit from people returning to buses, because their trains would be less overcrowded! Further, until these recent rounds "correcting" the imbalance, it was rail routes where parallel bus services had recently disappeared or greatly reduced (Wigan to Manchester for instance), that saw the biggest fare increases. So again, rail users lose out in the end.

So to avoid large fare increases, we have to accept 31% increases over two years. I'm afraid I'm not really getting that. The train fares on my route were very stable until someone took the political decision to hike up fares at the behest of the bus companies. Because of them we're all paying higher fares, not just bus passengers.

All this talk of "commercial" bus services verses "heavily" subsidised rail services is idealogical guff. I travel on buses where there is no rail competition and (surprise surprise) the fares are extortionate. The cheap rail fares at least forced the bus companies to exercise some price restraint. Unfortunately, now that they have been freed from effective price competition by the railways, the bus companies will be free to hike up their fares as much as they like. All public transport users will suffer.

 

[Starmill]

FTR, there also seems to be a change in pricing policy, as I thought all individual rail fares - certainly off-peak - worked on the basis of Returns being a token 10p more than singles.

This is common but it's not universal. It typically did not apply as closely in PTE areas. Also, it has been common for TOCs to delete CDS fares recently in place of increasing SDS fares. This produces a situation whereby the CDR and the SDS are similar, with the latter perhaps just 10-50 pence (it has never been a "flat" 10p) but the SDR fare is more.

Historically, the convention in Greater Manchester always seemed to me and everyone I know who uses public transport is that trains were the cheapest and worst mode, while trams were the most expensive and best.

GWR and GC offer single fares at far less. If you compare a Day single to a period return, which you might find is the only possible comparison (e.g. lots of long-distance ATW flows) then the difference is likely to be very large, for example £41 for a Manchester to Hereford SDS and £55.60 for an SVR.

 

[Dentonian]

So to avoid large fare increases, we have to accept 31% increases over two years. I'm afraid I'm not really getting that. The train fares on my route were very stable until someone took the political decision to hike up fares at the behest of the bus companies. Because of them we're all paying higher fares, not just bus passengers.

All this talk of "commercial" bus services verses "heavily" subsidised rail services is idealogical guff. I travel on buses where there is no rail competition and (surprise surprise) the fares are extortionate. The cheap rail fares at least forced the bus companies to exercise some price restraint. Unfortunately, now that they have been freed from effective price competition by the railways, the bus companies will be free to hike up their fares as much as they like. All public transport users will suffer.

There are clearly different opinions within the industry. From your comments, it sounds like the "Bus Operators" might have had more influence in Leeds than in Manchester. The circumstances identified in the 2014/15 Consultation specifically referred to "short" journeys into Leeds and Manchester. No mention of Newcastle, Hull, York, Sheffield, Liverpool, Preston etc. So, I'm guessing in your case the "competition" is First Yorkshire. The problem with commercial bus companies (certainly in GM) is that they do NOT see rail (heavy or light) as the competition. They see other bus companies as competition and (30 years too late) perversely now see the private car as competition.

As for "idealogical guff" comment, that is obviously a matter we aren't going to agree on.

 

[Dentonian]

This is common but it's not universal. It typically did not apply as closely in PTE areas. Also, it has been common for TOCs to delete CDS fares recently in place of increasing SDS fares. This produces a situation whereby the CDR and the SDS are similar, with the latter perhaps just 10-50 pence (it has never been a "flat" 10p) but the SDR fare is more.

Historically, the convention in Greater Manchester always seemed to me and everyone I know who uses public transport is that trains were the cheapest and worst mode, while trams were the most expensive and best.
.

The only route I have used regularly in one direction - though not for a few years, is Airport to Piccadilly, and this always used to be just 10p different. The same applied to Wigan to Manchester, albeit that was only for research purposes, as I would either buy a return or the old DayRanger to include Bolton in my wanderings. Interestingly, I have just checked Wigan and found there is still just the 10p difference. Weirdly though, you now pay £6.30 Off-peak return for any train, but only £5.50 if you stick to TPE! Hmm, do I pay extra for the option of a slow, uncomfortable (and probably less punctual) Pacer, or worse still Sprinter, or do I restrict myself to a fast, comfortable Class 170 or 185?.....

Whilst I would agree Heavy Rail is the cheapest of the three modes - certainly off-peak and for shorter journeys - I'm not sure tram is the most expensive. Yes, it might be for peak hour journeys in/out of Manchester, but on the Airport line, the fares south of Chorlton at least, are notably cheaper than buses. As for "worst", it all depends how you measure things, and there is a wide variety on buses. Buses are obviously the slowest, but trams are the most uncomfortable. In terms of reliability (ie. how big the inconvenience is if the service fails), then buses must be best - I think Stagecoach still perform better than First & Arriva in this context. Punctuality, difficult to say other than both buses and trains are deteriorating.

Your comment "everyone I know who uses public transport" is interesting, given you infer buses are in the middle on all criteria. Of course, despite recent trends, almost 80% of public transport journeys within GM are still by bus, and it is the only available form of public transport to large swathes of the population. Things have probably changed now, but I remember a report on Hattersley Station usage in (about) 1995/6, which monitored travelling habits. Bearing in mind Hattersley is unusual in being a deprived overspill Council estate with a rail station, and not a big one at that, with a population of 7500-8000 ish. This study was apparantly comprehensive and it concluded that 97% of the population had NEVER caught a train from the station in the 12 month study period.