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Rail Fares facing a near 4% hike in January 2018

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Kite159

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But those same commuters will still be saving money by living outside London (i.e reduced housing costs).

And the usual "it's cheaper to fly from Newcastle to London via Spain" rubbish has come out, comparing the price of an walk-up ticket to the price of prebooked flights valid on those flights only
 
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swt_passenger

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September - inflation rate announced - predictable scary articles about January fare rises
Early December - fares appear in retail systems and predictable articles are updated with figures
January 1st - fares take effect. Completely ignore the possibility that anyone with their head screwed on bought their annual season last week.
Repeat every year until bored...
 
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yorksrob

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Er. No!
1. The competing bus services are commercial ie. the only "subsidy" is to Concessionary passengers, who in most cases here in GM would qualify for the same Concessions on Rail/Metrolink - except that most can't reach rail modes without a car! Further, those full fare paying passengers are paying (via the bus companies) VED, Fuel Tax, Tax on profits and Facility charges at bus stations.
2. If you combine the policy of rail being used to abstract from buses instead of from private transport with the crazy economics of all road based transport (outside Gtr. London), then it can ultimately only result in increased car ownership*, exponential increase in car usage and increases in socio-economic exclusion for those that cannot drive (or walk long distances regularly) for reasons of health and/or wealth.

You are right in that the Deregulation experiment has failed, but that doesn't excuse "collateral", civilian casualties.
Like the vast majority of non motorists, I had virtually no experience of local rail until relatively late in life, so I don't know how commuter fares compared with buses before the last decade or so. The presumption was that historically, rail fares were higher than bus fares on competing short runs (eg. 5 miles or less), even off-peak. On some lines into Manchester (and Leeds?) they were considerably lower by the early 2010s, and even with "preposterous" increases, off-peak fares remain lower into 2018. The table above detailing annual fare increases doesn't come anywhere near the present day, so I can't calculate how much Rail fares have increased since 1986/7, but single fares in GM (except where there is bus v bus competition) have increased exactly ten fold journeys under 2.5 miles. I believe Inflation over that period has been about 270% and car fuel costs have increased fractionally below general inflation, though insurance and other *fixed* costs might have increased much more.

Er, I'm not sure why I should care less that rail operations are undercutting some bus services, just because they're commercial. If bus companies are that commercially minded, perhaps they should concentrate on markets that aren't served by rail.

It sounds like the private sector squealing that it isn't able to cherry-pick the best routes for once and government capitulating.
 

SAPhil

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But those same commuters will still be saving money by living outside London (i.e reduced housing costs).
It is hardly saving money. I don't choose or necessarily wish to live outside London, I simply can't afford to live in London - but that is where my job is.
For many people (not fortunately myself) each additional fare rise causes real difficulties.

January 1st - fares take effect. Completely ignore the possibility that anyone with their head screwed on bought their annual season last week.
So what? in a year's time they will still be faced by this increase and I'm prepared to bet that most people won't have had a 4% pay rise.
 

Moonshot

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It is hardly saving money. I don't choose or necessarily wish to live outside London, I simply can't afford to live in London - but that is where my job is.
For many people (not fortunately myself) each additional fare rise causes real difficulties.


So what? in a year's time they will still be faced by this increase and I'm prepared to bet that most people won't have had a 4% pay rise.

This is probably true, but if you accept the fact that regulated fares are a stealth tax, I suspect this would be balanced out by an increase in personal tax allowance.
 

roversfan2001

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Just been checking BRFares to see the increases on some of the fares I use frequently, it's not making for pretty reading. All have increased by somewhere between 5% and 8%...
 

IanD

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Completely ignore the possibility that anyone with their head screwed on bought their annual season last week.

Maybe anyone whose ticket was due for renewal but what about those renewing in February, March April.... Renewing months early will save nothing.

In the end, anyone who wants to continue commuting by rail will have to pay the increased prices at some point.
 

Moonshot

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Just been checking BRFares to see the increases on some of the fares I use frequently, it's not making for pretty reading. All have increased by somewhere between 5% and 8%...

Will it actually stop you using the train though ?
 

Moonshot

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No it won't but that's not really relevant, it's still a huge rise to occur in one go.

Judging by the amount of press and protests generated today, I would say its very relevant. You would have to wonder what would happen to fare prices if it was possible for TOCS to compete with each other for business and take the entire financial risk themselves. Obviously not going to happen any time soon , but still..
 

swt_passenger

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Maybe anyone whose ticket was due for renewal but what about those renewing in February, March April.... Renewing months early will save nothing.

In the end, anyone who wants to continue commuting by rail will have to pay the increased prices at some point.

Agree, but the media does seem to report on the basis that everyone buys there annuals at the beginning of January. I expect it suits their purposes better.
 

Tetchytyke

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But those same commuters will still be saving money by living outside London (i.e reduced housing costs).

Very often they don't save money. I just about broke even in Hemel Hempstead, but I lived there due to other circumstances. Seeing what the ticketing costs now, I wouldn't be breaking even.

3.4% when average wage rises are barely half that is obscene. But someone has to pay the directors' bonuses...
 

Dave242

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In the case of Southern, where do people think the money comes from when the drivers get a £14,000 pay rise
 

Dentonian

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Er, I'm not sure why I should care less that rail operations are undercutting some bus services, just because they're commercial. If bus companies are that commercially minded, perhaps they should concentrate on markets that aren't served by rail.

It sounds like the private sector squealing that it isn't able to cherry-pick the best routes for once and government capitulating.

I didn't say you should care less, and indeed the "private sector" probably don't care less. Only the people that need the threatened bus service(s) care less - but they don't count. Of course, when I say "commercial" bus service, I'm talking of their status since 26/10/86 - the routes themselves have been in existence for a lot longer; up to a century in some cases, run by (proper) trams before buses, and even trolleybuses in some cases.
 

Dentonian

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Very often they don't save money. I just about broke even in Hemel Hempstead, but I lived there due to other circumstances. Seeing what the ticketing costs now, I wouldn't be breaking even.

3.4% when average wage rises are barely half that is obscene. But someone has to pay the directors' bonuses...

I'm sure adult bus passengers can only dream of the day (well, year) when their fares rises are restricted to a mere 3.4%. Round here, it was 7.4% last April and another 4.7% (Day ticket) or 8.7% (Single) from today.
 

yorksrob

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I didn't say you should care less, and indeed the "private sector" probably don't care less. Only the people that need the threatened bus service(s) care less - but they don't count. Of course, when I say "commercial" bus service, I'm talking of their status since 26/10/86 - the routes themselves have been in existence for a lot longer; up to a century in some cases, run by (proper) trams before buses, and even trolleybuses in some cases.

But are the threatened bus services the same ones which the railway is supposedly undercutting, or are they the ones that the bus companies would like to cherry pick for themselves ? I suspect that you can make life as easy for the bus companies on their favourite routes as they want, and they will still pull the towel from under routes they consider unprofitable. I see no justification for my off peak return to go from £4.40 to £6.30 (an increase of 31%) in two years to help the bus bandits.
 

Starmill

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I'm sure adult bus passengers can only dream of the day (well, year) when their fares rises are restricted to a mere 3.4%. Round here, it was 7.4% last April and another 4.7% (Day ticket) or 8.7% (Single) from today.
My most commonly purchased train ticket went up by a little over 10%. It has increased by well over 100% in 3 years. 3.4% would be a dream.
 

Dentonian

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But are the threatened bus services the same ones which the railway is supposedly undercutting, or are they the ones that the bus companies would like to cherry pick for themselves ? I suspect that you can make life as easy for the bus companies on their favourite routes as they want, and they will still pull the towel from under routes they consider unprofitable. I see no justification for my off peak return to go from £4.40 to £6.30 (an increase of 31%) in two years to help the bus bandits.

Your suspicions are partly right, but my anger at your comments (and this is indicative of many people nowadays) is that you are happy to have "civilian casualties", if it means sticking one on the nose of "Bus bandits". This was a feature in the TIF referendum, albeit their propoganda was out and out lies. We seem to have this (Media driven?) attitude that cars contain "poor motorists"; Trains/trams contain hard working commuters; Buses contain.........well, nobodies.

As a matter of interest, how does your £6.30 off-peak return compare to the "competing" bus service?
 

Dentonian

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My most commonly purchased train ticket went up by a little over 10%. It has increased by well over 100% in 3 years. 3.4% would be a dream.

Noting that you are located in "Manchester", can I ask what journey you make...................and has a parrallel or similar bus service been withdrawn in that 3 years, per chance?
 

yorksrob

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Your suspicions are partly right, but my anger at your comments (and this is indicative of many people nowadays) is that you are happy to have "civilian casualties", if it means sticking one on the nose of "Bus bandits". This was a feature in the TIF referendum, albeit their propoganda was out and out lies. We seem to have this (Media driven?) attitude that cars contain "poor motorists"; Trains/trams contain hard working commuters; Buses contain.........well, nobodies.

As a matter of interest, how does your £6.30 off-peak return compare to the "competing" bus service?

I don't understand your point. If the train companies are undercutting bus routes, those "civilian casualties" as you put it, will catch the train instead. If they don't, it probably means that the train isn't a practical alternative for that market, so the bus bandits don't have any competition for it.
 

Starmill

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Have fares gone up by more on Southern than other rail companies?
They have if GTR have decided to amend the TOC code of your service from SN to TL or SN to GX (despite the fact that this does not have any influence over anything except the colour of the train). Some people will have experienced huge increases as a result of this.
 

infobleep

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September - inflation rate announced - predictable scary articles about January fare rises
Early December - fares appear in retail systems and predictable articles are updated with figures
January 1st - fares take effect. Completely ignore the possibility that anyone with their head screwed on bought their annual season last week.
Repeat every year until bored...
Will they ever get bored? Probably not as it's too infrequent a story.
 

BigCj34

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It looks like the government has done enough to make the fare payer pay a greater portion than the taxpayer does towards the cost of the railway. Why don't they increase fuel duty once in a while?
 

Dentonian

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I don't understand your point. If the train companies are undercutting bus routes, those "civilian casualties" as you put it, will catch the train instead. If they don't, it probably means that the train isn't a practical alternative for that market, so the bus bandits don't have any competition for it.

True, but the market will be split. For instance, if 5% of the younger/healthier bus users, re-evaluate whether its worth walking the extra distance to save money, and if 10% or more say; they've had enough and its time to speed up plans to acquire a car, to drive to the Station (and stlll save money based on what they see going out of their pocket), then the bus loses 15% of its market - albeit for only part of the route. Thus, the "bandits" will look to reduce the service accordingly, thus forcing more people to evaluate alternatives, and so the vicious circle continues.
 

yorksrob

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True, but the market will be split. For instance, if 5% of the younger/healthier bus users, re-evaluate whether its worth walking the extra distance to save money, and if 10% or more say; they've had enough and its time to speed up plans to acquire a car, to drive to the Station (and stlll save money based on what they see going out of their pocket), then the bus loses 15% of its market - albeit for only part of the route. Thus, the "bandits" will look to reduce the service accordingly, thus forcing more people to evaluate alternatives, and so the vicious circle continues.

So why is it acceptable for people on major rail flows within urban areas to be made into "civilian casualties" by hiking their fares by 31%, just to prop up commercial bus companies ? That way, everyone has to pay higher fares.
 

Dentonian

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So why is it acceptable for people on major rail flows within urban areas to be made into "civilian casualties" by hiking their fares by 31%, just to prop up commercial bus companies ? That way, everyone has to pay higher fares.

Because their fares were artificially low beforehand. Even the Government recognised this, albeit it was specifically a problem into Leeds and Manchester, so if you are suffering on a service into York (for instance) than maybe you are hard done by. And with those sort of destinations in mind, it is also a question of what sort of injury, the casualty suffers. If a rail user loses their service (and we are talking one, maybe two rail stops in these cases, they usually have two "inferior" choices to fall back on; bus or car/bike. If a bus user loses their service, they might be looking at prohibitively expensive taxis - albeit in most cases, its just the usual "death by a thousand cuts", as bus fare rises go hand in hand with reduced services, reduced punctuality, increased journey times, older and/or less comfortable buses etc. No light at tghe end of the Investment tunnel for bus users!
Besides, it might just go some way towards explaining why ATN are taking far less off the the tax-payer than Abellio did, and these hikes haven't hit rail usage, so obviously users are seeing other benefits (free travel on the expanded Metrolink service, for instance)
 

yorksrob

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Because their fares were artificially low beforehand. Even the Government recognised this, albeit it was specifically a problem into Leeds and Manchester, so if you are suffering on a service into York (for instance) than maybe you are hard done by. And with those sort of destinations in mind, it is also a question of what sort of injury, the casualty suffers. If a rail user loses their service (and we are talking one, maybe two rail stops in these cases, they usually have two "inferior" choices to fall back on; bus or car/bike. If a bus user loses their service, they might be looking at prohibitively expensive taxis - albeit in most cases, its just the usual "death by a thousand cuts", as bus fare rises go hand in hand with reduced services, reduced punctuality, increased journey times, older and/or less comfortable buses etc. No light at tghe end of the Investment tunnel for bus users!
Besides, it might just go some way towards explaining why ATN are taking far less off the the tax-payer than Abellio did, and these hikes haven't hit rail usage, so obviously users are seeing other benefits (free travel on the expanded Metrolink service, for instance)

I think you're completely wrong.

The PTE's saw benefit in subsidising rail fares because it benefited their urban areas. They had this power on the railway for a longer period of time, whereas it had been taken away from them in the 1980's through their policy of de-regulation. Central Government has now visited this on rail users as part of their policy of austerity, which has provided no benefit to people in the urban areas.

I actually travel by bus in the Manchester area because one of the towns I visit regularly, isn't on the railway network. I've seen what the price of bus fares in Greater Manchester is like and if you think that this raid on rail users pockets is ever going to find its way back to the pockets of bus users, you're living in cloud cuckoo land. I'm sure in two years time the bus fares will still have gone up.
 

Dentonian

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I think you're completely wrong.

The PTE's saw benefit in subsidising rail fares because it benefited their urban areas. They had this power on the railway for a longer period of time, whereas it had been taken away from them in the 1980's through their policy of de-regulation. Central Government has now visited this on rail users as part of their policy of austerity, which has provided no benefit to people in the urban areas.

I actually travel by bus in the Manchester area because one of the towns I visit regularly, isn't on the railway network. I've seen what the price of bus fares in Greater Manchester is like and if you think that this raid on rail users pockets is ever going to find its way back to the pockets of bus users, you're living in cloud cuckoo land. I'm sure in two years time the bus fares will still have gone up.

I'm confused by your first paragraph; Central Government de-regulated buses in the 1980s - not PTEs!

I never said anything about money finding its way into bus users pockets; my concern is purely revenue abstraction accelerating the spiral of bus service cuts. FTR, there also seems to be a change in pricing policy, as I thought all individual rail fares - certainly off-peak - worked on the basis of Returns being a token 10p more than singles. However, when I arrived at my local station this morning, a sudden 7 minute delay on the incoming train meant I stood in the booking office out of the rain. In the few minutes after the train should have departed, four passengers turned up; one had a pre-paid ticket; one bought a Day Return to Manchester (after complaining she had been told the fare rises weren't happening!) at £4.10; but the other two (arriving seperately) bought singles at just £3.30. For comparison, the equivalent bus fares are £3.50 single and £4.50 DaySaver.
 
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