Rail-ferry connections - present and future

[Wirewiper]

In the UK rail connections to ferry ports may be poor, but there are several examples where coach services (mainly National Express) operate directly to the door - Dover Eastern Docks, Portsmouth Continental Ferry Terminal have direct links from London Victoria, and Cairnryan has direct links to Glasgow, Edinburgh and a number of English cities (through coach & ferry tickets are available between mainland UK locations and Belfast City Centre). Some people are happy to trade off the slower journey time, knowing they will be taken directly to the terminal and not have to catch shuttle buses, take taxis or lug their baggage across an unfamiliar town.

 

[berneyarms]

Ah that'll partly explain the poor connection I had about 4 years ago at Rosslare. The timing of the boat coming in and train departing was very close, then once off the boat, we had to wait about 10 minutes for our checked luggage. The walking route from the ferry terminal to the rail station was not obvious at all, so too long with suitcases, and just missed the train as it started moving away as we got on to the platform. Annoyingly it was the last train of the day. Luckily the Coach company drivers took pity on us, and took us up to Dublin on the Rail and Sail ticket without charging extra. Though had to get a taxi from the centre of Dublin to where we were staying as we were arriving a few hours later than expected.

When I complained to Stena Line and Irish Rail they basically passed the buck and said it wasn't their fault for their being a bad connection. Irish Rail did however say they were going to consider improving the connection for future years.

That train was timed to leave before the ship arrived into Rosslare for years due to IE perceiving that it would be too late for the domestic market along the line if it were deferred to meet the ship, and also due to extended wait times at passing loops en route to Bray.

The revised shipping timetable eliminates these problems.

 

[monxton]

Did you notice if there were many foot passengers on the ferry? I would guess that it is mainly lorries and car passengers that keep routes such as Portsmouth to Cherbourg, Le Havre and St Malo alive these days, and foot passengers probably only account for a very small percentage of users.

At popular times of year there is a quota on passengers travelling with a bicycle on these routes, especially the Spanish ones, presumably because it is more lucrative to sell cabins to people travelling with motor vehicles than with bicycles. I don't know for sure, but I'd guess that the quota may apply also to foot passengers, in which case the numbers would be kept artificially low.

 

[JonasB]

Yes - perhaps because before they built the famous bridge from Copenhagen to Malmo, the Helsingborg-Helsingør ferry was a train ferry carrying the Denmark-Sweden trains. I used that route on a through train which powered very quickly and efficiently on and off the boat for the short crossing. So when the through trains stopped I guess they left the stations where the trains had gone anyway!

In both cities the stations are well in the midst of town without any chance of realigning the rails anyway. On the swedish side there is even a large integrated all-transport and shopping kind of terminal. though there have been some ideas about building anohter underground railway there too.

They sort of did that. In Helsingborg there used to be two stations, Helsingborg C at the location of the current station, and Helsingborg F a bit to the north. The train ferries originally departed close to F. An old orthophoto of it can be seen here: https://kartor.eniro.se/?c=56.043853,12.692779&z=18&l=historic There was a single track connecting the stations, but it crossed a couple of streets and the locals weren't too happy when they had to wait for a freight train passing by in around 5 km/h, something that happened several times daily. Two photos of the procedure can be seen here: http://www.postvagnen.com/forum/index.php?mode=thread&id=1139523 So that track is now underground.

And in FInland where the ferries from Sweden land (Turku, formerly Naantali), but here also rails right untill beside the ships have been torn out.

The gauge difference meant that the the Finland-Sweden trains still needed reloading or regauging, so that probably was a big reason the rail ferries wasn't too popular.

Re. Hoek van Holland: the entire line has been adjusted to fit Rotterdam metro vehicles, which includes ensuring level access between train and platform. As the metro vehicles are built to a different loading gauge than conventional trains on the Dutch network, it won't be possible to run regular trains over the Hoekse Lijn.

Sorry to hear that, I would have loved to see trains return to Hoek van Holland from a bit further away.

Currently they use Swedish rolling stock without air conditioning, which is both unpleasant to sleep in on the boat during hot weather and difficult to drive further than Berlin (because of the loading gauge).

I don't mean to nitpick, but they currently use old Danish coaches that, if I'm not mistaken, are built to continental loading gauge.

 

[jamesontheroad]

I don't mean to nitpick, but they currently use old Danish coaches that, if I'm not mistaken, are built to continental loading gauge.

Indeed! I have variously confused them for German and Swedish as well.

 

[jopsuk]

Sorry to hear that, I would have loved to see trains return to Hoek van Holland from a bit further away.

Even Rotterdam doesn't have extensive International express/intercity trains- it's a stop for Eurostar/Thalys/NS ICD between Brussels and Amsterdam, but to pick up DB services you need to go to Amsterdam

 

[ashkeba]

In the UK rail connections to ferry ports may be poor, but there are several examples where coach services (mainly National Express) operate directly to the door - Dover Eastern Docks, Portsmouth Continental Ferry Terminal have direct links from London Victoria, and Cairnryan has direct links to Glasgow, Edinburgh and a number of English cities (through coach & ferry tickets are available between mainland UK locations and Belfast City Centre). Some people are happy to trade off the slower journey time, knowing they will be taken directly to the terminal and not have to catch shuttle buses, take taxis or lug their baggage across an unfamiliar town.

But especially at Dover, if you can tolerate buses, their cramped seating and their potential for long delays, booking through to a city on the mainland will be cheaper than coach to docks and ferry foot passenger - sometimes cheaper than just the ferry ticket.

It is a big nuisance that train-ferry-train is so awkward at England's busiest port. Long walks on the Calais route, no station anywhere near Dunkirk port even though there are rails near.

 

[jopsuk]

It is a big nuisance that train-ferry-train is so awkward at England's busiest port. Long walks on the Calais route, no station anywhere near Dunkirk port even though there are rails near.

Doesn't really matter that there's no station near Dunkirk port; DFDS haven't carried foot passengers on that route (nor their Calais route) for years. The Eastern Docks at Dover have the pedestrian link span over the vehicle one; P&Os fleet using Dover are built with a pedestrian link out over the rear . At Calais it's a moveable boarder on the starboard side (bows first on the french side); as far as I can see Dover, Delft and Dunkerque Seaways don't even have a door to facilitate this (Calais Seaways does, being an older boat- indeed Calais Seaways under previous operators carried foot passengers using the linkspan to the rear at Dover)

 

[Cloud Strife]

Sassnitz - maybe, but it won't be so long before the Fehmarn Sound project is complete, and the ferry route will become even less competitive for passenger rail. Freight might be another matter.

The problem with Sassnitz is that it doesn't really offer any advantage over alternative routes. Traffic coming from Poland and the Czech Republic can use Świnoujście-Ystad/Trelleborg without any time penalty, while traffic coming from Berlin and Eastern Germany can use Rostock-Gedser, which is cheaper. Sassnitz is really a relic, and their fares are absurdly cheap for what it entails. I've just checked now, and it's possible to get a car+passengers for as little as 60 Euro return in the middle of summer. In comparison, you're looking at 240 Euro for any of the Polish-Swedish routes at a minimum.

 

[JonasB]

Indeed! I have variously confused them for German and Swedish as well.

The smooth sides are a pretty good sign that they are imported, most Swedish coaches have corrugated sides.

 

[30907]

The problem with Sassnitz is that it doesn't really offer any advantage over alternative routes. Traffic coming from Poland and the Czech Republic can use Świnoujście-Ystad/Trelleborg without any time penalty, while traffic coming from Berlin and Eastern Germany can use Rostock-Gedser, which is cheaper. Sassnitz is really a relic, and their fares are absurdly cheap for what it entails. I've just checked now, and it's possible to get a car+passengers for as little as 60 Euro return in the middle of summer. In comparison, you're looking at 240 Euro for any of the Polish-Swedish routes at a minimum.

Quite, and that explains why the service has been drastically reduced in recent years. But we are talking rail connections, which these days rules out Gedser (not sure about Swinoujscie).

 

[AlbertBeale]

Just picking up this general thread about rail-boat connections.

I used the Harwich-HvH link (overnight) recently, for the first time in many years. It remains - largely - an example of how such connections can be good. The station/port link on the British side was integrated and under cover, a short distance and quite quick (and less grotty than I remember it used to be...) And on the overnight crossing, where you have a cabin reserved anyway and aren't worried about finding a decent spot for the crossing, you can catch a train arriving not long before check-in closes (ie later than the scheduled "boat train"), so as to avoid much time wasted, faffing around queuing for a queue. [NB - I guess someone here knows whether there are official connection times for such things, like for connections between trains in Britain, so that if a nominally appropriate train is delayed and you miss the boat, you don't lose out on your onward ticket just because you're on a train later than the through boat train they show on the boat timetable?]

On the Dutch side, I was surprised about the walkway from the gangplank to the passport control and the railway station: nice and bright, and no steps, and a travelator for a bit of it, but ...it must have been about a mile long! Integrated, yes, but quick and easy, no. Does it depend on which bit of the quay the boat docks at? Do some boats have their exit nearer the landward end? Is it always that long a hike these days? (However, on balance I'd much rather this than going "outside" to get a shuttle bus a few minutes across the port, as in some places; the feeling of an integrated connection is, I think, important in terms of the image of rail-boat links being as convenient as rail-rail connections.)

And of course the new metro is fine (though as a metro-style service, I'd have hoped for better than a half-hour frequency on a Saturday), but having proper trains back there would be better. Maybe, as surface transport comes back into climate-needed fashion, that will change again one day soon. But overall a fairly smooth and fairly cost-effective journey from London to the other side of the Netherlands. I'd certainly consider that route instead of Eurostar again sometime, depending on where I'm trying to end up on the other side, apart from one problem - see below.

As for the boat itself - perfectly comfortable and mostly efficient (though information telling foot passengers where and when to exit the boat was a bit iffy), And the cabin was excellent. Given the through ticket price from London to anywhere in the Netherlands, then the comfortable night's sleep for very little compared to a hotel price was good value. Given the distance covered, and the quality of the accommodation, it was better value than many rail sleeper services.

One really major grouse though. Having got up bright and early on the way to HvH (even despite the clock change), so as to enjoy a proper breakfast before we docked - to set me up for the several train rides ahead - I was horrified by the loud "background" [in fact, foreground] music being played in the only place you could get a proper breakfast (as opposed to a cup of coffee and a croissant). It was so dreadful to be aurally assaulted in that way first thing in the morning that I couldn't cope and ended up with no breakfast. For that reason alone, I'm reluctant to use the overnight crossing again. It was the one thing that stopped it from being a pleasant and civilised experience.

 

[ashkeba]

One really major grouse though. Having got up bright and early on the way to HvH (even despite the clock change), so as to enjoy a proper breakfast before we docked - to set me up for the several train rides ahead - I was horrified by the loud "background" [in fact, foreground] music being played in the only place you could get a proper breakfast (as opposed to a cup of coffee and a croissant). It was so dreadful to be aurally assaulted in that way first thing in the morning that I couldn't cope and ended up with no breakfast. For that reason alone, I'm reluctant to use the overnight crossing again. It was the one thing that stopped it from being a pleasant and civilised experience.

Please let Stena know and see how they react. I don't remember that last time, so maybe there was a deaf crew member in charge of the volume that morning, but my hearing is poor anyway.

Is there any alternative to the long walk? I will have to factor more hobbling time in if it is really a mile!

 

[AlbertBeale]

Please let Stena know and see how they react. I don't remember that last time, so maybe there was a deaf crew member in charge of the volume that morning, but my hearing is poor anyway.

Is there any alternative to the long walk? I will have to factor more hobbling time in if it is really a mile!

Glad you didn't have the oppressive music; yes, I will give them some feedback, since it really spoiled what was otherwise a good experience.

I guess the mile was hyperbole - but it must have been the longest "inside connection" walk I can remember in such a context; I'm sure I've had worse at an airport somewhere, years ago, but this did feel really over-long. It might have been partly because of the comparison with the short connection at the Harwich end, and what that led me to expect, and it might have been affected by my non-breakfasted grumpiness!

 

[30907]

It's quite a walk, 5-600m according to Googlemaps, and it's the only berth Stena use AFAIK. The moving pavement must be new!
By comparison, station platform to terminal 1 checkin at Manchester is about 400m.

 

[TubeMapCentral]

The travelators cover the majority of its length, and there is an assistance vehicle available. Passengers will only be in a hurry going downhill, to get through passport control quickly and catch the metro. Hopefully they will fix the frequencies soon, currently worse than the NS Sprinter it has replaced

 

[ashkeba]

By comparison, station platform to terminal 1 checkin at Manchester is about 400m.

Where do ferries go from Manchester?

 

[AndrewE]

Where do ferries go from Manchester?

Liverpool, but only once a week - in mid-summer - https://www.merseyferries.co.uk/Groups/Pages/Manchester-Ship-Canal-2020.aspx

 

[AlexNL]

Maybe, as surface transport comes back into climate-needed fashion, that will change again one day soon.

I wouldn't count on the Hoekse Lijn ever rejoining the mainline railway network again. The infrastructure has been transferred to the Rotterdam-The Hague Metropolitan Area, who are now responsible for its maintenance (outsourced to RET).

Hopefully they will fix the frequencies soon, currently worse than the NS Sprinter it has replaced

If I recall correctly under NS there were usually 2 trains an hour, with some peak hour additions.

Under RET, the service pattern varies a little but seems to be:
- Mo-Fr, 3tph 06:30 - 19:00
- Sa, 3tph 11:00 - 18:30

On Sundays and outside the timeslots indicated above, it's 2tph. From Steendijkpolder (a new station near Maassluis) the frequency doubles - so 6tph during peak hours, 4tph outside of it. During summer season I think the frequency will be increased throughout the day (to cater to the amount of beach goers).

Once the extension to Hoek van Holland Strand opens, the service pattern might be changed again. That's not

Overall I would say the service pattern is an increase in frequency compared to when the line was still operated by NS. But if you're arriving early on a Saturday morning, it might not feel like that.

 

[AlbertBeale]

The travelators cover the majority of its length, and there is an assistance vehicle available. Passengers will only be in a hurry going downhill, to get through passport control quickly and catch the metro. Hopefully they will fix the frequencies soon, currently worse than the NS Sprinter it has replaced

The travelator didn't feel like it covered the majority of the length - I'd been walking for ages before it was even in sight...

I take the point that the direction when you are most likely trying to rush is the one which is broadly downhill!

 

[AlbertBeale]

I wouldn't count on the Hoekse Lijn ever rejoining the mainline railway network again. The infrastructure has been transferred to the Rotterdam-The Hague Metropolitan Area, who are now responsible for its maintenance (outsourced to RET).

What I understand - from something on this forum at some stage - is that the first half of the rebuilt line out from Rotterdam is capable of carrying "proper" trains, and does so from time to time since it's still used for freight access to somewhere en route; and I similarly understand that the remainder of the route out to HvH, though only set up for the metros currently, was built in a way that didn't preclude it being upgraded for other trains if ever needed in the future. (Which all sounds sensible.)

 

[AlexNL]

The Hoekse Lijn is indeed capable of receiving mainline freight trains, but a couple of restrictions are in place.

As things stand, trains can only run on one of two tracks as the other is not fitted for it. They have to be capable of running independently, as no mainline trains exist which can run off of 750 V DC OLE. Trains can run only at 40 km/h as they're not equipped with the train protection and control system used by RET, they need to have an absolute block from the Schiedam handover point to their destination at Vlaardingen.

While it's technically true that the capability to receive mainline train traffic further down the line has not been completely ruled out* there are currently no plans to do so and significant changes would be needed to the infrastructure to make this happen.

As the MRDH (municipal authority) now own the tracks, eventually it will be up to them to decide whether or not to adapt the infrastructure. If there's a chance of it impacting the metro timetable, I'm going to guess they'll be very reluctant.

* Originally, plans were for occasional freight trains to run to Maassluis.

 

[TubeMapCentral]

I wouldn't count on the Hoekse Lijn ever rejoining the mainline railway network again. The infrastructure has been transferred to the Rotterdam-The Hague Metropolitan Area, who are now responsible for its maintenance (outsourced to RET).


If I recall correctly under NS there were usually 2 trains an hour, with some peak hour additions.

Under RET, the service pattern varies a little but seems to be:
- Mo-Fr, 3tph 06:30 - 19:00
- Sa, 3tph 11:00 - 18:30

On Sundays and outside the timeslots indicated above, it's 2tph. From Steendijkpolder (a new station near Maassluis) the frequency doubles - so 6tph during peak hours, 4tph outside of it. During summer season I think the frequency will be increased throughout the day (to cater to the amount of beach goers).

Once the extension to Hoek van Holland Strand opens, the service pattern might be changed again. That's not

Overall I would say the service pattern is an increase in frequency compared to when the line was still operated by NS. But if you're arriving early on a Saturday morning, it might not feel like that.

MF mornings when the boat train arrived, the Sprinter used to run every 15 minutes. If the aspiration was only ever every 20 minutes, what a stupid waste of money that conversion was. I hope the locals are pointing fingers at local government officials.

 

[EC73LDN]

Related to this, if I don't hold a through rail-sea-rail ticket, do the (presumably now) RET ticket machines at Hoek station sell a through ticket using the metro and NS to Delft?

 

[30907]

Where do ferries go from Manchester?

Airport, sorry if it wasn't clear.

 

[ricohallo]

Related to this, if I don't hold a through rail-sea-rail ticket, do the (presumably now) RET ticket machines at Hoek station sell a through ticket using the metro and NS to Delft?

Unfortunately they don't. You're going to have to buy the tickets separately (RET at Hoek and NS at Schiedam) or buy a print-at-home e-ticket for the train journey at https://www.ns.nl/producten/en/losse-kaartjes/p/e-ticket, this way you'll save €1 too!

P.S. There's also an RET bus from Rotterdam Centraal to Delft (line 40) which you can use with the same RET ticket, as long as you check in in the bus within 2 hours after your first check in at Hoek.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Doesn't really matter that there's no station near Dunkirk port; DFDS haven't carried foot passengers on that route (nor their Calais route) for years. The Eastern Docks at Dover have the pedestrian link span over the vehicle one; P&Os fleet using Dover are built with a pedestrian link out over the rear . At Calais it's a moveable boarder on the starboard side (bows first on the french side); as far as I can see Dover, Delft and Dunkerque Seaways don't even have a door to facilitate this (Calais Seaways does, being an older boat- indeed Calais Seaways under previous operators carried foot passengers using the linkspan to the rear at Dover)

DFDS might not take foot passengers Dover-Dunkirk, but you don't need motorised transport to do it. They do seem to accept passengers with a bicycle! So - as I've done from time to time on the Dover-Calais route - if you're with a bike, you have a way of managing the station-boat distance efficiently, to make up for the current lack of proper interconnectedness. (Not to mention getting you on a boat you couldn't otherwise use at all, as in this instance.)

I've also had interesting experiences, Dover-Calais, of not "fitting the system" properly as a cyclist, since I'm moving on the road rather than the pedestrian access, but with only a foot passenger ticket. This has resulted in my getting from outside Dover port to outside Calais port with no-one checking my ticket, boarding card, passport - anything at all - on either side. And (very nearly) vice versa too, except that I took a "wrong turn" cycling from the boat on the Dover side and ended up going through a passport check. Though I could probably have managed not to if I'd been trying. These experiences were a few years ago now, and maybe it's all a bit tighter these days - but it does seem to be a general rule in many situations that you can get away with a lot on a bike that you can't on foot on in a vehicle...

 

[jopsuk]

DFDS might not take foot passengers Dover-Dunkirk, but you don't need motorised transport to do it. They do seem to accept passengers with a bicycle! So - as I've done from time to time on the Dover-Calais route - if you're with a bike, you have a way of managing the station-boat distance efficiently, to make up for the current lack of proper interconnectedness. (Not to mention getting you on a boat you couldn't otherwise use at all, as in this instance.)

I've also had interesting experiences, Dover-Calais, of not "fitting the system" properly as a cyclist, since I'm moving on the road rather than the pedestrian access, but with only a foot passenger ticket. This has resulted in my getting from outside Dover port to outside Calais port with no-one checking my ticket, boarding card, passport - anything at all - on either side. And (very nearly) vice versa too, except that I took a "wrong turn" cycling from the boat on the Dover side and ended up going through a passport check. Though I could probably have managed not to if I'd been trying. These experiences were a few years ago now, and maybe it's all a bit tighter these days - but it does seem to be a general rule in many situations that you can get away with a lot on a bike that you can't on foot on in a vehicle...

I used the Dover-Dunkirk ferry a couple of years ago by bike. Definitely got checked at both passport check points, and had my ticket checked in order to get a boarding pass (one of the vehicle ones that normally hangs from the rear view mirror).

And I'm never doing it again, getting from Dunkirk port to a quiet road was one of the most terrifying bits of cycling I've done, turfed off the ferry first and then heading down a not-really-that-wide single carriageeway road being close passed by a stream of eastern european truck drivers sprinting for the autoroute.

 

[ashkeba]

And I'm never doing it again, getting from Dunkirk port to a quiet road was one of the most terrifying bits of cycling I've done, turfed off the ferry first and then heading down a not-really-that-wide single carriageeway road being close passed by a stream of eastern european truck drivers sprinting for the autoroute.

You can wait 20 minutes or so outside the port gate to let the sprinters overtake before the end of the cycle lane and then it is fairly quiet. Or I understand there is a way to turn left along the coast then head inland but I have not tried it. At the speed that dk is building cycleways (now almost all the way from Loon-Plage to Bray-Dunes), they should connect that port cycle lane to the one in Loon-Plage soon!

 

[Steddenm]

From what I can remember about the routes I have travelled on:

Fishguard Harbour - Rosslare Europort
Trains pull into the platform (operated by Stena Line and not Network Rail) alongside the berth for the ferry. You walk through a small customs area and ticket check before walking up a precariously steep ramp onto the ship (now by bus apparently). At Rosslare Europort depending on what berth you arrive in you either walk across a bridge from the ferry to the terminal or take a short bus ride back via a Garda checkpoint. The walk to the station is well signposted but is not covered. Trains didn't connect with the boats.

Holyhead - Dublin Port
Train arrives into platform. Walk forward straight to ticket check, bag drop and customs check. Take a bus to the ferry. At Dublin you walk off the ferry, down a ramp, into the port. A Dublin Bus ferries passengers from the Port to Connolly Station or Busaras for the Luas.

Cairnryan - Belfast
The train takes you to Ayr where Stena Line run a bus to Cairnryan Port. You alight outside the terminal and go through a ticket check. Walk to the cafe waiting area before an escalator takes you up to the link span. Walk onto the boat. At Belfast Port a shuttle bus operated by Translink Metro (route 96 I think) then operates into Belfast city centre.

The best way from getting from Glasgow to Belfast though is via Hannons Coaches. They operate two services a day from Buchannan St Bus Station to Belfast Donegal Square for £29 each way.