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Rail-ferry connections - present and future

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Ianno87

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The good old "nobody was using it" excuse. Most often proceeded by making the service as user unfriendly as possible.

It had, what, three journey opportunities each way well-spread across the day. Not sure what more could be realistically be offered?
 
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duesselmartin

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Despite the protestations of the likes of Mr Seat 61, Stena have made an entirely rational commercial decision. The present arrangements has been the case for 8 years now, and clearly is a loss-making concern for them.

Even travelling from Glasgow to Belfast via this route at least takes half a day of commitment. Just too big a time commitment for many travellers, especially when a decent air fare can be obtained not very far in advance.

I however do enjoy taking the time to take surface routes, where time permits. But I'm aware I'm the minority here.

Although flying also takes more time than many believe. Getting to and from the airport, checking in luggage, security ect.
The most competetive would be a coach service Belfast to Glasgow.
 

Flying Snail

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Despite the protestations of the likes of Mr Seat 61, Stena have made an entirely rational commercial decision. The present arrangements has been the case for 8 years now, and clearly is a loss-making concern for them.

Even travelling from Glasgow to Belfast via this route at least takes half a day of commitment. Just too big a time commitment for many travellers, especially when a decent air fare can be obtained not very far in advance.

I however do enjoy taking the time to take surface routes, where time permits. But I'm aware I'm the minority here.

The fact that a second coach operator has started and maintained a service on that corridor would suggest there is demand for the route despite it's slow journey time.

It is true that Stena have no incentive to keep the service going if it is loss making, maybe it should be on Scotrail and the local authorities to provide an alternative to the Stena funded coach. If profitability was the only consideration for the retention of services we wouldn't have much of a rail network left would we?

A reasonable, quick and relatively cheap solution would be to incentivise Stagecoach to re-time their service to provide a connection to the ferries and take sail rail tickets to Girvan or Ayr.
 

Flying Snail

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It had, what, three journey opportunities each way well-spread across the day. Not sure what more could be realistically be offered?

As I posted earlier in the thread the 2 coach services are considerably quicker, mostly due to the long connection time at the port where sail-rail passengers are deposited 1h40 before sailing time.
 

bkhtele

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Travelling by train is better, I agree there is low demand for the present experience! Pity the rail sea tickets are not valid on stena & p+o to improve connections plus the later ferries that exclude foot passengers. Larne harbour is better connected with direct train to Belfast. The rail tickets should now be a accepted to Stranaer again so passengers can share taxis to the ferry.
 

paul1609

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Although flying also takes more time than many believe. Getting to and from the airport, checking in luggage, security ect.
Thats not really true for this particular hop. Glasgow City centre to Glasgow Airport Bus is scheduled for 15 mins. Glasgow is a small regional airport where security normally takes 10 mins. Id only allow 2 hours from City Centre to take off when I have tools which need special paperwork and that normally allows time for a coffee or pint before take off. Flight is 50 mins to Belfast City Airport which is only 3 miles about 5 mins from the City Centre.
 

sheff1

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Although flying also takes more time than many believe. Getting to and from the airport, checking in luggage, security ect.
The most competetive would be a coach service Belfast to Glasgow.

The coach takes 5 hrs 30 mins.

There is no need to arrive at Harbour/City/George Best until 1 hour before departure at the earliest, even with luggage. Bus from Europa takes 15 mins. Flight time less than an hour. Rounding up - say total journey time 2 hrs 30 min max. Not sure how long it currently takes to exit Glasgow aiport after the plane doors open but at Manchester (a much bigger airport) I can be at the station in 15 mins or less with hand luggage.

So, even if your final destination is right next to Buchanan Bus station the plane option is around 2 hours quicker at worst.

EDIT - I see the previous post has come to a similar conclusion in the opposite direction.
 
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bkhtele

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However some people like train & ferry. Also at busy times the ferry can be cheaper. It would be good to have an attractive alternative to flying train + ferry.
 

paul1609

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However some people like train & ferry. Also at busy times the ferry can be cheaper. It would be good to have an attractive alternative to flying train + ferry.
Id be included in that and Ive done many of the rail-sea links in the UK. Sadly the market for the majority of these is tiny. There are short routes where there is still a good market eg Clyde Estuary and IOW but the majority of the rest are dead ducks and must be economic basket cases, its not clear why tax payers should fork out to retain them.
 

37201xoIM

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All of these people reminding us how quick and cheap aviation is are rather missing the point of this thread, as per the initial post. The premise is that the most avoidable flights are going to need to be, well, avoided, and there are many cases where ferries will play a role in this, alongside rail travel.

Tax and subsidy are likely to play a role in changing the outcomes which "rational" decisions made by private-sector operators on a purely commercial basis, such as those described above, have brought about - but which have led to envinromentally disastrous consequences.

That's why "the taxpayer should fork out" - including, for example, via increased taxation on air tickets. Otherwise all of us have to "fork out" for the costs of climate-change...

In that context, an increase in rail+sea travel to closer to historic levels (if not higher) seems entirely plausible, to say the least, and is something we should be actively planning for.
 
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AlbertBeale

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All of these people reminding us how quick and cheap aviation is are rather missing the point of this thread, as per the initial post. The premise is that the most avoidable flights are going to need to be, well, avoided, and there are many cases where ferries will play a role in this, alongside rail travel.

Tax and subsidy are likely to play a role in changing the outcomes which "rational" decisions made by private-sector operators on a purely commercial basis, such as those described above, have brought about - but which have led to envinromentally disastrous consequences.

That's why "the taxpayer should fork out" - including, for example, via increased taxation on air tickets. Otherwise all of us have to "fork out" for the costs of climate-change...

In that context, an increase in rail+sea travel to closer to historic levels (if not higher) seems entirely plausible, to say the least, and is something we should be actively planning for.

Yes - this is much the point I just made in another thread (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ramsgate-to-ostend-ferry-reinstated-from-march-2018.155678/) in response to pessimism/realism as to the likelihood of the Ramsgate-Ostend route ever functioning again...

Yes - I see all that!. Though if plane travel within Europe virtually disappears in the next few years (as it needs to if our planet is to survive), then more ferry capacity with good rail-ferry connections is going to be needed between Britain and the rest of Europe. Given that the port and railway station in Ostend are already there and well-integrated, then if (I realise it's a major "if") there were a good rail-ferry link on the British side, feeding into a fast ferry to Ostend, then that route could be a useful addition to the cross-channel and under-channel passenger capacity. The foot passenger market might be very small at present, but if people want to carry on travelling between Britain and other parts of Europe, it might well increase again in the coming years.
 

paul1609

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All of these people reminding us how quick and cheap aviation is are rather missing the point of this thread, as per the initial post. The premise is that the most avoidable flights are going to need to be, well, avoided, and there are many cases where ferries will play a role in this, alongside rail travel.

Tax and subsidy are likely to play a role in changing the outcomes which "rational" decisions made by private-sector operators on a purely commercial basis, such as those described above, have brought about - but which have led to envinromentally disastrous consequences.

That's why "the taxpayer should fork out" - including, for example, via increased taxation on air tickets. Otherwise all of us have to "fork out" for the costs of climate-change...

In that context, an increase in rail+sea travel to closer to historic levels (if not higher) seems entirely plausible, to say the least, and is something we should be actively planning for.
Unfortunately what has to be realised is the effect that the air links have on health, education and employment. In effect the air links to the Scottish Islands and Belfast are ambulances and school buses without them many of these areas will just become depopulated. This is already a problem in some of the Shetland Islands and some parts of the mainland Highlands.
A train plus ferry sounds like a good eco plan but the problem is that a good proportion of the current air business is people commuting for good reasons, commutes that have been established for 3 generations now. Unfortunately whilst the train and ferry is a substitute for train spotters and green party voters who don't have full time employment the considerably extended journey times won't be acceptable to essential users. I don't see a revival of any of the services anytime soon, if ever.
 

duesselmartin

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The idea is not to scrap air services but avoid when you can. I can understand air emergency services and commute in remote places. Its the leasure market where sea and/or rail must be the alternative.
Travelling from Glasgow to Belfast the ferry is a good alternative. As is Birmingham to Dublin.
I personally use Eurostar regulary travelling from Duisburg Germany despite frequent air connections.
 

paul1609

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The idea is not to scrap air services but avoid when you can. I can understand air emergency services and commute in remote places. Its the leasure market where sea and/or rail must be the alternative.
Travelling from Glasgow to Belfast the ferry is a good alternative. As is Birmingham to Dublin.
I personally use Eurostar regulary travelling from Duisburg Germany despite frequent air connections.
Eurostar isn't a ferry service and it has all but killed off the traditional foot passenger business across the Channel. The problem with the likes of Belfast is that a 5 hour train/ferry trip is not an acceptable alternative for most and the leisure market isn't big enough to support bespoke links that's why the ferry moved away from Stranraer in the first place and why subsequently all bar one of the rail coaches has been withdrawn.
 

bkhtele

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Many services are not economic it would be good to have a train/ferry alternative. Suspect it would be more cost effective than a bridge or tunnel! Many train services in the UK are not cost effective as well. Pity to exclude N.I. from train/ferry service & say travel by bus or plane....
 

AndrewE

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Many services are not economic it would be good to have a train/ferry alternative. Suspect it would be more cost effective than a bridge or tunnel! Many train services in the UK are not cost effective as well. Pity to exclude N.I. from train/ferry service & say travel by bus or plane....
Most roads are not economic or "cost effective" either.
The point is that if we are to reduce our carbon footprint then we have to move to a less extravagant way of living. That will involve (besides less travel altogether) much less air transport and much more use of surface public transport, all of which needs to be provided so that they can be used.
Government is the only organisation with the resources and powers to push this forward, but it needs the will to do it. It also needs the Govt to acknowledge that if you rely on the private sector to do it for you then you will be robbed blind and fail to achieve the goal into the bargain.
 

Meerkat

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Isn’t shipping a shocking polluter? Are you sure train and ferry is greener than a busy plane?
 

ashkeba

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Isn’t shipping a shocking polluter? Are you sure train and ferry is greener than a busy plane?
Yes, it is. And yes, quite sure. Passenger ferries range from 10 to 45g CO2 per km per foot passenger depending who you read. DEFRA report UK rail as 60 - but planes as 175, almost treble! Are you shocked how much more polluting planes are?

Also, electric passenger ferries are entering service while electric planes are still research projects.
 

Struner

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I have family & friends in the Borders. & in Orkney. I go there roughly once a year. So three times a year. When I go to the Borders I’ll take my wee van on the DFDS overnight ferry IJmuiden-South Shields. I’m usually ordered ;) to take some stuff along - both ways, a good excuse for using the van :p. It takes me longer to drive to IJmuiden than from Newcastle to Gala. Getting there by train would involve me being picked up in Berwick or Tweedbank. No chance (but I have been on the Borders line, up & down to Edinburgh :D).
As for Orkney, I fly - simples, to quote the daughter of the manse.
The ferry from/to Aberdeen is no use, it doesn’t run every day. & it arrives & leaves just before midnight (hopefully).
There isn’t a decent connection to the Stromness-Scrabster ferry - a lifeline service? Transport Scotland should do something about that <(.
& then there is Pentland Ferries of course, not subsidised - but profitable all the same. So TS can’t be bothered to stipulate a connecting bus service Inverness-Gills bay.
If (lol) there were a sleeper to Thurso (sometimes misnamed Wick sleeper ;)) with a proper ferry connection I for one would be tempted to use it, as time is not really a constraint. But it would allow people - including me - to get to one of the other islands.
In fact I have done it once, quite a few years ago now, when there happened to be a connecting bus service from Inverness (one change - but straightforward).
But airport lounges - yuk. Seen too many of those, both big & small.;)
 

route101

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Do you reckon Roysth will ever get a ferry service to Europe again?
 

paul1609

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Yes, it is. And yes, quite sure. Passenger ferries range from 10 to 45g CO2 per km per foot passenger depending who you read. DEFRA report UK rail as 60 - but planes as 175, almost treble! Are you shocked how much more polluting planes are?

Also, electric passenger ferries are entering service while electric planes are still research projects.
Where in the UK are there electric ferries? Diesel Generation/ Electric propulsion maybe
 

AndrewE

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To and from Raasay, they are trying to build 2 more
MV Hallaig marks a major step forward in ferry design, using a hybrid system that combines diesel electric power with lithium ion batteries. The banks of batteries are charged overnight and designed to provide a minimum of 20% of the total power consumed by the ship. She cost significantly more to build than a conventional ferry, but on the other hand is significantly cheaper to run, quieter, and creates a much lower level of emissions than a conventional ferry.
(https://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/raasay/ferry/index.html)
 

Struner

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One can always hope of course. Don’t know about rail connections though, now or in the past. P&O run a ferry Zeebrugge-Hull, but they are very good at concealing connections for foot passengers on their website.
Zeebrugge-Rosyth wouldn’t be of much use to me, as it’s more or less the same distance by car compared to IJmuiden-South Shields.
But occasionally they are speculating about a ferry Rosyth-Eemshaven which would save me ca 150 km, traveling by car. & the port is only a short distance from a railhead.
I don’t think it will come to anything tho, perhaps a trailer ferry? Like Zeebrugge-Rosyth was? With accomodation for twelve passengers? But those berths would be taken up by people accompanying their trailers.
 

AndrewE

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I bet that if Scotland secedes from the UK then re-joins the EU there will be direct ferries again...
 

paul1609

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To and from Raasay, they are trying to build 2 more
(https://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/raasay/ferry/index.html)
By coincidence I took HMS Shoreham in to Garvel Dry dock on the Clyde in 2018 and shared the dock with MV Hallaig which is one of three short route hybrid ferries built for Cal mac. They are best described as a plug in hybrid the car equivalent of a Toyota Prius.
According to the crew the system probably doesn't achieve its aims and much of the fuel savings could have been achieved with the more modern engines driving the Voiths through a conventional mechanical arrangement. They are a long way away from a truly electric ferry.
Of course the larger ferries with the same system are an unmitigated disaster and have brought the shipyard in to public ownership and cost the Scottish taxpayers millions.
 

Elwyn

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I bet that if Scotland secedes from the UK then re-joins the EU there will be direct ferries again...

The previous services from Rosyth weren’t economic. A combination of insufficient traffic, particularly in the off season, and because the long journey time meant the vessel couldn’t make as many sailings as competing ships from ports like Hull. Why do you think an independent Scotland would change that?
 

30907

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Rosyth Zeebrugge was IIRC 18hr, so a 2-day return trip.
None of the Hull passenger sailings does better than that.
But R-Z was pretty short lived.
 

Meerkat

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The previous services from Rosyth weren’t economic. A combination of insufficient traffic, particularly in the off season, and because the long journey time meant the vessel couldn’t make as many sailings as competing ships from ports like Hull. Why do you think an independent Scotland would change that?

Have you not seen the silly ideas the Welsh are coming up with to avoid travelling through England?
More practically Rosyth would become relevant if Scotland was in the EU and England wasn’t.
 

ashkeba

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Where in the UK are there electric ferries? Diesel Generation/ Electric propulsion maybe
None in UK yet AFAIK. I think the first may be Denmark or Finland. But they are in service. Where are the electric passenger planes that have had so much development funding?
 
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