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Rail Finance Statistical Release 2018-19

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tbtc

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Net government support in 2018-19 was £7.1 billion. This was up 8.9% compared with 2017-18, when adjusted for inflation1. Excluding HS2, government support increased by 2.1% in 2018-19.

Interesting - thanks for posting.

In theory, that may stop some of the "HS2 is taking all of the resources" arguments we see on here, but I doubt it.

It's a tricky one though. People complain when Government support goes up ("privatisation has clearly failed, since the railway needs a bigger subsidy than under BR - though it wouldn't need such a big subsidy if fat cat billionaires and foreign governments weren't sucking all of the profits away")...

...but people complain when Government support goes down ("why are they squeezing hard pressed passengers, faced with gouging price increases in line with RPI - the Government clearly don't care about encouraging people to go green if they aren't throwing more and more money on the railway")...

... I guess the question is whether the £7.1 billion quid is good value for money - the worrying thing is that it'd be an easy pot to raid for whoever forms the next Government (given the long time lag between investment and people noticing that they are benefitting from that investment).
 

Railwaysceptic

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... I guess the question is whether the £7.1 billion quid is good value for money . . .
Another question is if the point made a few years ago by Roger Ford is still valid: that work which used to be done at sensible cost by British Rail now costs three times as much or more.
 

TheWalrus

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The railways may be subsidised £7.1bn but how much do they pay back into the treasury? I know a few years back they paid more back overall than they were subsidised.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The railways may be subsidised £7.1bn but how much do they pay back into the treasury? I know a few years back they paid more back overall than they were subsidised.

I don't think that's ever been the case.
The usual presentation of the figures is that passenger operations overall cover their costs and any subsidy, but go nowhere near paying for forward investment by Network Rail.
That is a shortfall of the order of £2-3 billion a year.
 

JamesT

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The railways may be subsidised £7.1bn but how much do they pay back into the treasury? I know a few years back they paid more back overall than they were subsidised.

These are Net figures, so it's already the difference between what is paid and returned.
 

Jimbob52

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These are Net figures, so it's already the difference between what is paid and returned.
I am sorry, but I still don't understand your comment. You said the railways "paid back more than they were subsidised" implying they were a contributor to the Exchequer rather than a cost to the tax payer. Is this still your view?
 

tomuk

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to quote from the release
For the first time since 2009-10, train operating companies (TOCs) received a net subsidy from government. The £417 million received by TOCs in 2018-19 compares with a real terms net payment to government of £227 million in 2017-18.
 

Tetchytyke

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The TOCs do largely pay their way if you don't factor in Network Rail costs.

If you do factor in Network Rail costs (and you should, as trains need tracks) then the railway has never paid a net premium.
 

Tetchytyke

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It's a tricky one though. People complain when Government support goes up

If we're going to have private companies making a lot of money from the railways, they should be the ones investing their money. But they are not, the government is the one throwing the readies about, both through a net subsidy and also through mandating high regulated fares increases.

All of which rather begs the question: what do the private companies actually bring to the table?
 

Dr Hoo

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If we're going to have private companies making a lot of money from the railways, they should be the ones investing their money. But they are not, the government is the one throwing the readies about, both through a net subsidy and also through mandating high regulated fares increases.

All of which rather begs the question: what do the private companies actually bring to the table?
I’m confused. The Statistical Release, published today, isn’t the same as the UK Rail Industry Financial Information publication (mentioned in the Release). The link provided appears to show that the latest edition is still for 2017-18, rather than 2018-19. How do you know that private companies are (currently) “making a lot of money from the Railways”?
 

Bald Rick

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Another question is if the point made a few years ago by Roger Ford is still valid: that work which used to be done at sensible cost by British Rail now costs three times as much or more.

It doesn’t cost three times as much. It does cost more, in real terms, for various reasons, not least vastly improved safety standards. But accounting is done very, very differently.
 

Tetchytyke

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How do you know that private companies are (currently) “making a lot of money from the Railways”?

I have no idea what you're asking here? Did I fall asleep and miss the announcement thar Go-Ahead and First became charities?

Also, if you're going to quote me, actually quote me instead of adding words to create a straw man.
 

bspahh

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I’m confused. The Statistical Release, published today, isn’t the same as the UK Rail Industry Financial Information publication (mentioned in the Release). The link provided appears to show that the latest edition is still for 2017-18, rather than 2018-19. How do you know that private companies are (currently) “making a lot of money from the Railways”?

I've updated the URL in the original post to https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1548/rail-finance-statistical-release-2018-19.pdf as the old one stopped working. That says its for 2018-19.
 

bspahh

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If I can find it in an old magazine I have somewhere then yes.

This table was also published today in an Excel sheet:
https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1541/government-support-to-the-rail-industry-table-16.xlsx
Code:
Government support to the rail industry - Table 1.6
                                              
Subsidy (positive values) or premium payment (negative values) made from/to Department for Transport, Transport Scotland and Welsh Government (£ million)
                                              
Great Britain Annual data (financial year): 1985-86 to 2018-19                                            
                                              
Financial yr Central Gov PTE Direct rail   HS2   Crossrail   Misc Total gov Total gov support Network Rail Freight
             grants   grants support                              support   at 2018-19 prices Loans        grants
1985-86          849      78          0      0           0     61       988             2,409       0            7
1986-87          755      70          0      0           0     22       847             1,983       0            6
1987-88          796      68          0      0           0   -251       613             1,359       0            2
1988-89          551      70          0      0           0   -175       446               929       0            2
1989-90          479      84          0      0           0    232       795             1,537       0            1
1990-91          637     115          0      0           0    440     1,192             2,130       0            4
1991-92          902     120          0      0           0    562     1,584             2,676       0            1
1992-93        1,194     107          0      0           0    870     2,171             3,578       0            2
1993-94          926     166          0      0           0    535     1,627             2,618       0            4
1994-95        1,815     346          0      0           0   -464     1,697             2,698       0            3
1995-96        1,712     362          0      0           0 -1,643       431               665       0            4
1996-97        1,809     291          0      0           0 -1,044     1,056             1,573       0           15
1997-98        1,429     375          0      0           0     25     1,829             2,707       0           29
1998-99        1,196     337          0      0           0     53     1,586             2,317       0           29
1999-00        1,031     312          0      0           0     75     1,418             2,064       0           23
2000-01          847     283          0      0           0     84     1,214             1,728       0           36
2001-02          731     306        684      0           0    105     1,826             2,573       0           57
2002-03          935     304      1,166      0           0    183     2,588             3,559       0           49
2003-04        1,359     414      1,670      0           0    179     3,622             4,880       0           32
2004-05          878     389      2,370      0           0    154     3,791             4,974       0           26
2005-06          879     332      3,367      0           0     24     4,602             5,884       0           23
2006-07        1,456     313      4,463      0           0     76     6,308             7,831       0           30
2007-08        1,123     310      3,673      0           0    187     5,293             6,413       0           21
2008-09          347     206      4,073      0           0    356     4,982             5,876       0           21
2009-10          551     204      3,564      0         184    171     4,674             5,436       0           22
2010-11          -51     205      3,492      0         221    359     4,226             4,825       0           25
2011-12         -131     214      3,745     54         518    136     4,536             5,112       0           18
2012-13         -420     164      3,780    210       1,206    214     5,155             5,695       0           18
2013-14          -35     182      3,453    317       1,124    310     5,352             5,806       0           18
2014-15         -796     123      3,802    362       1,097    257     4,846             5,190   6,369           18
2015-16         -817     126      3,969    463         803    197     4,741             5,038   7,210           22
2016-17         -763       5      4,081    839        -200    266     4,228             4,392   5,683           18
2017-18         -223       5      4,199  2,088           0    297     6,365             6,482   5,917           17
2018-19          417       5      3,859  2,610           0    167     7,058             7,058   5,629           16
 

TheWalrus

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That may be the case a
I don't think that's ever been the case.
The usual presentation of the figures is that passenger operations overall cover their costs and any subsidy, but go nowhere near paying for forward investment by Network Rail.
That is a shortfall of the order of £2-3 billion a year.
nd
I don't think that's ever been the case.
The usual presentation of the figures is that passenger operations overall cover their costs and any subsidy, but go nowhere near paying for forward investment by Network Rail.
That is a shortfall of the order of £2-3 billion a year.
Maybe that is what I read but it was a long time ago.
 

Starmill

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Go-Ahead almost is. It made £25m profit last year in rail, from turnover of almost £3billion. Rather less than 1%.
Do you know how that compares to the UK rail businesses at First, Abellio, Arriva and soon to be extinct Stagecoach?
 

Tetchytyke

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Go-Ahead almost is. It made £25m profit last year in rail, from turnover of almost £3billion. Rather less than 1%.

Yet their annual report brags of "low levels of capital deployment" in their rail business (i.e. they're not putting any of their own money in). So while £25m profit (and I'd love to see the expenses of the rail business, to see what they're hiding!) sounds mediocre, it's not a bad return on a tiny capital outlay.
 

option

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This table was also published today in an Excel sheet:
https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1541/government-support-to-the-rail-industry-table-16.xlsx
Code:
Government support to the rail industry - Table 1.6
                                             
Subsidy (positive values) or premium payment (negative values) made from/to Department for Transport, Transport Scotland and Welsh Government (£ million)
                                             
Great Britain Annual data (financial year): 1985-86 to 2018-19                                           
                                             
Financial yr Central Gov PTE Direct rail   HS2   Crossrail   Misc Total gov Total gov support Network Rail Freight
             grants   grants support                              support   at 2018-19 prices Loans        grants
1985-86          849      78          0      0           0     61       988             2,409       0            7
1986-87          755      70          0      0           0     22       847             1,983       0            6
1987-88          796      68          0      0           0   -251       613             1,359       0            2
1988-89          551      70          0      0           0   -175       446               929       0            2
1989-90          479      84          0      0           0    232       795             1,537       0            1
1990-91          637     115          0      0           0    440     1,192             2,130       0            4
1991-92          902     120          0      0           0    562     1,584             2,676       0            1
1992-93        1,194     107          0      0           0    870     2,171             3,578       0            2
1993-94          926     166          0      0           0    535     1,627             2,618       0            4
1994-95        1,815     346          0      0           0   -464     1,697             2,698       0            3
1995-96        1,712     362          0      0           0 -1,643       431               665       0            4
1996-97        1,809     291          0      0           0 -1,044     1,056             1,573       0           15
1997-98        1,429     375          0      0           0     25     1,829             2,707       0           29
1998-99        1,196     337          0      0           0     53     1,586             2,317       0           29
1999-00        1,031     312          0      0           0     75     1,418             2,064       0           23
2000-01          847     283          0      0           0     84     1,214             1,728       0           36
2001-02          731     306        684      0           0    105     1,826             2,573       0           57
2002-03          935     304      1,166      0           0    183     2,588             3,559       0           49
2003-04        1,359     414      1,670      0           0    179     3,622             4,880       0           32
2004-05          878     389      2,370      0           0    154     3,791             4,974       0           26
2005-06          879     332      3,367      0           0     24     4,602             5,884       0           23
2006-07        1,456     313      4,463      0           0     76     6,308             7,831       0           30
2007-08        1,123     310      3,673      0           0    187     5,293             6,413       0           21
2008-09          347     206      4,073      0           0    356     4,982             5,876       0           21
2009-10          551     204      3,564      0         184    171     4,674             5,436       0           22
2010-11          -51     205      3,492      0         221    359     4,226             4,825       0           25
2011-12         -131     214      3,745     54         518    136     4,536             5,112       0           18
2012-13         -420     164      3,780    210       1,206    214     5,155             5,695       0           18
2013-14          -35     182      3,453    317       1,124    310     5,352             5,806       0           18
2014-15         -796     123      3,802    362       1,097    257     4,846             5,190   6,369           18
2015-16         -817     126      3,969    463         803    197     4,741             5,038   7,210           22
2016-17         -763       5      4,081    839        -200    266     4,228             4,392   5,683           18
2017-18         -223       5      4,199  2,088           0    297     6,365             6,482   5,917           17
2018-19          417       5      3,859  2,610           0    167     7,058             7,058   5,629           16


well that's nicely useless!
If HS2 & Crossrail are investments, then they shouldn't be dumped in with running cost subsidies.

If you strip out HS2 from 2018-19, then government support is 4,448.
Also, isn't HS2 being delivered by a gov owned company, so should those figures be loans?
 

daccer

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If HS2 is stripped out of the costs and also the enhancement costs being incurred by NR then you should have a more reflective no. for the actual cost of running the network. The fact that we are already at 7bn for HS2 in total is a surprise. I am interested in the railways funding structure as it does seem to reflect the wider public perception of rail and we do seem happier to spend money on the system now than at any time since nationalisation. It would also be nice if in times of seemingly endemic passenger growth that the govt subsidy was reducing substantially. If so much money was not need from the public purse there would be perhaps less interference from above.
 
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