Rail franchising to face the axe in 2020

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by grumpyoldman01, 12 Oct 2019 at 23:24.

  1. grumpyoldman01

    grumpyoldman01 Member

    Messages:
    215
    Joined:
    24 Jun 2014
    Location:
    Derby
    Wasn't really concentrating, but something on tonight's first newspaper review on BBC News channel about a bill being proposed in the Queen's Speech on Monday regarding replacement of the current rail franchising system with something different - think it will be in tomorrow's 'Sunday Telegraph'

    If still awake(!), I will try to watch the later edition and add more information if any given
     
  2. Registered users do not see these banners - join or log in today!

    Rail Forums

     
  3. Edgeley

    Edgeley Member

    Messages:
    52
    Joined:
    27 Jul 2017
    Location:
    North West
    The Telegraph reports that:

    - the Conservatives would adopt the proposals of the Keith Williams review
    - Transport Secretary Shapps and Williams are agreed that franchising has 'run its course'
    - there would be changes to ticketing to simplify fares
    - there would be more local authority involvement in running services

    The railways are a weak spot for the Conservatives, particularly in a region like the north of England, so they are feeling the need to counter Labour's re-nationalisation offer. The involvement of local authorities sounds potentially piecemeal and complex given that many local services cross local authority boundaries.
     
  4. GRALISTAIR

    GRALISTAIR Established Member

    Messages:
    3,209
    Joined:
    11 Apr 2012
    Location:
    Dalton Georgia USA
    Agreed but need not have been. Should immediately reinstate the cancelled electrification schemes - two bites of the cherry in being seen as environmentally friendly too.
     
    Last edited: 14 Oct 2019 at 15:21
  5. bionic

    bionic Member

    Messages:
    857
    Joined:
    8 Nov 2013
    This is just a way for them to admit privatisation has failed but still keeping the railways privatised. A Tory government could never renationalise the railways so its either keep on flogging the current dead horse or rearrange it a bit to keep private hands on public services and keep the gravy train creaking along for a few more years.

    It's basically the same idea as sending 319s up north or refurbishing some D stocks and passing them off as new trains. Emperors new clothes syndrome. Labour failed miserably in Blair's manifesto promise to renationalise the railways and now we are stuck with this ludicrous arrangement.

    At least after Brexit when we've got our borders back and all that other empty guff we'll still be funding the state railways of Holland, Italy, France etc through our privatised railways.
     
  6. grumpyoldman01

    grumpyoldman01 Member

    Messages:
    215
    Joined:
    24 Jun 2014
    Location:
    Derby
    BBC News website lists some of the measures to be included in the Queen's Speech and shows:

    "Scrapping the rail franchise system - the contracting out of services introduced when the rail system was privatised in the 1990s"

    See: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50029325
     
  7. class26

    class26 Member

    Messages:
    524
    Joined:
    4 May 2011
    I think you will find the tax payers of the Netherlands are funding OUR railways.
     
  8. MarkyT

    MarkyT Established Member

    Messages:
    3,705
    Joined:
    20 May 2012
    Location:
    Torbay
    Doesn't detail what is intended to replace the franchising model, just weasel words about concentrating on getting trains running on time.
     
  9. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

    Messages:
    1,413
    Joined:
    4 Apr 2018
    Williams Review should say what will replace it.
     
  10. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

    Messages:
    1,413
    Joined:
    4 Apr 2018
    Bill will be presented to scrap the rail franchising system. In other words the outcome of the Williams Review
     
  11. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

    Messages:
    1,413
    Joined:
    4 Apr 2018
    It sounds like a competition and industry model as stated in the article above.

    • devolution in local areas
    • Simplified fares
    • a new commercial model and industry structure (more competition I guess)
    • new proposals for a skilled, diverse and engaged workforce
     
  12. JonathanH

    JonathanH Established Member

    Messages:
    2,624
    Joined:
    29 May 2011
    ...which was despised by some passengers even more than the current operators.

    https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/old-dirty-late-network-southeast.80194/

    Clearly restoration of Network South East doesn't mean a return to the problems which applied at that time but it might mean each route taking its turn for investment from a smaller pot of money.

    One of the reasons why people rate GTR the worst operation at the moment is because of its size. Returning the railway to public ownership does not mean the restoration of BR sectors.
     
  13. grumpyoldman01

    grumpyoldman01 Member

    Messages:
    215
    Joined:
    24 Jun 2014
    Location:
    Derby
    The entry on the BBC News website has now been extended to read:

    It will be interesting to see what changes are proposed for the industry structure.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 14 Oct 2019 at 09:05
  14. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

    Messages:
    13,293
    Joined:
    22 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Mold, Clwyd
    This really is an enabling Bill to allow changes to the statutory structure of the railway (franchising, Network Rail, DfT Rail, ORR, RSSB etc).
    It might also relate to the EU railway regulations (Fourth Railway Package etc), which may, or more likely may not, apply in the future.
    I somehow doubt if the Transport Secretary actually has a White Paper to pull out of his hat when the Queen's Speach gets debated in the Commons later this week.
    However, he's bound to give some pointers to the line of thinking, and the timetable for changes.
    The current franchise owning groups will want to know where they stand, not least First Trenitalia with a 10-year contract hardly dry from its award in August.
     
  15. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

    Messages:
    1,413
    Joined:
    4 Apr 2018
    Rail franchise being scrapped news from CityAM

    https://www.cityam.com/rail-franchising-model-set-to-be-scrapped-by-boris-johnson/

     
  16. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

    Messages:
    24,043
    Joined:
    1 Feb 2009
    Location:
    UK
    Won't this mean a move to management contracts like GTR? Then let the DfT come up with the spec; trains, timetables, routes and so on.

    Let a private company run things for a fixed-fee with bonuses based on KPIs, then sit back and let the operator take the blame for everything - but not care as long as they get paid.

    I've already heard a wild rumour that GTR might have its contract extended. Given performance is now reaching or even exceeding 90% PPM, the DfT might think it has weathered the storm and things are beginning to settle down (at least until the next proper timetable change and routes kick in).
     
  17. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

    Messages:
    1,413
    Joined:
    4 Apr 2018
    I Suspect not the DfT as Williams has confirmed the DfT will not manage the railways anymore. West Midlands Railway will be ran by TfWM and East Midlands Railway (local services) will be ran by Midlands Connect? Based off London Overground and Merseyrail. I suspect another model will be used for long distance and inter-urban services.
     
  18. Dr Day

    Dr Day Member

    Messages:
    58
    Joined:
    16 Oct 2018
    Location:
    Bristol
    Does 'new commercial model' mean the state in some form (possibly devolved bodies) also taking revenue risk - so that the simplified fares mentioned don't have to be revenue neutral for future operators? ie making rail potentially easier to operate as a policy instrument to tackle congestion and decarbonisation rather than a set of fragmented companies trying to make a profit within a set of regulations? Still with private companies operating services. but as management contracts only. Wouldn't necessarily mean an end to Advances, just the motivation would be demand management rather than revenue raids off other operators.
     
  19. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    42,152
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    But what of the rural regional services? If you give them to County Councils they'll just end up closed. And if you don't fear that, go and look at what happens in Germany - lines quietly close with "nichts bestellt" (nothing ordered) with no fanfare - just like all the bus services we've lost due to austerity, but unlike bus services which could be put back on within a few weeks if the money was there the rail services tend to be lost forever.
     
  20. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

    Messages:
    1,413
    Joined:
    4 Apr 2018
    I suspect rural lines may end up with strictly specified service under a reformed SRA with operates been given a 'public service contract' to operate the services with strict targets to meet so this could be improve frequency, or improve standards, punctuality ect.
     
  21. BucksBones

    BucksBones Member

    Messages:
    197
    Joined:
    18 Jul 2017
    I’m very suspicious of this. It’s classic Tory decentralisation. They’ll pass responsibility downwards, publicly trumpet their expectations without giving the regional authorities enough funding to fulfil them (transport authorities won’t have any funding to subsidise services any more than they do with buses outside London) then criticise any shortcomings and absolve themselves of any responsibility when things inevitably go wrong. I would worry about ANY lines or services that don’t turn a consistent profit.




    Spot on I’m afraid.
     
  22. leightonbd

    leightonbd Member

    Messages:
    230
    Joined:
    4 Oct 2013
    Location:
    Edinburgh (South Sub)
    Remember that anything in this Queen’s Speech is just a vote-grab ahead of an election in the next 3-6 months. It’s the QS after that which will matter. Both parties policies could easily flip-flop during the campaign.
     
  23. Chrisgr31

    Chrisgr31 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,526
    Joined:
    2 Aug 2011
    It's difficult to see how you can have payments to TOCs based on performance and reliability. Surely all it will mean is much bigger arguments over whose fault delays are? After all the current TOCs dont plan for the trains to be unreliable! Its difficult to see how, particularly on the main commuting routes, you are going to improve reliability.

    How much of the current delays are caused by factors which the TOCs have control over? Presumably its only things like train failures?
     
  24. RealTrains07

    RealTrains07 Member

    Messages:
    1,003
    Joined:
    28 Feb 2019
    Well should work well for WMR when they seperate from the WM franchise in the 2020s
     
  25. RealTrains07

    RealTrains07 Member

    Messages:
    1,003
    Joined:
    28 Feb 2019
    how many more rail franchises can be regionally controlled? WMR makes sense due to its geographical position but what about franchises like GWR and SWR? which spread over a longer distance. I dont see much improving anytime soon
     
  26. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    43,712
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Please use this thread to discuss what is actually proposed.

    If anyone wishes to post suggestions on what they think might or should happen please use: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...d-replace-the-rail-franchising-system.193532/ thanks

    To discuss politics please use the General Discussion section.

    To discuss fares please use Fares Advice & Policy (update: I have created a thread here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/proposals-for-simpler-fares.193537/ ) or for PAYG in the SouthEast specifically please use: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...uth-east-area-result-in-simpler-fares.193556/


    The forum has plenty of capacity for all of these topics to be discussed in their own threads to avoid an unwieldy 'master' thread with multiple discussions occuring at cross purposes ;)

    Thanks! :)
     
    Last edited: 14 Oct 2019 at 16:57
  27. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

    Messages:
    20,971
    Joined:
    6 Aug 2009
    Location:
    Yorks
    Any decentralisation of services which doesn't also decentralise the funding to provide those services, isn't worth the paper it's written on.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 14 Oct 2019 at 08:14
  28. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    42,152
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    Indeed, but you know what they'll do - they'll decentralise the funding then cut it, and bang go our subsidised rail services.
     
  29. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Established Member

    Messages:
    3,947
    Joined:
    12 Apr 2012
    Or more correctly, that the current franchise system is not working properly - which is hardly going to come as a surprise to anyone. The choice isn't a binary choice between the current model and full nationalisation. There are probably dozens of different ways the railways could in principle be structured. I guess for now we still have to wait to see what the Williams Review comes up with.
     
  30. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    43,712
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Indeed! But in the meantime anyone wishes to come up with suggestions, please do so :D we have a thread for that purpose here: Speculation: what could replace the rail franchising system?

    There's also a thread specifically for suggestions regarding what to do with XC here: Crosscountry franchise is unnecessary and should not be renewed

    Just a reminder to post any suggestions in the following thread please: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...d-replace-the-rail-franchising-system.193532/ thanks :)
     
    Last edited: 14 Oct 2019 at 16:58
  31. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

    Messages:
    22,365
    Joined:
    12 Oct 2010
    Location:
    Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
    I suspect the initial proposals for ECML and SE franchises point in the direction of travel: An alliance or partnership

    NR have already begun to "devolve" to "regions" which I cant imagine has been decided on in isolation ( https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-regions/ )
     

Share This Page