Rail Industry Recovery Group

[Andrew1395]

I must admit, I've never had reason to know the public transport options for Peppa Pig World

It’s a train to Southampton, but i expect its a swine of a journey by taxi to get to the gate

 

[yorksrob]

I think greater flexibility on "residential" (aka commuting) validity would be the most likely scenario - perhaps a return to ye olde days where you got 8 miles' season ticket for free, or 40 miles around London. Or simply having industry-wide residential interavailability.

That would particularly tie in with the proposals for people to be moved around the industry, as part of the RIRG voluntary redundancy and retraining scheme.

That's intersting as I'd been more considering leisure travel (I'd assumed railway employment was too shift based to suit commuting by train).

It’s a train to Southampton, but i expect its a swine of a journey by taxi to get to the gate

At least one can pig out on the train back !

 

[Watershed]

That's intersting as I'd been more considering leisure travel (I'd assumed railway employment was too shift based to suit commuting by train).

For traincrew roles, yes the train service won't normally work for many shifts. A far cry from when you had Marylebone guards based as far afield as Swindon, commuting in on the mail train!

However there are still multiple other roles where commuting by train is a viable option. That's where I would expect a degree of flexibility, if the outcome of the RIRG is that people end up based somewhere different - and/or on a different TOC's line.

 

[Need2]

I don’t think there’s going to be a pay rise for Sundays. A ‘here’s your new contract, you now work five days a week including Sundays and your base pay is £40000’ is far more likely.

Is your statement a ‘fictional example’?
40k, probably for all drivers would represent a massive pay cut.
You’d be lucky if any trains ran.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Is your statement a ‘fictional example’?
40k, probably for all drivers would represent a massive pay cut.
You’d be lucky if any trains ran.

For some, it would represent a 33% or more paycut. Including Mr Mintona.

33. Percent. One entire third.

If ANYONE thinks that's what we deserve, I'd be astounded. I can't even see this government going that far.

 

[387star]

For some, it would represent a 33% or more paycut. Including Mr Mintona.

33. Percent. One entire third.

If ANYONE thinks that's what we deserve, I'd be astounded. I can't even see this government going that far.

Afaik they aren't and pay deals pre covid are preserved
70k for swr with a guard guarantee

 

[squizzler]

Can't get a train to Peppa Pig World, and apparently, that's not a good enough excuse not to go....

It’s a train to Southampton, but i expect its a swine of a journey by taxi to get to the gate

I had no idea there was a Peppa Pig theme park in Southampton. Do they have enough plastic pigs for guests to ride in, as I gather there are some going spare.

 

[Robertj21a]

Yet you seem to ignore the widespread damage the unions can inflict by ordering a strike.

Do I think striking is wise? Probably not. But will it be effective? Certainly for drivers I think so. HMG won't want the country griding to a halt amid an economic recovery.

I'm not going to roll over and take whatever beating you think we deserve because someone else let it happen to them.

I think your views are more akin to the 1980s, Scargill, miners etc etc.
By the way, this is 2021......

 

[Need2]

If ANYONE thinks that's what we deserve, I'd be astounded. I can't even see this government going that far.

I hope you’re right!

 

[Bald Rick]

For example, there was never such a thing as a "Priv" card before privatisation - tickets had to be applied for in advance. Instead there was more region-based validity, which of course cut both ways.

There certainly were priv cards pre privatisation, I had one!

I must admit, I've never had reason to know the public transport options for Peppa Pig World

They do a great bacon sandwich.

 

[tiptoptaff]

I think your views are more akin to the 1980s, Scargill, miners etc etc.
By the way, this is 2021......

My views on strikes aren't as militant as you'd think. Especially someone like you who's got a massive chip on their shoulder about staff in general.

Let me be clear. I personally think striking now wouldn't be great as it'll garner no public support. I don't generally support the industrial action that the unions undertakes at the best of times, especially over relatively petty things.

I know the unions don't have the strength they did. However, I also fully believe that they still hold far more strength and power than some posters here would like to believe.

And if you think that we should be happy to roll over and take whatever comes our way, because you have a distorted view of our current package, then you're sorely mistaken. Why should I accept poor treatment just because it's been dished our before.

This is going to be a massive upheaval for the industry, mainly for the staff. We have to take a stand somewhere, otherwise in a few years time hidden will have gone and we'll be back to working like the 1980s, on poor pay doing every hours overtime under the sun to make ends meet. That is NOT where this country should be going. And no one should want that for anyone else, whatever industry they're in.

 

[irish_rail]

For some, it would represent a 33% or more paycut. Including Mr Mintona.

33. Percent. One entire third.

If ANYONE thinks that's what we deserve, I'd be astounded. I can't even see this government going that far.

Christ thatd be folk unable to pay the mortgage, etc, not gonna happen in a million years, would cause greater economic damage than it would repair . Any pay cut will be tiny or even a freeze at worst. Anyone who thinks otherwise is quite deluded.
As if the the Gov plan to train up a whole new breed of cheapo drivers, don't forget they need to be out learning and training...with existing drivers, who may be rather less co operative if the carpet is to be pulled from under them.....

 

[tiptoptaff]

Christ thatd be folk unable to pay the mortgage, etc, not gonna happen in a million years, would cause greater economic damage than it would repair . Any pay cut will be tiny or even a freeze at worst. Anyone who thinks otherwise is quite deluded.
As if the the Gov plan to train up a whole new breed of cheapo drivers, don't forget they need to be out learning and training...with existing drivers, who may be rather less co operative if the carpet is to be pulled from under them.....

Of course, but you forget, there's a large number of people who'd love to put the boot in to us, as an industry as a whole.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hope you’re right!

I'd see a long freeze of those on higher pay as more likely.

 

[yorksrob]

They do a great bacon sandwich.

Twinned with brown sauce world no doubt !

 

[Horizon22]

A lot of office worker, yes. However not all office workers can work from home and I would imagine a fair few employers of office workers won’t want staff at home.

Ultimately a strike would affect the lowest paid, who have no option but to work on site.

 

[Horizon22]

I don’t think there’s going to be a pay rise for Sundays. A ‘here’s your new contract, you now work five days a week including Sundays and your base pay is £40000’ is far more likely.

Possibly. And we'd exacerbate the already existing driver shortage with plenty of those in their 50s/60s deciding to take the optional redundancy.

 

[Need2]

Possibly. And we'd exacerbate the already existing driver shortage with plenty of those in their 50s/60s deciding to take the optional redundancy.

Possibly, You’re having a laugh!
Even Boris couldn’t expect (hopefully) any workforce to lay down and accept an extra day at work and a 30% pay cut.

 

[43066]

To be clear I don't want any "fire and rehire" or "smashing of unions" or anything similar to happen of this to happen but I'm extremely concerned that there's significant risk of a grave strategic miscalculation by ignoring what's happened over the last year and by missing the mood music. This isn't 2015 when the railway was probably at its most (if sometimes often grudgingly) popular with passengers and the wider public. This isn't 2017 when the Government was weak and distracted by brewing the Brexit Wars. This is 2021. The industries reputation with the public is in the toilet after fiascos like the May 2018 timetable change, the Treasury are clearly gunning for getting something in exchange for the billions they spent propping it up*, the Government have a huge majority and a tame media who would love nothing better than a good union breaking story.

I'm seriously concerned that the Unions in question are in danger of over playing their hand which also isn't to suggest that they should just doff their caps and go "yes sir, thank you sir, would sir like to beat me again now or later?" in the face of any demands. But I worry that there's a danger of miscalculation and thinking that the rules that applied previously still apply when I'm really not sure that they do at all.

*50p says that if they had their time over again the Treasury would have insisted that TOCs furlough staff and slash services to a minimum (see Eurostar where staff are rotated on and off of furlough to keep competency whilst running a handful of trains) rather than basically paying out to keep everything as it was pre-pandemic just with fewer trains running.

I don't think that you deserve a beating. I do know though, having written many of them, the focus on media handling/public opinion that there is in any ministerial submission. In the current context of public sector pay freezes, including for major parts of the NHS, teachers etc, any pay rises in an industry which has been bleeding money hand over fist has zero chance of passing the "Daily Mail' test.
Rightly or wrongly a great swathe of the UK population believe that staff in the rail industry are overpaid already. A pay rise involving more taxpayers money would create a ****-storm reaction. In the current circumstances, where savings are being sought across the board in the public sector, even a cost-neutral solution might not be deemed acceptable.

Two very sensible posts above, which I suspect most in the industry would fully agree with. I take a lot of comfort from the fact that the time to really “smash the unions” would have been last year, not so much now when ridership is back up 50%+ and rising. Also the fact that the current government is fundamentally populist, and “bad news” stories about strikes aren’t what is needed.

I’m just not sure the appetite is there for fire rehire and £20k+ paycuts being imposed. I have a sneaking suspicion that Sundays won’t be brought into the working week, either, for those who don’t want them. That said I completely agree that the idea of striking now for more pay is a terrible one.

Possibly. And we'd exacerbate the already existing driver shortage with plenty of those in their 50s/60s deciding to take the optional redundancy.

Certainly a lot knocking around most train crew messrooms who have one foot in retirement, mortgages long since paid off, decent pensions who are choosing to continue working rather than having to.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

What none of us know, or maybe some do, is what govt short term expectations are currently. The treasury provided D of T 3.7B to cover heavy rail Covid support down from 8.3B from last year. RIRG document quoted monthly extra costs of £800m although I suspect that was used as a headline figure and was related to when lockdown was heavily suppressing travel so will be less now. However, its a one year deal so is expectation that this deficit has to be eliminated? Maybe but it will take at least 12-18 months for the new normal to be established of travel demands across commuting, business and leisure sectors so in short term savings should be targeted at variable costs that can be easily switched on or off like storing units rather than destroying capacity. Staffing costs should be managed through minimising overtime without undermining ability to maximise income. I also sense that as long as unions and management are making headway in delivering a more efficient the govt will provide further support over the following financial year.

Also GBR has just been born which is govt owned idea so they will want it to be a success and that needs giving it time to become established and set out a vision.

So i don't expect any substantial change to where services levels are currently but neither do i see much in the way of further service level increases.

 

[Mag_seven]

As most of the discussion here is highly speculative at the moment, we have decided to temporarily lock this thread until such times as the Recovery Group comes up with some actual proposals.

When this happens can someone please alert a member of forum staff and we will re-open the thread.

Thanks