Rail Magazine Gibber

[Ferret]

I was somewhat taken aback to read an extract from Rail Magazine this morning, though given that it was presumably written by Barry Doe, maybe I shouldn't be!!!!

Apparently, Guards should not be writing dates on tickets! He says this as part of a legitimate rant about Guards trying to make up their own break of journey rules, but why can't we write (or stamp) the date of use on a ticket? Suppose I'd better go in the office later and get my ticket stampers modified, eh folks?

 

[mumrar]

Why exactly is this a problem. It has helped me to spot that somebody is blatantly trying to use a ticket more than once for a journey.

I've hardly ever understood the 'logic' that comes from his part of the magazine, and it's been getting more and more over zealous as time goes on. It actually puts me off purchasing what is otherwise a great publication, so perhaps he should be advised to tone down the sniping or strike out on his own. Too often in there, and sometimes on here, a mistake made by a guard regarding ticketing will be protrayed as a deliberate act to incovenience or extract money from the travelling masses, which is utter crap.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Well, when the guards / train managers / whoever had the blue plastic stampers did not they print the date as well as the four character headcode on the tickets?

Come to think of it, why are there so few such stampers around these days? Surely that was a much better way of marking a ticket than the usual squiggle with a biro we see now?

 

[barrykas]

Come to think of it, why are there so few such stampers around these days? Surely that was a much better way of marking a ticket than the usual squiggle with a biro we see now?

I suspect the answer to that question is one of cost. You can buy an awful lot of biros for the price of one stamper.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[theblackwatch]

Scribbling on tickets in the style of a 2 year old with a biro hardly looks professional. Is this the image the TOCs wish to portray?

 

[Mintona]

Scribbling on tickets in the style of a 2 year old with a biro hardly looks professional. Is this the image the TOCs wish to portray?

It's the way I do it. Pens are much cheaper than stamps.

 

[John Webb]

Barry Doe was criticising guards for writing dates on tickets and telling people that they had to complete their journey on that day, when the type of ticket involved allows both breaks in journeys and for the journey to be resumed on another day. (EG 'Anytime Returns' where the outward journey is valid for 5 days and journey breaks allowed at any time in this period.) He goes on to say that tickets are valid up until the date printed on it.

All this is part of his long-term campaign to get an easily-understood ticketing system both for the general public and the railway staff who have to enforce the ticket system - he's using this as an example where the rules have not been made clear to (or possibly understood by) the TOC staff because of their complexity.

As an occasional user of trains I have to say it's a campaign I happily give my support to!

John Webb

 

[Failed Unit]

I can see the point about the date is a good way to spot fraud. The ones on the stamp normally smudge one the ticket is back in the wallet. Annoying if you need to prove you were on a train.

Open question. What is a reasonable time to break a journey? When would you suspect someone was reusing a return if the handed over a ticket at York dated a week ago if it was a London to Edinburgh ticket?

Unfortunately too many people do reuse tickets. I have seen some gaurds rip flexipasses up to prevent this.

 

[theblackwatch]

It's the way I do it. Pens are much cheaper than stamps.

Is it an official TOC policy to give you a biro rather than a stamp/clipper? If I have broken my journey, how would the second guard do his 3 year old impressions, presumably find a different coloured pen?

 

[John Webb]

.....Open question. What is a reasonable time to break a journey? ......

To my mind the 'reasonable time' is whatever the conditions of issue of a particular type of ticket allow - not what an individual railway person thinks it ought to be, which is the main point of Barry Doe's 'rant'.

John Webb

 

[dave4jackie]

I can see the point about the date is a good way to spot fraud. The ones on the stamp normally smudge one the ticket is back in the wallet. Annoying if you need to prove you were on a train.

Open question. What is a reasonable time to break a journey? When would you suspect someone was reusing a return if the handed over a ticket at York dated a week ago if it was a London to Edinburgh ticket?
Unfortunately too many people do reuse tickets. I have seen some gaurds rip flexipasses up to prevent this.

it makes no difference as the ticket is valid for 1 month so you could break your journey overnight at as many stations you want on the way back to london and for as long as you want

 

[sheff1]

Scribbling on tickets in the style of a 2 year old with a biro hardly looks professional. Is this the image the TOCs wish to portray?

It would appear it is.

But scribbling on tickets seems rather pointless. The stamps with date and train headcode make it clear when, and what train, the ticket had been used (but not on which section of the journey). A scribble tells you nothing useful.

 

[Failed Unit]

I know it is an industry problem but people do reuse the ticket by buying a single ticket to point B and the claim the have broke the journey when the return is reused. Saying that I think the number is small compared to other examples of fraud.

 

[sheff1]

Open question. What is a reasonable time to break a journey? When would you suspect someone was reusing a return if the handed over a ticket at York dated a week ago if it was a London to Edinburgh ticket?

Why should you suspect anything? It is perfectly vaild to break the journey as often as you like for as long as you like.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unfortunately too many people do reuse tickets. I have seen some gaurds rip flexipasses up to prevent this.

I do not understand this. Surely if fraud is suspected, the ticket should be retained as evidence not destroyed.

 

[Oswyntail]

Again, we are apparently addressing ticketing fraud. How does an illegible squiggle in biro do this? No, it is not the date in any intelligible format, judging by the several examples I have in front of me. And who's to argue if a passenger claims the scribble on the ticket was put there by his 3-year-old-niece? If this is an official mark to show the ticket has been used on a particular date (and, preferably, on a particular train) then it should be unambiguous, and its meaning clear to both railway and customer. If it is not, and it is used in evidence in court, I doubt it would only be the ticket that was torn to shreds. If, there is a major problem in ticket fraud (and where are the evidence-based figures, or are we actually only going on anecdotes) then it should be combatted properly. And that probably means a complete, industry-wide review of fares, ticketing and routing - so never going to happen.

 

[Greenback]

Again, we are apparently addressing ticketing fraud. How does an illegible squiggle in biro do this? No, it is not the date in any intelligible format, judging by the several examples I have in front of me. And who's to argue if a passenger claims the scribble on the ticket was put there by his 3-year-old-niece? If this is an official mark to show the ticket has been used on a particular date (and, preferably, on a particular train) then it should be unambiguous, and its meaning clear to both railway and customer. If it is not, and it is used in evidence in court, I doubt it would only be the ticket that was torn to shreds. If, there is a major problem in ticket fraud (and where are the evidence-based figures, or are we actually only going on anecdotes) then it should be combatted properly. And that probably means a complete, industry-wide review of fares, ticketing and routing - so never going to happen.

I agree. It's perfectly reasonable that a person may have a long distance ticket and break their return journey to visit friends or family, for example. It's something the motorist frequently does, if only on a short route.

I felt the article was quite fair. Often staff are very suspicious of someone who has broken their journey, but this is permitted on many types of ticket. I'd be interested to know whether the guards on here have recieved any official instruction in regard to marking tickets in this way, or to questioning the passenger who breaks their journey overnight.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

In reality, only a small percentage of people are going to take five days to get from A-B, with no more than that taking the rest of the month to get back to A. So, in the grand scheme of things, does writing 'the date of use' on the ticket actually matter.....not really.

To most people, the writing of the date on the ticket may help to deter them from re-using it (they don't want the hassle or what have you), only the determined would try to use it again.

So what harm does writing the date of use on the ticket actually do?....not a lot.

It would perhaps be better if the TOCs had some sort of automated stamper that the guard collects at the start of his/her duty and hands back in afterwards (helping to ensure the company has sufficiant of them at an efficient price).

If a phone can navigate you from one place to another then surely an electronic stamper could print the geographic position that the ticket was checked and the date/time on the ticket. Can it really be that hard to do?

 

[mumrar]

And who's to argue if a passenger claims the scribble on the ticket was put there by his 3-year-old-niece?

Well, it that scenario, the customer is liable to pay as they have allowed their ticket to become defaced, and if the ticket is damaged/defaced in such a way as to no longer be able to ascertain it's validity, then a replacement should be purchased.

Just out of interest, how many 3-year-olds can actually tell, let alone write, the date in correct 4 figure format such as 26/10 for example? Not many

 

[Greenback]

It may be only a small percentage, buit it's a small percentage of a large number of people!

It's something that a car owner tends to take for granted - as an example, drive off to Brighton on Friday, stop off at Aunty Peggy's in Croydon on Sunday night, pop in and see a friend in Reading for a few beers on Monday, and then back home. It's something my brother does all the time, although he tends to go to Cornwall and stop off at various friends and relations on the way back.

Rail has a hard enough time as it is competing with the car for most journeys. If we want to get more people out of their cars and on to trains with spare capacity, we must find a better way of doing things!

Sorry, a referral to HHF in the first line, but I was a bit slow!

 

[theblackwatch]

Well, it that scenario, the customer is liable to pay as they have allowed their ticket to become defaced, and if the ticket is damaged/defaced in such a way as to no longer be able to ascertain it's validity, then a replacement should be purchased.

Just out of interest, how many 3-year-olds can actually tell, let alone write, the date in correct 4 figure format such as 26/10 for example? Not many

I cannot see anything on the NRCOC that says a scribble makes a ticket invalid. If you can point out where this is stated it would be appreciated. And if it is the case, why are rail staff making it invalid by defacing it when it may, in fact, still be valid for further use within a specific period for the remaining leg of a journey?

 

[Anvil1984]

I admit I am a scribbler and a dater when I inspect tickets.

The problem with the ticket fraud on SORs is not on the likes of Edinburgh to Londons its found on the shorter ones like the New Pudsey to York ones (which are also legitimately as Leeds to York SORs as Leeds to York only has day returns but I digress) If I'm picking up that train from Leeds going to York and do my usual full check and see one of those tickets with a scribble or a hole in then it could be that they ve had it seen by last guard (which is unlikely on a couple of them due to it being used) having a date from another guard on there gives us a good line of questioning if we are suspicious. If you ask why was it dated yesterday then they will either say (if they are intelligent) I only used it as far as Leeds or 9 times out of 10 they will say its an old one and can I have a new one.Also if you ask to see the return portion and its just got a hole in then it could be a mistake from a colleague and the passenger hasn't realised or it might be something blatent again a date gives an extra clue.

Officially at our depot we are supposed to use our hole punch BUT they are cheap £1.50 ones which aren't good for the job, they jam and start spitting the punched holes back after the 20th or so one and on the Harrogate line when you are checking in excess of 70 tickets from York they are useless. Also the company issues other depots with Sharpie pens so we have no set proceedure it seems.That's my POV, I have no issue with the rest of the article about splitting tickets but the headline and saying we have no right to do it is downright wrong in my and nearly all guards opinion

 

[Wyvern]

Just a comment. Since the ticket remains the train company's property, its authorised representatives can mark it as they like surely?

 

[Anvil1984]

I think the only thing we can't do I'd put a big cross on it as that means its void, there are many endorsments which we are told to make if the passenger has no railcard, often if my service is late I will put headcode on and write service was late for passengers with connections. I admit the squiggles don't look professional (I tend to put a line through the date or circle it) but until my TOC invest in the ink stampers its the best I can do

 

[mumrar]

I cannot see anything on the NRCOC that says a scribble makes a ticket invalid. If you can point out where this is stated it would be appreciated.

Condition 23. If a ticket has been damaged or has been tampered with or altered in any way, it is not valid for travel.

 

[route101]

I had my Thurso to Glasgow flat fare promo scribbled with '30/10'. Last got a stamp on XC .

 

[Scotrail84]

I admit I am a scribbler and a dater when I inspect tickets.

The problem with the ticket fraud on SORs is not on the likes of Edinburgh to Londons its found on the shorter ones like the New Pudsey to York ones (which are also legitimately as Leeds to York SORs as Leeds to York only has day returns but I digress) If I'm picking up that train from Leeds going to York and do my usual full check and see one of those tickets with a scribble or a hole in then it could be that they ve had it seen by last guard (which is unlikely on a couple of them due to it being used) having a date from another guard on there gives us a good line of questioning if we are suspicious. If you ask why was it dated yesterday then they will either say (if they are intelligent) I only used it as far as Leeds or 9 times out of 10 they will say its an old one and can I have a new one.Also if you ask to see the return portion and its just got a hole in then it could be a mistake from a colleague and the passenger hasn't realised or it might be something blatent again a date gives an extra clue.

Officially at our depot we are supposed to use our hole punch BUT they are cheap £1.50 ones which aren't good for the job, they jam and start spitting the punched holes back after the 20th or so one and on the Harrogate line when you are checking in excess of 70 tickets from York they are useless. Also the company issues other depots with Sharpie pens so we have no set proceedure it seems.That's my POV, I have no issue with the rest of the article about splitting tickets but the headline and saying we have no right to do it is downright wrong in my and nearly all guards opinion

We get issued anti fraud pens which are great for flexis as the ink cannot be rubbed of no matter how hard they try. They are staedtler lumocolour permanent and at £5 each not cheap. I also use a hole punch which i bought myself but is frowned upon now as it can stop tickets working in the barriers if the magnetic strip is damaged in any way, also the clippings can make a mess if the punch has now holding area for the clippings. I also have a crimp which imprints SCOTRAIL into the ticket which is very good but it can jam from time to time. There is no ideal way to endorse a ticket i guess its just what the individual feels comfortable with.

 

[142094]

Just a comment. Since the ticket remains the train company's property, its authorised representatives can mark it as they like surely?

Here's a one - a council finds a ticket on the street as litter - since it remains the property of the TOC, is the TOC liable for any fine?

 

[route101]

We get issued anti fraud pens which are great for flexis as the ink cannot be rubbed of no matter how hard they try. They are staedtler lumocolour permanent and at £5 each not cheap. I also use a hole punch which i bought myself but is frowned upon now as it can stop tickets working in the barriers if the magnetic strip is damaged in any way, also the clippings can make a mess if the punch has now holding area for the clippings. I also have a crimp which imprints SCOTRAIL into the ticket which is very good but it can jam from time to time. There is no ideal way to endorse a ticket i guess its just what the individual feels comfortable with.

Ive not had anyone punch my tickets for a long time.

 

[Scotrail84]

Ive not had anyone punch my tickets for a long time.

Whats your regular route?

 

[theblackwatch]

Condition 23. If a ticket has been damaged or has been tampered with or altered in any way, it is not valid for travel.

If a scrawl counts as tampering, must remember to tell the guard that when he is making exactly the same mark on the ticket then - how would one tell the difference between the two types of scrawl?