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A few years ago (Midland Mainline days) I had a Sheffield to London Z1 travelcard. On the outward journey the conductor did the scribble thing, but large enough to reach from top to bottom of the ticket.
On the return journey the conductor claimed this 'cross' meant the ticket was void and tried to charge me a single fare :-x. Obviously, I refused to pay and suggested he contacted the person who was defacing tickets on the morning train.
CarterUSM
Established Member
I generally wont mark a long distance ticket unless the journey is being finished on my particular service. The bigger problem where i am is people re-using their outward portion of day returns later on. I come across this every day, though it is more prevalent on the backshift. If i mark someones return portion and they hand me the used outward also, i'll mark that too. I won't even go into flexi passes, but they take up far more of my commercial duties time than they should!
Matt Taylor
Established Member
Condition 23 is for things like this:
http://matthew-taylor.fotopic.net/p55442954.html
I check hundreds of tickets each day and don't have a problem differentiating between a ticket that has been marked by a member of staff and a ticket that has been altered/tampered with.
Well a Number of routes . Busby to Glasgow Central, Edinburgh to Glasgow .
That's outstanding! Did the owner have a senior railcard?
I'd like to ask Mr Doe something - if Guards aren't allowed to put dates on tickets, exactly how would he have us endorse them? My stampers endorse tickets with date, headcode and my personal ID number. Personally I find a holepunch to be meaningless - a whole host of RPIs have holepunches and when they barrier a station, they tend to use them. Stamping date and headcode is far more meaningful - it tells me if a ticket has been used on a train or not! I seem to recall catching somebody using an SVR for the second time out of Doncaster like that - one of my colleagues had stamped it with a 1E**; if it had been a holepunch I'd have assumed East Coast/XC were running a barrier that day and let her use it (again).
Something of a shame really - Barry Doe has taken the gloss of his article somewhat. It does highlight an issue which does exist - that of Guards/TTIs making up rules as they go along, of course giving the rest of us a bad name. Perhaps Mr Doe would be better served sticking to highlighting such issues rather than launching into a rant that in the end is factually incorrect!
I don't see exactly what benefit writing the date on a ticket valid on more than one day brings. Sure many ticket stampers do have them, and it is useful, but the issue here is guards manually writing dates and then claiming that once it has been marked as being used on the date it is no longer valid on any other days, which is incorrect.
I completely agree with the article, saying guards must not endorse tickets I believe is probably a misunderstanding of what was being written, but I cannot see what benefit it brings other than wasting time.
I completely agree with the article, saying guards must not endorse tickets I believe is probably a misunderstanding of what was being written, but I cannot see what benefit it brings other than wasting time.
That is one of the most ridiculous conditions I have ever come across. Damaged when a small corner is mis-torn off the ticket machine? Damaged because it got wet in the pouring rain on a platform where there was no shelter? Altered in any way - by an official writing on it, or is that tampering? It is yet another example of an attempt to address a "problem" without putting any thought into what the problem is or whether there is a more reasonable solution.
Looking at tickets in my pocket I can find: circled dates; a sprawling "Z" mark; something that looks like a Greek "phi"; a squiggle; and a cross written without taking the pen off the paper so with lots of extra bits. There is NO standard mark, nothing to tell the customer what it means, nothing to tell other staff what it means. All it can legitimately convey is that someone with a pen has written on the ticket. I do have one with a clipper mark on it; it has the date of inspection (and the train number, though that is perhaps gibberish to the customer).
When will the people who create these conditions and implement these systems realise that the customer is not the enemy, and that if better thought out systems were in place a lot of the problems at the customer/railways interface would vanish?
Sorry if this comes out wrong (it often does) but it helps us a lot when it comes to potetially fraudulent tickets and is more effective than a holepunch, if you did the job you might appreciate it more.
Again I agree with most the article about guards not understanding the rules regarding SORs properly or making them up, buit I cant agree with him stating we have no rights to mark tickets
Again I agree with most the article about guards not understanding the rules regarding SORs properly or making them up, buit I cant agree with him stating we have no rights to mark tickets
I couldn't agree more - half the endorsements on tickets are like some form of hieroglyphic. What use is that to me?! Date and headcode is a useful endorsement - just some random scrawl could've been done by a 5 year old tells me nothing!
Correct but the fraudulent users of the tickets are, we could go like the continent and make passengers stamp there own tickets prior to joining the train to make sure they had a proper stamp on. The problem is from TOC to TOC and even within that TOC (depot to depot), there is no set proceed to stamping tickets. I say the ink stampers are the best form HOWEVER the current ticket stock is useless or maybe the thermal printer as the information just rubs off. Hole punches look professional to the traveller but for revenue protection on fraudlulent tickets mean nothing and if stamped in wrong place look. Sqiggles look rubbish and have no use, a circle / dated around the date if done properyl can help revenue protection if there is a suspicious ticket or a dated and headcoded ticket is best for all parties in case of complaint/delay but takes ages.
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I sort of agree but try writing all of those on everyticket on a 4 car set with stations every two minutes hence the quick squiggle unless a passenger is going further
I know what you mean! I managed to forget my stampers one day recently so had to resort to a biro - it's a real pain in the arse to keep writing headcode and date! Still, it was my own fault........:roll:
Yes - that is the key. How many of the customer relations problems on the railways would vanish if this little bit were to be addressed.:roll:
Failed Unit
Established Member
I am surprised the flexipasses are not included in the smart ticketing trail on the e&g it would solve fraud on them instantly. No check and check out = large fine. Problem solved!
paul1609
Established Member
On southeastern some of the staff have personalised cutters not sure if thats official or not but Ive recently had a steam train and a kiwi!
CarterUSM
Established Member
Doesn't seem like such a bad idea, though they are found on other routes also. They are a great source of conflict nonetheless! It is one ticket i shouldn't have to mark whatsoever!
This system works BUT, in my experience, the countries which use it have a single journey mileage-based ticketing system (no price advantage in buying a return or 'splitting') and the ticket either does not allow break of journey or has a set time limit on how long it is valid for, again based on distance.
When Supertram started in Sheffield they tried (obviously having looked at tramway systems in Europe) to implement a self validating system with tickets bought at newsagents and the like but it totally confused passengers who had never encountered such a thing before and was soon withdrawn.
I would say nowadays that a smartcard (touch in/out) system is the way forward but it would need a drastic simplification of the UK rail fare structure if it was to work properly. We certainly don't want a nationwide repeat of the horror stories we hear about overcharging (or even incorrect prevention of travel) with Oyster.
Mintona
Established Member
They gave me a hole punch but it broke months back. We're not given stamps, only a hole punch, and they are so fragile you can't do more than about 20 tickets without them breaking in some way. So I find it much easier just to use a pen.
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I think eventually a smart card ticketing system will win out but it will take a while. South West Trains have got readers at all their stations so they can't cost that much. They are still on trial along London - Weymouth for week and monthly seasons. Does anyone know how that's going? I forsee the biggest change to ticketing that they bring being an increase in the number of TOCs offering conet tickets. In fact there is an example of a ticket where the user has to put a date on themselves at the minute.
Can someone tell me which issue of RAIL is being talked about here, and what page it is on? I'm looking at the Fare Dealer in RAIL 656 (the latest issue) and I can't see anything remotely matching this discussion.
It's in 655.
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Imagine doing York-Brum and didn't want to be ripped off, you'd have to have card readers at the platform, step off the train at Sheffield & Derby and touch the readers and get back on! It would save hassle at the ticket office, but create hassle at the splitting points. Not sure how it'd work with seasons! (The equivalent of an OEP perhaps?!).
Oh, and the maximum cash fare would be an interesting one. I think £749 may be a little too high!
Yes, using condition 19 (c) could be interesting - perhaps some kind of arrangement where you lean out of the window and touch in as you pass like the old mailbag grabbers?
Or, even better, something which automatically printed that.
Thinking about it, printing the next station the train stopped at would be even better.
Scotrail84
Established Member
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GGGGRRRRRRRRR these things are murder!
They are NOT ticket stampers, they are just an item of stationery! A hole means nothing to the hardened try-it-on brigade. (and I too have seen these "didcot" chippings fly off in all sorts of directions towards other seated punters. . . they'll have somebody's eye out soon!!).
Northern partly at fault for "converting" all of the SVRs they were responsible for, to SORs in the Fare Complication exercise.
Then ATOC reverse their original decision that Outward portions only valid on the day of issue to 5 days (due to business complaints) as a "temporary" measure. . . Some "temporary" measure.
The punters didnt take long to suss it & start trying to use their open returns as a month-long season ticket in both directions.:roll:
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
Here are four different styles of clipping a ticket by marking:
1) Unprofessional scribble - though a lot neater than most - tells absolutely nothing about the usage.
2) Ticket used on two different trains on the same route, having changed from one to the other. Very clear marking with both headcodes legible. Very professional looking and fully informative.
3) Date, but no headcode. Not very informative, but still very clear and professional.
4) Circular stamp - no date. Sort of half way house in terms of image and information, I think.
1) Unprofessional scribble - though a lot neater than most - tells absolutely nothing about the usage.
2) Ticket used on two different trains on the same route, having changed from one to the other. Very clear marking with both headcodes legible. Very professional looking and fully informative.
3) Date, but no headcode. Not very informative, but still very clear and professional.
4) Circular stamp - no date. Sort of half way house in terms of image and information, I think.
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Solent&Wessex
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The main problem with those you have shown is that 3 of the tickets are old style APTIS stock, which you could easily use stamps on. Sadly, the new thermal stock is very slippery, and it is very easy to rub off, smudge or remove the printing from one of the date stamps.
Personally I use an old BR number 5 hole punch, but with certain flows such as Leeds to Hull in the evening I will write "used 1K20 03/11" on the top just as an extra measure.
The evidence of a hole or such marking is normally enough to prevent further use. Bear in mind that the majority of the misuse to which we refer is by commuters on relatively short journeys, i.e. Liverpool to Manchester, Leeds to Manchester, Hull to Leeds etc. They are unlikely to break their journey anyway so even a hole punch of some sorts will mean that they will be unable to present their to ticket for re-use out of Leeds another day as it will be obvious to everyone that it has been used already. They cannot have broken their journey as they have only just got on at Leeds with a ticket that has already been stamped.
Another way, where ticket gates are in use, is the ticket swipe. Occassionally I have had people present the outward portion of Open Returns on a different date to that which it was issued. I swipe it through my machine which tells me it was put through the gates at Leeds at 0840 one morning. I ask if they have used it, they say no, I say "thats strange, it was put through the gates at Leeds at 0840, and its only 0750 now, and we have only just left stalybridge which doesn't have gates, and you got on there".
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