Rail Operations Group - 769s & 319s to be used on freight between West Mids and Central Belt

[edwin_m]

You could easily do close to vehicle to vehicle transfer at Edinburgh Waverley. Where there has also been a lot of work in the stores areas (quite possibly unrelated)

I also expect that the parcels will the transported by roll cage so vehicle access won't need to be onto the platform.

As far as I recall one of the two cab ramps at Waverley is still accessible to vehicles but bollarded off - I guess the bollards can be unlocked to allow authorised vehicles through, which might work at night when there are fewer people around. Getting the roll cages on and off the train will be intensive activity for a short period, especially at intermediate stops and any where they have to be wheeled some distance between rail and road vehicles or a temporary store, and they would probably need security guards to protect parcels of high-value goods in a public area. I assume the local distribution partner (whoever that is) will have to provide the people to do that.

 

[221129]

As far as I recall one of the two cab ramps at Waverley is still accessible to vehicles but bollarded off - I guess the bollards can be unlocked to allow authorised vehicles through, which might work at night when there are fewer people around. Getting the roll cages on and off the train will be intensive activity for a short period, especially at intermediate stops and any where they have to be wheeled some distance between rail and road vehicles or a temporary store, and they would probably need security guards to protect parcels of high-value goods in a public area. I assume the local distribution partner (whoever that is) will have to provide the people to do that.

Both ramps have access to the station at Waverley, The north ramp is used for all deliveries and overnight the bollards etc are removed for deliveries, with delivery and waste collection vehicles often parked on the main concourse. There is also vehicle access if required to Platforms 2 and 19 easily. In fact HGV access to right next to platform 19 is used daily for the swapping of Roll on roll off skips.

 

[Puppetfinger]

Forgive me going off on a tangent here, but could developments of this nature, if tied in with Royal Mail, see a possible consideration for Mail Rail to be used again? If only to link Liverpool Street and Mount Pleasant to start with, thereby getting the goods from railhead to delivery office without a vehicle, for onward delivery in London by a green means? Could also include Paddington later on if the service develops.

 

[jfowkes]

How are they coping with the lack of level access between train and platform, assuming they will be using passenger platforms?

It seems like a small thing, but the more I think about it the more it seems like a big thing. Presumably with roll cages they need ramps for each set of doors, either stored on the train or at each loading/unloading point. They might need quite shallow ramps, with rolls cages having a higher weight and higher CofG than (for example) wheelchairs).

That will require storage space somewhere, plus add an amount of time pre- and post- load/unload and also slow down the rate at which cages can be moved compared to level access.

 

[zwk500]

Forgive me going off on a tangent here, but could developments of this nature, if tied in with Royal Mail, see a possible consideration for Mail Rail to be used again? If only to link Liverpool Street and Mount Pleasant to start with, thereby getting the goods from railhead to delivery office without a vehicle, for onward delivery in London by a green means? Could also include Paddington later on if the service develops.

I doubt it. A van is far easier, and batteries/hydrogen vehicles would be perfectly plausible by the time services start getting near Central London Termini.

 

[InOban]

I'm sure I read a tweet from Orion/ROG that the destination would be Central Scotland, presumably therefore Mossend, so all discussion of the practicalities of Central or Waverley is irrelevant.

 

[zwk500]

I'm sure I read a tweet from Orion/ROG that the destination would be Central Scotland, presumably therefore Mossend, so all discussion of the practicalities of Central or Waverley is irrelevant.

The map on Orion's website (post #45) shows, very clearly, pickup/dropoff locations at Glasgow Central and Edinburgh Waverley, with a logistics terminal at Grangemouth.

 

[Mak1981]

There is still road access to higher number platforms 11-15 at Glasgow Central, maximum vehicle height would be 10 foot 6, plenty of open room at platform 11 for turning etc

 

[Grumpy]

I wonder if we're over-complicating this by suggesting the use of railway stations or the Railnet gold taps approach.
Surely all you need is a railway line with some adjacent hard standing on which you can park road vehicles. Simply roll wheeled cages over a simple bridging board arrangement. No need for high capital investment. The key thing is decent 24 hour access to the road network.

 

[zwk500]

I wonder if we're over-complicating this by suggesting the use of railway stations or the Railnet gold taps approach.
Surely all you need is a railway line with some adjacent hard standing on which you can park road vehicles. Simply roll wheeled cages over a simple bridging board arrangement. No need for high capital investment. The key thing is decent 24 hour access to the road network.

I'm not 100% convinced that would pass the Unions, or even the ORR, with the potential risk of the loading staff for falling. That approach would also require substantial co-ordination so that every parcel was loaded onto a waiting vehicle, which means much higher vehicle need and lower utilisation of each vehicle (unless you had enough traffic to plot a full run for each vehicle in between each train, which I doubt).

 

[Bald Rick]

Forgive me going off on a tangent here, but could developments of this nature, if tied in with Royal Mail, see a possible consideration for Mail Rail to be used again? If only to link Liverpool Street and Mount Pleasant to start with, thereby getting the goods from railhead to delivery office without a vehicle, for onward delivery in London by a green means? Could also include Paddington later on if the service develops.

Very unlikely. This is parcels in cages or palletised high value freight. It won’t fit on “Mail Rail”, which relied on sacks being manhandled.

I'm not 100% convinced that would pass the Unions, or even the ORR, with the potential risk of the loading staff for falling. That approach would also require substantial co-ordination so that every parcel was loaded onto a waiting vehicle, which means much higher vehicle need and lower utilisation of each vehicle (unless you had enough traffic to plot a full run for each vehicle in between each train, which I doubt).

I’m not sure the unions would have any say in the matter. The people doing the loading / unloading would most likely be from the parcel company, who are not noted for their unionisation.

However I agree that direct loading from train to van has risks, the largest of which would probably be the van backing into the train sufficiently to damage it.

 

[BRX]

The question is surely: How do you get your vehicles into the station to allow for onward distribution? I guess you don't need to get the vehicle into the station but getting them nearby and able to load will be tricky. How many people do you need to move the goods? They must have thought this through.

Personally i would unload at a distribution centre close to the city and truck everything in from there but that is just me.

If this can be made to work it's really a better model than everything being sent out from a city perimeter distribution centre. Assuming that the density of parcel destinations is greater towards the centre of the city (and who knows if that's a correct assumption especially in post pandemic times - but if it is) then it's much better to get a whole load of stuff right to the centre in a low impact way, and then distribute outwards from there. The alternative is a large number of small road vehicles fanning out from the perimeter distribution centre and every one of those having to make its way through residential districts to get at the more central destinations.
The delivery to a central station location must surely have the potential to cut out a lot of road miles through congested areas. And it also opens the possibility for a portion of those final legs to be done using cargo bikes and similar. Not an option from a distribution centre.

 

[mcmad]

The map on Orion's website (post #45) shows, very clearly, pickup/dropoff locations at Glasgow Central and Edinburgh Waverley, with a logistics terminal at Grangemouth.

but thats just an Orion/ROG wish list/fantasy, I'd agree that the existing parcel platform at Mossend would be more likely if ROG are willing to pay DB for the use of it.

 

[zwk500]

but thats just an Orion/ROG wish list/fantasy, I'd agree that the existing parcel platform at Mossend would be more likely if ROG are willing to pay DB for the use of it.

Why do you think they would operate from a different logistics terminal to the one they advertise? Companies don't tend to put things like that up on websites for a laugh.

 

[mcmad]

Why do you think they would operate from a different logistics terminal to the one they advertise? Companies don't tend to put things like that up on websites for a laugh.

what, like the autonomous delivery vehicles at each end?

 

[edwin_m]

what, like the autonomous delivery vehicles at each end?

These are already doing things like delivering pizzas in Milton Keynes. More a coolbox on wheels than a true AV I guess. But I struggle to see how the parcels market within a trundle of Central Station would fill an eight car train, so I fear much of it will be clogging up the city streets in vans.

 

[zwk500]

what, like the autonomous delivery vehicles at each end?

The autonomous delivery vehicles are eventual aspirations, but to put down an actual terminal name rather than 'central belt' or similar suggests a certain amount of commitment

 

[ExRes]

These are already doing things like delivering pizzas in Milton Keynes. More a coolbox on wheels than a true AV I guess. But I struggle to see how the parcels market within a trundle of Central Station would fill an eight car train, so I fear much of it will be clogging up the city streets in vans.

But are delivery vans not already clogging up city streets? the difference is that the loads the trains will be carrying won't be entering the cities by road

 

[edwin_m]

But are delivery vans not already clogging up city streets? the difference is that the loads the trains will be carrying won't be entering the cities by road

But if they use the city centre as a hub then all those vans are in the busiest part of the city, and most of them don't need to be because they are delivering/collecting in the suburbs. Use a suburban hub and most of them will stay on less congested roads and never need to visit the centre. That should still be within the range of electric vans.

As they talk about intermediate stops, it may be that they plan to do both. The suburban terminal would not only do out-of-centre collection and delivery, it could also consolidate deliveries for city centre shops and businesses.

 

[Bigman]

Are there any other potential such freight flows that could be considered to other UK cities? I am thinking that somewhere near Stourton at Leeds might be useful.

 

[anthony263]

They had a swansea to London route and a route from.plymouth

 

[kylemore]

but thats just an Orion/ROG wish list/fantasy, I'd agree that the existing parcel platform at Mossend would be more likely if ROG are willing to pay DB for the use of it.

Apparently on the basis of this fantasy they have very expensively converted rolling stock more suited to existing passenger stations. If the intention was simply to use existing freight terminals then surely there are cheaper rolling stock options such as containers or existing vans and loco haulage?

 

[edwin_m]

Apparently on the basis of this fantasy they have very expensively converted rolling stock more suited to existing passenger stations. If the intention was simply to use existing freight terminals then surely there are cheaper rolling stock options such as containers or existing vans and loco haulage?

Container and loco haulage only give them 75mph, run under wires only unless they have a second loco or buy a bi-mode, and would probably cost a lot more to operate. 325s, which are the same bodyshell as 319s, are loaded and unloaded at Royal Mail terminals where the platforms are about 1.1m to be level with the train floor, so the roll cages can roll straight on and off.

 

[oldman]

According to railfreight.com 'Their first planned route is between Birch Coppice in the English Midlands and Mossend, near Glasgow.'

It makes sense to start with something fairly straightforward before moving onto the more innovative stuff.

 

[ExRes]

I'm beginning to think that the moderators will very shortly move this thread into 'Speculative'

ROG have been working on this for quite some time and are now backed by Star Capital, a company with previous experience of railway investment, do people seriously think that Rail Operations (UK) Ltd are a bunch of fools desperately trying to throw their money away? they are the ones with the plans, the costings and the knowledge of any limitations they are facing and yet some forum members seem to think the plans are a 'fantasy' and that "existing vans and loco haulage" should be used, what existing vans? loco haulage also means the likelihood of two locos for many services as any rail terminal use means releasing the loco with another one reducing the chance of the service being profitable in any way

 

[kylemore]

I'm beginning to think that the moderators will very shortly move this thread into 'Speculative'

ROG have been working on this for quite some time and are now backed by Star Capital, a company with previous experience of railway investment, do people seriously think that Rail Operations (UK) Ltd are a bunch of fools desperately trying to throw their money away? they are the ones with the plans, the costings and the knowledge of any limitations they are facing and yet some forum members seem to think the plans are a 'fantasy' and that "existing vans and loco haulage" should be used, what existing vans? loco haulage also means the likelihood of two locos for many services as any rail terminal use means releasing the loco with another one reducing the chance of the service being profitable in any way

"existing vans"

I was thinking of cargowaggon type vehicles. I am not an expert however it appears to me that use of such vehicles has declined and that some may be available.

Quite happy to be informed by those who are experts and/or involved in the industry.

 

[ExRes]

Perhaps someone could put the link on here as I seem unable to

Todays online 'Rail' article titled "Three routes for Orion's logistics service this year"

Tentative plan for commercial services to begin in July with three routes likely to be a) West Midlands - Mossend, b) London Gateway to London Liverpool Street and c) West Midlands to South West

 

[221101 Voyager]

Perhaps someone could put the link on here as I seem unable to

Todays online 'Rail' article titled "Three routes for Orion's logistics service this year"

Tentative plan for commercial services to begin in July with three routes likely to be a) West Midlands - Mossend, b) London Gateway to London Liverpool Street and c) West Midlands to South West

Three routes for Orion's logistics service this year

Routes revealed by Orion for logistics services using modified former 100mph passenger trains

www.railmagazine.com

 

[david1212]

I'm wondering how well a 769 will cope shoving an attached 319 around even at lower speed. While just over 1000hp available so nominally 3 x that of an 08 there is only traction from two bogies / four axles. Other threads refer to issues and restrictions when 319's run in multiple with one set having two or four motors out.

 

[telstarbox]

Remember that non-Royal Mail couriers aren't wedded to the old "distribute overnight and deliver by breakfast" paradigm. In our street it's not unusual to see Hermes and DPD vans dropping off around Sunday teatime for example.