Rail operators forced to tell passengers how to get cheapest fare - Telegraph

[Metrailway]

From Telegraph:

Rail operators forced to tell passengers how to get cheapest fare

Rail companies have been told by ministers that they will now have to tell commuters and travellers that they could be making huge savings if they use a ticket office rather than a self-service machine

Train passengers will automatically be offered the cheapest tickets for their journeys, potentially saving hundreds on travel, after the Government intervened following a Daily Telegraph investigation into rip-off fares.

Rail operators have been told by ministers that they must tell commuters and travellers that they could make huge savings if they use a ticket office rather than a self-service machine.

The intervention comes after an investigation by this newspaper which found that self-service machines — which are used to purchase almost a quarter of all tickets sold annually — offer wildly different fares making some journeys £100 more expensive.

The disclosures prompted Claire Perry, the rail minister, to call an urgent summit of railway chiefs which led them to agree to the creation of the country’s first rail fare code of conduct.

From March, all self-service ticket machines will be required to tell customers if there is a potential cheaper fare available and direct them to a ticket office.

The code, which will be overseen by the Office of Rail Regulation, is designed to eliminate the inconsistencies between ticket offices and machines in stations.

(Read More)

 

[TUC]

Of course the story misses the point. Getting the cheapest fare has nothing inherently to do with using a ticket office. It's the limited range of tickets offered by some TVMs. It would be better in some cases to advise that the cheapest dares are available online.

 

[RJ]

Oh good - hopefully this will stop people buying SDRs for journeys within London when an Off Peak Day Travelcard is cheaper. That in turn should reduce the number of requests a humble Zone 5/6 ticket office clerk like me gets for refunds!

 

[Merseysider]

The cheapest fares don't come predominantly from using a ticket office - they come from asking on this forum

But it's about time that the differential in fares offered between a TVM and ticket office was acknowledged and addressed.

 

[causton]

Oh good - hopefully this will stop people buying SDRs for journeys within London when an Off Peak Day Travelcard is cheaper. That in turn should reduce the number of requests a humble Zone 5/6 ticket office clerk like me gets for refunds!

Indeed, I believe there should be a separate option on TVMs saying something like "Any Destination in London" prominently on the first screen, offering a travelcard, Zone U1/2/3/4/5/6etc singles, singles to named stations briefly describing the difference. A lot of people don't understand the difference!

 

[talldave]

Well that'll be interesting, Southern couldn't organise a **** up in a brewery by March, never mind modify a ticket machine, so 2015 should be an interesting year!

Agreed that the best source of knowledge is this forum and its amazingly knowledgeable contributors. A Happy New Year to all.

 

[TEW]

Hopefully TVM's will direct people trying to buy 3+ tickets in one transaction to the ticket office. It is incredibly annoying that TVMs no longer offer Groupsave. I do feel for people when they have spent crazy amounts of money on tickets for several people when they could have saved a third by going to the ticket office.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TVMs should sell all walk-up single, return, Rover and Ranger tickets from the station they are at, and possibly also remote issue (though I see the fraud reason why the latter may not be desirable). That they don't is sheer laziness.

Neil

 

[cuccir]

This will make TVMs much slower. For some routes there are Anytime, Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak Returns, not to mention PTE products, Advances, mixes of singles, rangers, etc. Even without splits, the machine will have to ascertain my travel plans carefully and with nuance regarding degrees of certainty to know which is the cheapest for me

 

[bunnahabhain]

Oh good - hopefully this will stop people buying SDRs for journeys within London when an Off Peak Day Travelcard is cheaper. That in turn should reduce the number of requests a humble Zone 5/6 ticket office clerk like me gets for refunds!

I get irritated when I see somebody buying an anytime single for a Sunday journey on the Robin Hood Line, the maximum fare is £3 so some are paying an extra £1.40 on top. Grrr.

 

[island]

Won't the TOCs just minimally comply by pasting notices on the TVMs saying "cheaper fares may apply on certain journeys [especially those not wholly on our network/returning the same day/if there are two of you travelling together/etc.]; please enquire at the ticket office."?

 

[yorkie]

What if the ticket office is closed?

What about Condition 3 - do we still need to buy a part fare ticket?

To whom can we report inevitable failures to comply?

What do we do if a TOC is threatening a penalty fare or prosecution if you don't use a machine?

 

[NSEFAN]

Won't the TOCs just minimally comply by pasting notices on the TVMs saying "cheaper fares may apply on certain journeys [especially those not wholly on our network/returning the same day/if there are two of you travelling together/etc.]; please enquire at the ticket office.

Probably. It would save having to pay someone to update the TVMs.

What if the ticket office is closed?

Then we do the same thing we do currently, buy the correct fare at the first opportunity, be it the ticket office at the destination or on-board staff.

 

[Aictos]

I see one tiny problem here, what if I go into a station and proceed to buy a ticket from the TVM which then advises me there is a cheaper ticket available from the ticket office which happens to be closed...

I agree the TVMs should suggest the cheapest tickets but I don't believe they should be directing people to the booking office especially as they can already be busy enough at the best of times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I see one tiny problem here, what if I go into a station and proceed to buy a ticket from the TVM which then advises me there is a cheaper ticket available from the ticket office which happens to be closed...

I agree the TVMs should suggest the cheapest tickets but I don't believe they should be directing people to the booking office especially as they can already be busy enough at the best of times.

I see no reason other than laziness why if the TVM knows about a fare it shouldn't sell it.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This will make TVMs much slower. For some routes there are Anytime, Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak Returns, not to mention PTE products, Advances, mixes of singles, rangers, etc. Even without splits, the machine will have to ascertain my travel plans carefully and with nuance regarding degrees of certainty to know which is the cheapest for me

Easiest way would be for TVMs to have two options - first "expert mode" in which you select your origin and destination and it shows you all walk-up fares in a list with a line about restrictions so you can choose if you know what you're doing, second being a "Trainline mode" or "Mixing Deck mode" in which you use it as a journey planner.

At larger stations you could have different machines for the two purposes just as you used to have a ticket office and travel centre, with the latter having longer waits but more time for advice.

DB has machines like that, they can be quite useful.

Neil

 

[pemma]

Well that'll be interesting, Southern couldn't organise a **** up in a brewery by March, never mind modify a ticket machine, so 2015 should be an interesting year!

Maybe they'll do a Northern - their TVMs didn't selling Evening Returns which had been an issue for a few years. The solution? They withdrew Evening Returns.

 

[bb21]

Maybe they'll do a Northern - their TVMs didn't selling Evening Returns which had been an issue for a few years. The solution? They withdrew Evening Returns.

That is a pretty misleading account of how things panned out.

The withdrawal of the Evening Returns has nothing to do with their inability to sell them at TVMs.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Oh good - hopefully this will stop people buying SDRs for journeys within London when an Off Peak Day Travelcard is cheaper. That in turn should reduce the number of requests a humble Zone 5/6 ticket office clerk like me gets for refunds!

I doubt it - don't the machines already sell Travelcards, but they just don't offer them by default when a destination within the zones is selected? I don't think this scenario is covered by the new Code of Practice.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Won't the TOCs just minimally comply by pasting notices on the TVMs saying "cheaper fares may apply on certain journeys [especially those not wholly on our network/returning the same day/if there are two of you travelling together/etc.]; please enquire at the ticket office."?

Yes, as I understand it, this is all that is required by the Code of Practice, and thus all that is likely to happen.

 

[pemma]

That is a pretty misleading account of how things panned out.

The withdrawal of the Evening Returns has nothing to do with their inability to sell them at TVMs.

According to TfGM the withdrawal of Evening Returns was not a condition of the Direct Award and something Northern chose to do of their own accord without consulting TfGM.

A couple of years back a Northern Rail manager stated they were looking at solutions to a range of issues with their TVMs including the inability to sell Evening Returns.

Of course having a half-price period just after the new evening peak period wouldn't have been sensible. However, complete withdrawal of Evening Returns wouldn't have been the only solution to that problem but that one solved the TVM problem while changing the times for which Evening Returns were valid wouldn't have done.

 

[justin1985]

One of the ticket machines at Dalston Junction has a button which let's you change the date up to 3 or 4 weeks into the future. The other machines don't have this button so maybe this is a new feature?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Reading the BBC website version of the story, all I can say is;

very clever PR stunt to deflect the media just before the annual fares increase

All that is promised immediately is a sign saying 'cheaper fares may be available'. They aren't actually going to offer you the cheapest fare, or say that your specific fare is cheaper elsewhere. And they certainly don't appear to be acknowledging and accepting split ticket or starting late / ending early opportunities. Indeed I suspect even offering Travelcards instead of a more expensive return is beyond their intentions. Unless someone has a copy of the draft code of practice I remain somewhat sceptical.

A bit like a sign outside Tesco saying some goods at this store may cheaper elsewhere, but we aren't going to tell you which ones or where, work it out for yourself but at least we told you.

 

[jon0844]

It's time TVM software is massively overhauled and all tickets that can be bought online (which is arguably more than even a ticket office as some staff will refuse to sell some tickets/discounts) are available from them.

Any potential fraudster can already use their smartphone to order any ticket on the web to collect within minutes, so why punish everyone else?

 

[Mike@Raileasy]

What if the ticket office is closed?

What about Condition 3 - do we still need to buy a part fare ticket?

To whom can we report inevitable failures to comply?

What do we do if a TOC is threatening a penalty fare or prosecution if you don't use a machine?

The ORR are saying they will be responsible for compliance.

 

[yorkie]

Then we do the same thing we do currently, buy the correct fare at the first opportunity, be it the ticket office at the destination or on-board staff.

Northern are fine with that but EMT and East Coast want people to buy part fare tickets and excess (excessing isn't always possible so a refund has to be arranged). It would be good if all operators could agree to abolish the requirement to buy a part fare ticket under Condition 3 however I can't see that happening.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A couple of years back a Northern Rail manager stated they were looking at solutions to a range of issues with their TVMs including the inability to sell Evening Returns.

What, such as loading the fares into the TVMs? It isn't hard.

Laziness, again.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Northern are fine with that but EMT and East Coast want people to buy part fare tickets and excess (excessing isn't always possible so a refund has to be arranged). It would be good if all operators could agree to abolish the requirement to buy a part fare ticket under Condition 3 however I can't see that happening.

Or we reintroduce the Permit to Travel. If the machine doesn't sell your fare, press the PERTIS button and insert a quid, perhaps selecting the type of fare you were wanting to buy that wasn't available to cut down on people buying a PERTIS then asking for a normal single on the train. (The point, of course, is that it proves you have come from an unstaffed station or one where the machine won't sell all fares).

But the real answer is *get the ticket machines selling all the walk-up fares*. They almost do. It's really not hard.

Condition 3 is silly because it creates admin which is handled very badly.

Neil

 

[bb21]

What, such as loading the fares into the TVMs? It isn't hard.

Laziness, again.

Neil

That I agree with. There is no reason why it could not have been resolved within a few days of the problem being reported to them. After all, Virgin machines do not seem to suffer from this problem.

But to suggest that their removal was the consequence of the attempt to resolve the issue surrounding the inability to issue them is wide of the mark.

 

[TUC]

I see one tiny problem here, what if I go into a station and proceed to buy a ticket from the TVM which then advises me there is a cheaper ticket available from the ticket office which happens to be closed...

I agree the TVMs should suggest the cheapest tickets but I don't believe they should be directing people to the booking office especially as they can already be busy enough at the best of times.

Where else could they direct people to aside from the ticket office?

I agree it is meaningless however to advise passengers that a cheaper ticket is available from the ticket office when that ticket office is closed. Surely it should advise passengers that cheaper tickets are available from the ticket office or can be purchased on the train if the ticket office is closed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What, such as loading the fares into the TVMs? It isn't hard.

Laziness, again.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But the real answer is *get the ticket machines selling all the walk-up fares*. They almost do. It's really not hard.

Is anyone aware of any technical reasons why all walk-up fares have not been loaded onto all TVMs because it is hard to see why it should be difficult?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That I agree with. There is no reason why it could not have been resolved within a few days of the problem being reported to them. After all, Virgin machines do not seem to suffer from this problem.

But to suggest that their removal was the consequence of the attempt to resolve the issue surrounding the inability to issue them is wide of the mark.

Indeed, they were very clearly removed because of the requirement to charge more in order to reduce subsidy. I never intended to imply that it had to do with the ticket machines.

Neil

 

[bb21]

Indeed, they were very clearly removed because of the requirement to charge more in order to reduce subsidy. I never intended to imply that it had to do with the ticket machines.

Neil

Oh, no. That comment was not in response to your post.

 

[sarahj]

From what I read of it, its not saying you can buy cheaper by going into the ticket office, but the machine will say this ticket is available as well and its cheaper, fancy it.

I do find it odd sometimes that ticket machine from a certain company I know, and know some who work for them , that the super off peak ticket option is sometimes a few screens in when you ask for a travelcard or ticket to the big smoke. After 10.30 at least, this should be option 2 at least, not next page.

Of course the fun would be if it said, going to london Vic in the rush hour, you could save this by, buying this ticket and this ticket. (just make sure your train stops at CLJ)

And then get rid of silly things like fare from Brighton to Lewes being 10p cheaper than from London Rd (BTN) to Lewes.:roll: (SDS)