Rail operators forced to tell passengers how to get cheapest fare - Telegraph

[Gathursty]

Let's just make sure we have every station loaded onto all TVMs first. I do bang the drum about Pye Corner and Energlyn and Churchill Park but since this fairly easy update hasn't been completed (apart from relevant TVMs in The Valleys), then I'm not going to hold my breath about a TVM showing me a 'cheapest ticket' for my journey. They might as well open up on screen www.railforums.co.uk and tell you to sign up for help for free (or not depending on TOC). :P

 

[Richard1960]

Are ticket office staff trained up fully enough to tell passengers?

Last year i went to the ticket office in Norwich and asked for a next day return ticket to Norwich from Harlow Town they quoted me £36.

Sounded a bit much i then went onto the concourse checked on my mobile bingo 2 advance singles £11.70 each.

Should have seen the look on their faces when i went back to the ticket office,and asked why they had not told me about the cheaper advances,and bingo they issued 2 advance singles for the next day.!

 

[WelshBluebird]

What the ToC's (or maybe it was ATOC) are saying annoyed me. Something along the lines of we are happy to do this so our passengers get the best deal possible. Umm ok so in that case why has nothing been done before and why are some of the more basic issues with TVMs being totally ignored (and that is before we go onto the many other reasons why they DO NOT care about the passenger getting the best deal).

It is nothing more than a PR job before the price increases.

 

[Richard1960]

What the ToC's (or maybe it was ATOC) are saying annoyed me. Something along the lines of we are happy to do this so our passengers get the best deal possible. Umm ok so in that case why has nothing been done before and why are some of the more basic issues with TVMs being totally ignored (and that is before we go onto the many other reasons why they DO NOT care about the passenger getting the best deal).

It is nothing more than a PR job before the price increases.

Looks to me like it i have now got into the habit of checking on my mobile phone before i go anywhere near a ticket office, so i can tell THEM the best deal.!hock:hock:

 

[bb21]

[/B]

Looks to me like it i have now got into the habit of checking on my mobile phone before i go anywhere near a ticket office, so i can tell THEM the best deal.!hock:hock:

Good idea.

 

[jon0844]

Some get upset if you try and tell them what you should be sold/pay.

 

[Merseysider]

Some get upset if you try and tell them what you should be sold/pay.

Or downright refuse to sell it.
It's kinda sad, but for journeys I'll definitely be making or that are even slightly out of the ordinary I always book online and collect, purely because it's easier than arguing a point with a stubborn member of staff.

 

[RJ]

Are ticket office staff trained up fully enough to tell passengers?

Last year i went to the ticket office in Norwich and asked for a next day return ticket to Norwich from Harlow Town they quoted me £36.

Sounded a bit much i then went onto the concourse checked on my mobile bingo 2 advance singles £11.70 each.

Should have seen the look on their faces when i went back to the ticket office,and asked why they had not told me about the cheaper advances,and bingo they issued 2 advance singles for the next day.!

It's down to individual initiative and attitude to customer service - in such a situation, the first thing I say is there may be a cheaper fare available if you're prepared to commit to specific trains. Some take me up on it, some don't but everybody should be given the opportunity. I go to that ticket office to buy Plusbus tickets every now and again and the staff there are really nice.

Subject to my limited knowledge of the ticketing system, I always aim to offer two singles if cheaper than a return, because that's what NRE does.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Where else could they direct people to aside from the ticket office?

I agree it is meaningless however to advise passengers that a cheaper ticket is available from the ticket office when that ticket office is closed. Surely it should advise passengers that cheaper tickets are available from the ticket office or can be purchased on the train if the ticket office is closed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Is anyone aware of any technical reasons why all walk-up fares have not been loaded onto all TVMs because it is hard to see why it should be difficult?

The only possible thing is if the TOC cheaper out and bought a TVM without much memory. However they must be online to retrieve TOD details so a link to a remote database should cover it.

 

[jon0844]

They have a PC inside don't they? So no TVM should be limited in what it can do? Maybe a processor upgrade to speed things up, and all of them being changed to capacitive screens (but that means outdoor ones will have problems), but that's about it.

They must all be upgradeable. If not, tough, stump up the cash to replace them. Being able to buy a ticket should be treated the same as the railway adhering to countless rules on safety. It shouldn't be optional.

 

[CockneySparrow]

The cheapest fares don't come predominantly from using a ticket office - they come from asking on this forum

But it's about time that the differential in fares offered between a TVM and ticket office was acknowledged and addressed.

More often than not its not different prices in the TVM to the ticket office, problem is the machines still have the anytime ticket on the front screen well after 9am weekdays as a popular ticket since so many people have purchased it over the last couple of hours (during morning rush hour) an idiot then comes to use the machine at 11am sees the town he wants to go isn't bothered about "anytime return" or doesn't understand it so just pays the over inflated price

Then at weekends you get more confused people using the machines where they have to choose between an anytime, off peak and super off peak with many think that the super off peak requires a railcard

 

[TUC]

Leaving aside Advance tickets, which are a different although legitimate issue in terms of passengers getting the cheapest fares, how much of this is really an issue outside of the London area? Yes, making sure that off-peak tickets are highlighted at times these are available is important, but how much of the rest of the issue is primarily about the multitude of options for tickets into London?

 

[Deerfold]

Leaving aside Advance tickets, which are a different although legitimate issue in terms of passengers getting the cheapest fares, how much of this is really an issue outside of the London area? Yes, making sure that off-peak tickets are highlighted at times these are available is important, but how much of the rest of the issue is primarily about the multitude of options for tickets into London?

There's other areas with lots of tickets.

I've not checked for a couple of weeks but Northern machines last time I looked would cheerfully sell you an ENTCS holder's ticket without explaining what it was or that you had to have a local ENTCS pass to use it. As it's usually the cheapest option presented it could cause people to be prosecuted or simply lose out on revenue.

 

[TUC]

There's other areas with lots of tickets.

I've not checked for a couple of weeks but Northern machines last time I looked would cheerfully sell you an ENTCS holder's ticket without explaining what it was or that you had to have a local ENTCS pass to use it. As it's usually the cheapest option presented it could cause people to be prosecuted or simply lose out on revenue.

But that's the opposite problem isn't it? It's not a case of a TVM failing to offer the cheapest ticket. It's a TVM offering the cheapest ticket without it explaining the conditions attached to it.

 

[pemma]

Leaving aside Advance tickets, which are a different although legitimate issue in terms of passengers getting the cheapest fares, how much of this is really an issue outside of the London area? Yes, making sure that off-peak tickets are highlighted at times these are available is important, but how much of the rest of the issue is primarily about the multitude of options for tickets into London?

TVMs at Chester have notices on them to tell people to not buy return tickets to Liverpool at off-peak times because a Merseyrail Day Saver is cheaper and is valid for the same journey.

You can also Off Peak Day Returns for journeys such as Edale to Northwich which are more expensive than the Wayfarer ticket which is valid for the same journey.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The main issue is with the "quick fares" screen, which lists "common tickets to popular destinations". Usually these are the anytime/peak versions of tickets, even if it off-peak. That catches a lot of people out.

The other issue is where TVMs apply the railcard minimum fare, even where the undiscounted ticket is below the minimum fare.

Both issues are simple to solve, but it will a) reduce toc revenue and b) cost money to implement software updates. Of course the greedy TOCs will do nothing.

 

[RJ]

Both issues are simple to solve, but it will a) reduce toc revenue and b) cost money to implement software updates. Of course the greedy TOCs will do nothing.

I'm never really convinced by this - I don't think TOCs are in the business of being unscrupulous in this manner. Presumably Off Peak tickets are offered in many cases to attract more people to use the trains at quiet times. Some of which would not pay the Anytime fare, or would pay once then make other arrangements for the future. I'd say there probably isn't any net benefit in all in people paying the wrong fare.

I think it's more to do with a lack of empathy for customers using TVMs. Those who decide how the machines should be programmed assume a certain level of deductive skills on the part of the customer, which many people may need a little help along with. Without a more intuitive interface, there will be difficulties in finding the correct ticket.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't think the machines are designed to deceive. I think they're ineptly designed, not maliciously.

But changes to the interface will cost money and reduce income. I don't see many TOC managers signing that off as giving good value for money.

 

[TUC]

Why would changes to the interface cost any significant amounts of money? It should just be a simple software update to offer different options.

 

[talltim]

It takes time (=money) to plan, develop and test the software updates

 

[LateThanNever]

Reading the BBC website version of the story, all I can say is;

very clever PR stunt to deflect the media just before the annual fares increase

All that is promised immediately is a sign saying 'cheaper fares may be available'. They aren't actually going to offer you the cheapest fare, or say that your specific fare is cheaper elsewhere. And they certainly don't appear to be acknowledging and accepting split ticket or starting late / ending early opportunities. Indeed I suspect even offering Travelcards instead of a more expensive return is beyond their intentions. Unless someone has a copy of the draft code of practice I remain somewhat sceptical.

A bit like a sign outside Tesco saying some goods at this store may cheaper elsewhere, but we aren't going to tell you which ones or where, work it out for yourself but at least we told you.

Perhaps - like Tesco - they'll say that today your ticket would have been cheaper at the ticket office and here's a voucher for the difference for next time!
It'd be a start!

 

[bb21]

Perhaps - like Tesco - they'll say that today your ticket would have been cheaper at the ticket office and here's a voucher for the difference for next time!
It'd be a start!

How's that going to work?

Take GroupSave as an example, I buy three tickets at a ticket that does not have GroupSave programmed in (which I believe is a problem reported by several forum members), how does it know that these three tickets were for people travelling together at all times, or that we would be making our own separate journeys somewhere down the line?

I just don't see that working, as the machine cannot tell the exact travel needs of the passengers, unlike a ticket office.

The solution, of course, is to have open ticket offices. A machine is simply no substitute for a human being.

 

[jon0844]

It takes time (=money) to plan, develop and test the software updates

Yes, but nobody seems to have any desire to do it. The software is mostly unchanged in ten years.

We need someone to force the industry to change, and ideally ATOC takes the responsibility so everything is standardised.

 

[yorkie]

I don't think the machines are designed to deceive. I think they're ineptly designed, not maliciously.

I agree. But we need a more level playing field. So how about some strict liability criminal legislation that works the other way too? That'd concentrate some minds, but it won't happen because the Government is all talk with very fluffy/woolly/vague guidelines that will no doubt be flouted, and no real action on this matter.

 

[Starmill]

Are some ticket types invisible to TVMs? There is a Super Off-Peak Day Return between Nottingham and Manchester, but I can't ever get it on a TVM in Manchester nor at Nottingham. I've looked on Southern / GX branded TVMs and also London Overground, GTR and East Coast TVMs which will issue tickets from other stations and none of them can find this fare.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The solution, of course, is to have open ticket offices. A machine is simply no substitute for a human being.

Ticket offices being open when they're supposed to be open, never mind from first train to last train, is a pipe dream round these parts.

I've lived here ten months and I'm yet to see Apsley station be staffed according to the TSA agreement for even one single day. Apparently it's a "staff shortage", which seems rather careless on the part of London Midland after the best part of a year.

It's a shame as the ticket office clerk at Apsley is one of the most helpful people you could hope to meet on the railways. It's just a shame that they can't be chewed hiring some cover for her...

 

[tony_mac]

Why would changes to the interface cost any significant amounts of money? It should just be a simple software update to offer different options.

I guess because that's how the contract with the ticket machine suppliers have been set up.

According to Northern Rail, the reason they don't offer Super-off-peak tickets on their machines is that they don't have the budget to pay for it.

I guess now they will at least have to find enough money to put up a notice.
(if they will do so without prompting is another matter....)

 

[infobleep]

Was surprised to see a QR code on the TVM at Guildford the other day. It's a South West Trains TVM. Don't remember seeing a QR code before. It appears when you select your ticket to book.

I scanned it in on my mobile and it took me to a non mobile friendly page about tickets on National Rail Enquiries Web Site. It would be even better if it took you to the page with the exact restriction code for the ticket your buying, along with a mobile friendly version of the page. Still it's a start. There wasn't a queue behind me which meant I didn't annoy anyone by doing this.

Wonder if they could use that as a way of directing people to online booking sites. Of course not all stations are listed online for ticket collection points and all sites state you need to give it 2 hours before collection, regardless of whether you actually do for that particular site your booking from.

 

[jon0844]

Another example of not doing basic usability testing. The URL is obscured FFS!

Sure, it's pretty obvious what it is - but come on! I've had to read loads of style guides for print and digital design and the user interface should have strict rules to prevent this sort of thing.

 

[TUC]

Why would changes to the interface cost any significant amounts of money? It should just be a simple software update to offer different options.

I guess because that's how the contract with the ticket machine suppliers have been set up.

According to Northern Rail, the reason they don't offer Super-off-peak tickets on their machines is that they don't have the budget to pay for it.

I guess now they will at least have to find enough money to put up a notice.
(if they will do so without prompting is another matter....)

That does not make any sense. Adding super off -peak tickets is just adding a category of ticket to offer. Still, given its Northern Rail, you can rely on them to be incompetent with even the simplest things. Was there ever a rail company that more needed to be put out of its misery as quickly as possible.