Rail passengers to face airport-style security checks?

[colchesterken]

I do not see how any of these ideas could work. It is like the talk of boarders in Europe
In the summer I went to the south of France by train Luggage scanned at St Pancras then onto the TGV at Paris no checks 20 coach double deck train packed out (mid summer Sat morning ) I stopped at small country stations Sete ,Montpellier,Agde could not fit customs there
Also the road system the amount of traffic on the Route from France to Belgium and into Netherlands and Germany the whole of Europe would seize up if they stopped all traffic
Lets face it in the end we have to take a chance and hope for the best

 

[hulabaloo]

To be honest, I have quite a lot of faith in our intelligence services in the UK. Who knows how many atrocities have been averted in this country that we'll never get to hear about?

As someone stated earlier, carrying on as normal is the best course of action.

 

[thenorthern]

From what I gather there is talk of security checks for cross border trains as of course on the continent there are none because of Schengen.

In the United Kingdom though the Channel Tunnel of course has border and security checks while the other railway line which crosses a border is at Newry where I don't think that Middle East related terrorism is the biggest threat.

 

[Hornet]

From what I gather there is talk of security checks for cross border trains as of course on the continent there are none because of Schengen.

In the United Kingdom though the Channel Tunnel of course has border and security checks while the other railway line which crosses a border is at Newry where I don't think that Middle East related terrorism is the biggest threat.

"New study says Ireland has the second highest per capita jihadist rate"

http://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-capita-study-jihadists-syria-islam-1655655-Sep2014/

Train bombings are old news over here. News story from January 1980.

http://www.castlebar.ie/board/2004/apr/83970.htm

"There were about 30 passengers on board the train, which had just started away from Dunmurry station. Police said that when the blast incendiary, consisting of explosives and petrol, went off, a huge ball of flame enveloped the train. Panic-stricken passengers struggled from the blazing carriages and scrambled their way up the steep bank.

Firemen who tackled the blaze found what rail chief Mr. Roy Beattie described as “three heaps of ashes”- the bodies of the three who died. People living nearby said they heard a sizzling noise rather than any loud explosion and then saw “a great glowing ember” as the train burst into flames."

Plenty the IRA have been teaching jihadists over the years. By far the most sophisticated and advanced Terrorist group in Europe, if not the World.

 

[thenorthern]

Plenty the IRA have been teaching jihadists over the years. By far the most sophisticated and advanced Terrorist group in Europe, if not the World.

Although it was a lot easier to negotiate with the IRA and they did at least warn us most of the time before an attack.

By the looks of it though on the continent border checks between EU countries may be re-introduced soon although because of concerns about the the current Asylum Crisis and not Security reasons.

I would not want to be a European Interior Minister (Home Secretary) at the moment as you have to tread very carefully and watch everything you say.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well (and not that is really matters) but there was one on a cross country train near Lancaster some years ago where staff locked a knife armed passenger in a carriage and evacuated the ready of the passengers after he threatened someone. Havnt got time to look for the news link at the moment but will look later.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1519648/Man-stabbed-to-death-on-holiday-train.html

Link didn't take as long to find as I thought. 2006. Basically says what I stated above for those who can't open it. Knife armed attacker murdered someone by stabbing them in the stomach on a cross country IC train.

Had a read of that one and while it doesn't explicitly say so it reads very much like a premeditated attack that, were knives checked for on trains, would probably have occurred off the train.

As you can't cause the kind of harm with a train as you can with an airliner, my view would be that the rules on weapons (e.g. knives) on trains should be the same as on the street.

 

[Hornet]

Although it was a lot easier to negotiate with the IRA and they did at least warn us most of the time before an attack.

The IRA never entered into any negotiations. Sinn Fein did, which was the Political Wing of the IRA, or so it seemed, as the leader of Sinn Fein claims to this day that he was never in the IRA. If this is true, and Adams constantly asserts this to be the case, he did not negotiate on behalf of the IRA but Sinn Fein. It was in the IRA's interest not to be involved in any Political negotiations. The IRA is primed for a return to violence, and only needs a total breakdown of the Stormont Assembly to put them on a war footing.

As for warnings, many were vague, and were deliberately made to draw security forces into an area to cause maximum carnage. Worth remembering that most of those killed by the IRA were Catholic. Today the Catholic communities in West Belfast, parts of Derry and some communities in Dublin live under a mafia like regime that is run by the IRA. The influence on Irish politics of the IRA can be felt today, both in the North and here in the South. Appeasement seems to be Politically expedient.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I don't think there's any reason for us to get ourselves into a lather over this. It's not true. How do I know? It's in the "Daily Mail" and the opening sentence cites "new EU rules" as the reason for it happening. Of course it's made up!


(Famous last words! )

Or in my case "another link from that rag called The Guardian, what does it guard exactly?"

 

[thenorthern]

Although not for concerns about Terror attacks the main station in Budapest has been closed today because of the amount of irregular migrants and asylum seekers attempting to reach Germany and Austria. In comparable terms this would be like closing London Waterloo all day which would be a nightmare for everyone.

Although the United Kingdom is not part of Schengen so it doesn't directly affect us but I can see the agreement ending soon. I would be interested to see how Eurostar passengers traveling to Brussels would be affected if the Schengen agreement was dissolved as it could mean passengers having their passports checked twice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although the United Kingdom is not part of Schengen so it doesn't directly affect us but I can see the agreement ending soon.

Yes, I'm certainly starting to wonder if the outcome of this (and the refugee issues) might not actually be airport-style security on stations, but more significantly might be the dismantling of Schengen.

 

[Hornet]

Yes, I'm certainly starting to wonder if the outcome of this (and the refugee issues) might not actually be airport-style security on stations, but more significantly might be the dismantling of Schengen.

The German Interior Minister has already hinted at this:-

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34016448

With the pressures on the Hungarian borders and Austria already tightening up vehicle checks, I would imagine it will only be a matter of time.

Denmark has also tightened up on Border checks:-

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/30/denmark-border-controls-schengen-immigration-smuggling

It's always good to see the European Interior Ministers treat this problem with the upmost expediency. Here is a news story from 2011.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/12/europe-to-end-passport-free-travel

 

[hulabaloo]

Yes, I'm certainly starting to wonder if the outcome of this (and the refugee issues) might not actually be airport-style security on stations, but more significantly might be the dismantling of Schengen.

Could this possibly be a silver lining for Britain if all major European stations have security and passport control?

I wonder if it means that operators will be able to run trains to and from them directly, and not have the current situation of passengers coming back from Marseille for instance having to disembark at Lille for further checks?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could this possibly be a silver lining for Britain if all major European stations have security and passport control?

I'd think it more likely that the practice of on-board checks by way of stopping at the stations either side of the border would return.

 

[hulabaloo]

Ah, that would just hand short-haul European travel back to airlines. I hope that doesn't happen.

 

[WestCoast]

I'd think it more likely that the practice of on-board checks by way of stopping at the stations either side of the border would return.

ID Checks can be done on the move, I also believe that due to Schengen checks can take place a certain number of kms from the border - "personenkontrolle" (control of persons) it's called in Germany. Not a concept familiar outside the Schengen Zone, especially not the UK where many carry no official ID.

With Budapest East in such a mess, I can definitely see a ramping up of checks across Central Europe.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

ID Checks can be done on the move, I also believe that due to Schengen checks can take place a certain number of kms from the border - "personenkontrolle" (control of persons) it's called in Germany. Not a concept familiar outside the Schengen Zone, especially not the UK where many carry no official ID.

With Budapest East in such a mess, I can definitely see a ramping up of checks across Central Europe.

ID checks can be done on the move but baggage screening can't

 

[Bletchleyite]

ID checks can be done on the move but baggage screening can't

Random baggage checks (actual searches, not X-ray) can, which is one suggestion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ID Checks can be done on the move, I also believe that due to Schengen checks can take place a certain number of kms from the border - "personenkontrolle" (control of persons) it's called in Germany. Not a concept familiar outside the Schengen Zone, especially not the UK where many carry no official ID.

Indeed they can, though in order not to waste staff it was usually done on the move between the two border stations (at which the locomotive was also traditionally changed, not any more of course) rather than having them travel long distances.

Outside Europe it's often "get off, border control, get back on", e.g. Thailand-Malaysia.

I once got checked on an IR from Freilassing to Muenchen (they thought I'd come from Austria, it was while the Joerg Haider controversy was going on). I confused them by showing my residency permit, I tended not to carry my passport when not travelling out of Germany. They accepted it, fortunately, even though it seemed it was the first time they'd seen one.

 

[thenorthern]

Random baggage checks (actual searches, not X-ray) can, which is one suggestion.

When Nottingham was having a problem with Gun related crime between 2000 and 2007 I know they did a lot of airport style baggage checks on passengers entering Nottingham Station. I haven't seen any at Nottingham though for years.

The problem is when you are checking for bombs and weapons at stations or anywhere else you kind of need an armed police officer there on hand because even if its only bladed items that someone is carrying I don't think many police officer would want to deal with a man carrying a machete. When they were checking people at Nottingham though I know Nottinghamshire police was routinely arming officers some patrols so getting armed officers at the stations was easier than normal.

 

[misterredmist]

In view of the fact that the offender on the 'dam - Paris train was already known to security and intelligence services, as has occurred in so many previous terrorism cases , until the powers that be find a way of actually shutting these kind of people down properly, then , in a free society like ours, we're going to experience a lot more of this sh*t over the coming years....

 

[najaB]

In view of the fact that the offender on the 'dam - Paris train was already known to security and intelligence services...

There are quite literally thousands of people known to the security and intelligence services, 99% of whom will never carry out a terrorist act.

 

[island]

It's a bad idea all round. It won't prevent terrorist incidents, it will inconvenience travellers and lead to increased fares for no benefit whatsoever.

Correct. Security theatre is all it is, if it even happens at all.

Love to know how you would scan people at a small Intercity station

eg Morpeth, Alnmouth, Retford. :roll:

Quite. Or Dunbar, Kirkcaldy, Leuchars, Penzance, Kingussie, Port Talbot Parkway, etc. etc.

ID Checks can be done on the move, I also believe that due to Schengen checks can take place a certain number of kms from the border - "personenkontrolle" (control of persons) it's called in Germany. Not a concept familiar outside the Schengen Zone, especially not the UK where many carry no official ID.

The UK is probably – I have no actual evidence or hard knowledge of this, mind – in a minority of countries in that you are not de jure or de facto required to carry ID with you whenever in public. France and Germany, to give just two examples, have such a de facto requirement in that the police are entitled to detain you until they are satisfied as to your identity if you don't produce valid ID on request.

 

[HSTEd]

In the EU it is pretty much just the UK and Ireland as far as I know that do not require you to carry identity papers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the EU it is pretty much just the UK and Ireland as far as I know that do not require you to carry identity papers.

In Germany you aren't required to carry them - there is no penalty for not doing so in and of itself (there is in the Netherlands, for example) - but you will find it rather inconvenient if you have to accompany the police to the station to have your identity verified if you can't produce them if they have cause to ask.

 

[najaB]

The UK is probably – I have no actual evidence or hard knowledge of this, mind – in a minority of countries in that you are not de jure or de facto required to carry ID with you whenever in public. France and Germany, to give just two examples, have such a de facto requirement in that the police are entitled to detain you until they are satisfied as to your identity if you don't produce valid ID on request.

Having grown up in a country that has mandatory ID cards (from age 16) upwards, I can say that the benefits outweigh any perceived loss of civil liberties. However I know this isn't a popular view in the UK.

Personally I think that there should be universal DNA sampling at birth. There would be no such thing as an unidentified body ever again, and no stigma associated with being on "the list". Crime investigation would be simplified - there are way too many crimes where there is no match on the database for quality samples taken at the crime scene.

I'm donning my flame-resistant suit in anticipation of the replies.

 

[Senex]

Having grown up in a country that has mandatory ID cards (from age 16) upwards, I can say that the benefits outweigh any perceived loss of civil liberties. However I know this isn't a popular view in the UK.

Personally I think that there should be universal DNA sampling at birth. There would be no such thing as an unidentified body ever again, and no stigma associated with being on "the list". Crime investigation would be simplified - there are way too many crimes where there is no match on the database for quality samples taken at the crime scene.

I'm donning my flame-resistant suit in anticipation of the replies.

Far from wanting to turn you to ashes, I find myself strongly in agreement with both the points you make.

 

[island]

In Germany you aren't required to carry them - there is no penalty for not doing so in and of itself (there is in the Netherlands, for example) - but you will find it rather inconvenient if you have to accompany the police to the station to have your identity verified if you can't produce them if they have cause to ask.

As mentioned above, you therefore de facto have to carry ID papers.

 

[thenorthern]

In the EU it is pretty much just the UK and Ireland as far as I know that do not require you to carry identity papers.

In Germany you aren't required to carry them - there is no penalty for not doing so in and of itself (there is in the Netherlands, for example) - but you will find it rather inconvenient if you have to accompany the police to the station to have your identity verified if you can't produce them if they have cause to ask.

Most European countries have an ID card system but Cameron and Clegg scrapped ours partly for civil liberties reasons I think.

Most British people though carry their Drivers Licence which is an acceptable form of identification although its not mandatory even to drive a car and thus not everybody does.

Problem is its inconceivable for everyone to have their ID cards checked when getting on a train in this country and knowing someone's identification won't prevent a terror attack.

 

[johnnychips]

Most British people though carry their Drivers Licence which is an acceptable form of identification although its not mandatory even to drive a car and thus not everybody does.

Are you under 25 and look young ?

Most people I know either keep it in the car (so no use on trains) or stuffed in a drawer.

 

[thenorthern]

Are you under 25 and look young ?

Most people I know either keep it in the car (so no use on trains) or stuffed in a drawer.

Yes and Yes.

Depends on the person, with the old style drivers licence most people of course didn't carry it around with them but with the photocard most people I know keep it in their wallet or purse. In any case though its not mandatory.

 

[Jonny]

Most European countries have an ID card system but Cameron and Clegg scrapped ours partly for civil liberties reasons I think.

Most British people though carry their Drivers Licence which is an acceptable form of identification although its not mandatory even to drive a car and thus not everybody does.

Problem is its inconceivable for everyone to have their ID cards checked when getting on a train in this country and knowing someone's identification won't prevent a terror attack.

I think it was partly logistical reasons as well - bloated, bogged down with expensive contractors (most people would rightly call it waste, but to New Labour it was so-called ^investment^), intrusive (on an ongoing basis), etc... However, there were legitimate civil liberties concerns as well.

Am I the only one old enough to have noticed New Labour's reckless disregard for civil liberties?