Rail Replacement buses and tickets

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A1

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If a RRB is operating in a penalty fare area, is that enforceable on a bus? Technically you could walk onto the bus and off the bus and never see a Penalty Fare Zone sign.

As an aside, I rarely see people buy tickets for a RRB, and have only been checked once for tickets when boarding by RP (Greater Anglia)
 
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Mag_seven

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Don't the normal "Conditions of Carriage" apply for RBB's - i.e. you must have a valid ticket?
 

najaB

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Using my phone at the moment so can't check, but don't they penalty fares rules specifically use the word 'train' and 'station'? Would they be enforceable on a bus?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
 

JonathanH

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On what grounds should penalty fares not be enforcable on a rail replacement bus? Why do you need to see a penalty fare sign to be charged a penalty fare - as the person writes above you have to buy a ticket to travel.

It defeats me as to why train operators don't send out their penalty fare teams to 'sting' replacement buses.
 

clagmonster

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Don't the normal "Conditions of Carriage" apply for RBB's - i.e. you must have a valid ticket?
National Conditions of Carriage apply as do byelaws, so you must have a valid ticket if boarding at a staffed station, I agree. However, the penalty fare rules are additional to the aforementioned. Clause 4.1 of the penalty fare rules states:
"These warning notices must be in line with rule 4.3,
and must be displayed so that at least one notice can be clearly
seen by any passenger joining any penalty fares train or
changing onto a penalty fares train from any other train"
https://www.ircas.co.uk/docs/SRA - Penalty Fare Rules 2002.pdf

Thus I would say that no penalty fare should be charged if no sign is visible for passengers boarding a replacement bus.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Using my phone at the moment so can't check, but don't they penalty fares rules specifically use the word 'train' and 'station'? Would they be enforceable on a bus?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
Section 2 of the Penalty Fare Rules is titled 'Definitions'. It does not seem to include a definition of a train, but defines:
"‘Penalty fares train’ means a train for which penalty fares
may be charged, in line with an approved penalty fares
scheme and with these rules, to passengers without a valid
ticket who have boarded at a penalty fares station."
https://www.ircas.co.uk/docs/SRA - Penalty Fare Rules 2002.pdf

I don't see that a replacement bus is covered by this definition. The byelaws do define a train though:

train
” means any item of rolling stock and includes any carriage, wagon or locomotive; "
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf
This also wouldn't seem to cover replacement buses.

I don't know the position with the RoRA.
 

JonathanH

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How difficult would it be to put a simple note in the windows of the bus (like TfL do on underground replacement buses) that you must have a valid ticket (and you are liable to a penalty fare if you don't).
 

najaB

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How difficult would it be to put a simple note in the windows of the bus (like TfL do on underground replacement buses) that you must have a valid ticket (and you are liable to a penalty fare if you don't).
Not very and then, arguably, the PF would be valid.
 

WelshBluebird

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Wonder what the situation is where the RRB stop is a fair distance from the actual station? I guess technically you should still have a ticket, but that does strike me as pretty unfair!
 

JaJaWa

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How difficult would it be to put a simple note in the windows of the bus (like TfL do on underground replacement buses) that you must have a valid ticket (and you are liable to a penalty fare if you don't).

Aren't TfL's actually free though as they tell you not to touch the Oyster readers?
 

JonathanH

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Aren't TfL's actually free though as they tell you not to touch the Oyster readers?

No, you are meant to touch in Oyster cards and Contactless cards at the station before you board. There is a clear notice to this effect at the bottom of the route diagram shown in the nearside window of the bus.

I agree that you are not meant to touch the reader on the bus.
 

jumble

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This contradicts what was advised on a precious thread in 2013
The advise that it is not necessary to touch in at stations came from Mojo


Quote:
Originally Posted by jumble View Post
Whats interesting is that I noticed for the first time recently on RR busses on the Met and Piccadilly that the route maps and at Uxbridge station threaten a £80 pound PF if you don't have a ticket.
These signs have been on LU Rail Replacement Buses since early last year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jumble View Post
However are the public really expected on a trip from say Ickenham to Rayners lane to walk to the stations from the main road where the bus stops are which would be a good 5 minutes each way ? ie adding 20 minutes to the already lengthened trip even for the fittest person


No; you are not expected to touch in at stations. LU Revenue Control Inspectors sometimes inspect tickets and Oyster cards of customers as they board and alight from buses to ensure that they are loaded with adequate credit. This is a small step at present but many rail replacement services have had behaviour issues over the last 4 or so years and there is a concern of revenue loss to standard TfL services.
__________________




No, you are meant to touch in Oyster cards and Contactless cards at the station before you board. There is a clear notice to this effect at the bottom of the route diagram shown in the nearside window of the bus.

I agree that you are not meant to touch the reader on the bus.
 

paddington

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I don't know what the official TfL position is or was, but I have been told by TfL station staff that the buses are free (and prevented from entering the station so I couldn't have touched in even if I wanted to, though I was able to access the Oyster machine to top up).

Once I asked one of the TfL 'minders' at the replacement bus stop who said "don't worry about a ticket". This was a few years ago though I can't remember where.
 

RJ

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No, you are meant to touch in Oyster cards and Contactless cards at the station before you board. There is a clear notice to this effect at the bottom of the route diagram shown in the nearside window of the bus.

I agree that you are not meant to touch the reader on the bus.

This is the "official" policy and yes, it is advertised on the stickers in the bus windows. However, it is often not enforced and many stations are off limits to the public during closures, so the validators are inaccessible.

I was driving Tower Hill to Barking last Sunday and many locals were using it as a free express service to get to Stratford. The 25s were actually faster - they were straight in and out of bus stops whilst the RRBs were getting hammered, leading to much longer dwell times. As the 25's drivers spend their lives aggressively fighting to get into the flow of traffic, overtaking them at bus stops is often a futile exercise. The second their indicator goes on or you see the driver look in their offside mirror, you give way to them :lol:
 
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Trackman

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On TfL RRB I've never had a ticket check (yet)
In the Oyster area with SE trains, my ticket has been checked by the driver (or just shown my contactless card).
Northern trains and FTPE are dead mustard on this score, proper RP guys - I've seen them stop loads from boarding for a free ride.
Going back to contactless issue, if it's a RRB journey to another station and not a terminus, the official tap in before boarding a bus rule would mean you tap out at the destination station. I wonder if the gates would open? Even if you validated it, surely it's bound to cause confusion.
 

sciisfun

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all GWR RRB, at least all the ones I've been on have had a member of staff checking everyone's tickets, and selling them to those who walk up, to save them running to the station. I don't know about boarding from unmanned stations mind
 

les.

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I've had to use rail replacement buses many a time and not once have I ever been asked to show my ticket.

There would have been nothing stopping anyone getting on the bus and going from A to B without a ticket.
 

tsr

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A few years back pre-GTR, engineering blockades often saw quite major revenue exercises at the larger Southern stations. It wasn't so much to issue PFs, more to ensure that everybody simply was given, and used, an opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding a bus.

You do get them quite a bit more on connecting amended train services now, but sometimes rather less at the bus stops themselves. Hey ho!
 
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