Rail Review

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by Jorge Da Silva, 4 Sep 2018.

  1. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    Except I doubt John Lewis will be paying one this year, based on their first 6 months.
     
  2. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

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    My fingers or the autocorrect, sorry.
    What with Aviva and Areva, life's too complicated!
     
  3. SamYeager

    SamYeager Member

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    Leaving aside some people's imaginations of how great BR was ( I still remember being stuck on a failed London-Manchester train for three hours back in the late 60s) what changes do people realistically think will come out of this review?
     
  4. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Member

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    We could see move decentralisation and more control of services to TfN and TfL.
     
  5. HH

    HH Established Member

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    More decentralisation is currently being seen as a good thing. And so the wheel turns...
     
  6. HowardGWR

    HowardGWR Established Member

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    I just thought it was Bristolian for Arriva.
     
  7. 317 forever

    317 forever Member

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    Just a thought. If everything serving Scotland or Wales were devolved to the Scottish government and Welsh assembly to join ScotRail and Wales & Borders respectively, and everything serving London were devolved to the Mayor and added to London Overground, how much rail would remain in central government control?
     
  8. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

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    Chris Grayling has announced the names of the challenge panel to work with Keith Williams on the Rail Review, and its terms of reference:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/rail-review
    Some of these will be well known on the railway, others not.
    Dick Fearn is a long-time rail manager in the UK and Ireland.
    Tom Harris was a (Labour) junior Transport Minister who seemed to know his brief.
    This was in the 2 years immediately preceding Andrew Adonis' appointment, just after the Eddington Report was produced, and also just after the abolition of the SRA.

    Terms of reference:
    Apart from the list of things it will not review, I don't believe fares come into their purlieu either.
     
  9. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Member

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    It sounds like major changes are on the way and its good GTR has improved since the timetable problems under new leadership

    https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/rail-review

     
    Last edited: 11 Oct 2018
  10. quantinghome

    quantinghome Member

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    I don't imagine BR being great either. But neither do I imagine the current setup as being noticeably better, even after all the taxpayers' money thrown at it. If BR had continued the way it was going from the early 90s, but given the same amount of public money as our 'privatised' network things would be significantly better than they are now.
     
  11. quantinghome

    quantinghome Member

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    I can't believe the ideological blinkers Grayling has. No matter what happens it's Public bad, Private good.
     
  12. deltic

    deltic Established Member

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    Even Solomon would have been unable to answer some of the challenges this review has been given

    • commercial models for the provision of rail services that prioritise the interests of passengers and taxpayers
    • a system that is financially sustainable and able to address long-term cost pressures
    • a railway that is able to offer good value fares for passengers, while keeping costs down for taxpayers
    • improved industrial relations, to reduce disruption and improve reliability for passengers
     
  13. keith1879

    keith1879 Member

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    You can attempt (and fail) to prove anything with anecdotes such as this. When Virgin took over the WCML their performance went to bits to the extent that I started getting a train an hour before the one I wanted just in case. I also seem to remember that soon after the Pendolinos were introduced one failed somewhere near Cheadle Hulme and was stuck for about 7 hours .... but I can't find any proof of that to be fair. Does it prove that BR was better? No - but much of the criticism of BR was,is and always will be totally biased and generally ignored the lack of resources that they were given in comparison to the money that is doled out today in the annual grant to Network rail.
     
  14. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    And yet VTWC has evolved into a generally fairly competent operation, with the exception of matters relating to ticket validity at the Euston barriers.
     
  15. keith1879

    keith1879 Member

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    Never said they hadn't!!! (Although I dislike the Virgin group as a whole for reasons which have no place on this forum).
     
  16. SamYeager

    SamYeager Member

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    I was merely pointing out that BR was not the paragon of excellence that some posters have portrayed in this and other threads. Just like the existing TOCs they had equipment failures, process failures and customer service failures. However the TOCs is what we have now and frankly that's unlikely to change too much. At most I could see rail provison moving closer to the situation in Scotland with a limited number of TOCs compared to the current numbers.
     
  17. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Member

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    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/...-got-a-real-rail-service-choice-a3991106.html
    What does everyone think? Isn’t direct competition really hard to do currently due to the rules by the Office of Rail and Road’s Non-Primary Abstractive
     
    Last edited: 17 Nov 2018
  18. Surreytraveller

    Surreytraveller Member

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    Someone else coming from outside the industry to screw it up just a little bit more
     
  19. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Member

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    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46476431
    Nationalisation has not been ruled out. Grayling must be furious! Any thoughts?
     
  20. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

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    If nationalisation is ruled out at this point, critics of the final report can say "ah, but they weren't allowed to consider nationalisation as an option"! Whereas if it's still on the table, the eventual report can be used to make a case against nationalisation (assuming that the report favours any other approach).
     
  21. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Presumably also things like a Beeching or Serpell[1] can't be ruled out either, in that case?

    [1] e.g. outright closure of all loss-making parts, and full privatisation of the remains.
     
  22. J-Rod

    J-Rod Member

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    Not that I'm advocating re-nationalisation but I'm not sure that harking back to How Things Were is a valid argument for NOT doing it. Time's moved on a bit since...
     
  23. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Member

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    Had not thought of that. I suppose it is probably to silence those who say nationalisation is the best way forward (which I am not convinced it is).
     
  24. coppercapped

    coppercapped Established Member

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    The model of privatisation that was adopted was never intended to promote competition between TOCs on the same route - it was accepted very early on in the lead up to privatisation that the way the railway interworks made this impossible - with the exception of some small Open Access operators. This is why the TOCs were awarded what are essentially geographic monopolies - and because they were monopolies they were intentionally time limited to avoid the long term implications.

    The pressure to reduce the net cost to the Government of train operation was intended to come from the competition between the bidders when the franchises came up for renewal. This never happened in the manner foreseen by the promoters of privatisation because by the time the first franchises came up for renewal the Government had changed and the emphasis swung back to more central control with the creation of the Strategic Rail Authority. Rather than running their own businesses the TOCs became more and more simply the executive arm of the Department for Transport.
     
  25. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    But is that actually a problem? When a Council contracts out the bin emptying, they specify what service is going to be provided. The competition is on efficiency and cost.
     
  26. HH

    HH Established Member

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    I think the "Welsh experiment" is interesting - give a price and then say, "What can you deliver for that?".
     
  27. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Indeed, that retains the "money saving" type competition, but allows a bit of commercial imagination.
     
  28. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

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    As Chris Grayling set his terms of reference, I doubt it is a surprise to him.
    In any case, Keith Williams is just producing a report and recommendations.
    He won't be the one to implement them.
    Governments rarely accept independent reports in their entirety (or at all).

    There's a great deal of work to do to define an optimum structure for the rail industry, before deciding on ownership.
     
  29. coppercapped

    coppercapped Established Member

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    Yes.

    Because the idea was that the TOCs would be left to their own devices, within the legal framework set, and arrange their own rolling stock, between each other and the ROSCOs, they would have been free to set timetables and so on. The whole concept was that because they were closest to the customer they would be allowed freedom to change things as they saw fit as long as they stayed within their financial framework.

    Now the DfT sets timetables - eight years ago I was at an IMechE meeting about the IEP at which Stuart Baker of the DfT announced that the Western franchisee would be introducing an hourly non-stop train between London and Bristol. That was eight years ago - has anyone checked to see whether it is still (a) needed or (b) feasible without introducing more delays?

    The DfT controls train fleets, timetables and infrastructure enhancements and rather than letting the bidders propose a premium or subsidy profile that they thought achievable the DfT now defines the profile. It's not surprising things go wrong.
     
  30. ChiefPlanner

    ChiefPlanner Established Member

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    The DfT controls train fleets, timetables and infrastructure enhancements and rather than letting the bidders propose a premium or subsidy profile that they thought achievable the DfT now defines the profile. It's not surprising things go wrong.

    With very heavy dependency on shoals of consultants , who may be variable in knowledge etc.
     

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