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Andrew Nelson

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Just been over for a rather wet day-out in Blackpool yesterday on the bus, unfortunately, due to Blackpool Council not bothering to change bus-stop information when a service no longer uses a stop, I had to get the train back to Hebden, instead of the bus.

on purchase of my ticket at the machine, I noticed the return fare was £20.50, the exact same price as the Lancashire Day Ranger!

A ticket that allows travel west from Hebden to Manchester, Liverpool, Blackpool and the WCML between Wigan and Lancaster.

Ones question is, why is the Blackpool to Hebden Bridge ticket so pricey, or the Lancashire Day Ranger so cheap?

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/promotions/prc597f10a04000200b141b2f5c36eec/details.html
 
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tony_mac

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Because if the day ranger cost a lot more, people wouldn't buy it.

It's not unusual when going across the whole area; e.g. Cheshire and Thames Valley. In some cases there aren't day returns, so the rover is cheaper (Tyne-Tees, Hadrians Wall). I'm sure there are many others.

Although, in this case, the day return is a bit cheaper (£18.90). The anytime return is £20.50, valid for a month (route via Burnley).
 

34D

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Just been over for a rather wet day-out in Blackpool yesterday on the bus, unfortunately, due to Blackpool Council not bothering to change bus-stop information when a service no longer uses a stop, I had to get the train back to Hebden, instead of the bus.
Can I urge you to report the incorrect timetable via http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/services/s-z/transportinformationandtimetables so (hopefully) others don't have the same misfortune?
 

Oscar

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In many cases singles or returns within the area are more expensive than the Day Ranger e.g. Off-Peak Day Single (CDS) £24.60, Off-Peak Day Return (CDR) £24.70 Hebden Bridge - Southport. The more expensive singles and returns often let you go via routes outside of the Lancashire Day Ranger area over these longer distances though - you could also go via Huddersfield with the Off-Peak Day Single/Return in this example (I doubt most people would though).

A Routeing Guide question this has brought up - Hebden Bridge to Southport has (among others) Routeing Points Halifax and Liverpool and you can use maps MS and TP to travel between Halifax and Liverpool via Huddersfield and Manchester. Would you have to go via Halifax in this example because it is the Routeing Point or would a direct Hebden Bridge - Huddersfield train avoiding Halifax be fine?
 

Andrew Nelson

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In many cases singles or returns within the area are more expensive than the Day Ranger e.g. Off-Peak Day Single (CDS) £24.60, Off-Peak Day Return (CDR) £24.70 Hebden Bridge - Southport. The more expensive singles and returns often let you go via routes outside of the Lancashire Day Ranger area over these longer distances though - you could also go via Huddersfield with the Off-Peak Day Single/Return in this example (I doubt most people would though).

A Routeing Guide question this has brought up - Hebden Bridge to Southport has (among others) Routeing Points Halifax and Liverpool and you can use maps MS and TP to travel between Halifax and Liverpool via Huddersfield and Manchester. Would you have to go via Halifax in this example because it is the Routeing Point or would a direct Hebden Bridge - Huddersfield train avoiding Halifax be fine?
The Blackpool-Manchester-Hebden Bridge is far higher I believe.

My journey was 1 direct train.
 

table38

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Similaly if travelling around Greater Manchester after 21:00, an Evening Ranger at £2.30 is usually cheaper than a single or return.

However getting a ticket machine or guard to sell you one is a different matter :(
 

Oscar

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The Blackpool-Manchester-Hebden Bridge is far higher I believe.
Off-Peak Return is £30.60, so yes (there is no Off-Peak Day Return so this is the cheapest even when returning the same day). The one benefit over the Ranger is that you can use in at any time.
 

John @ home

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on purchase of my [Blackpool to Hebden Bridge] ticket at the machine, I noticed the return fare was £20.50, the exact same price as the Lancashire Day Ranger!

... why is the Blackpool to Hebden Bridge ticket so pricey, or the Lancashire Day Ranger so cheap?
The validity is quite different.

The £20.50 Lancashire Day Ranger is valid for one day only, at any time on weekends and Bank Holidays and from 08:45 Mondays to Fridays, giving unlimited travel within the area shown on the map.

The £20.50 Anytime Return Blackpool to Hebden Bridge route Burnley is valid for one return journey only, outward by any train on the date shown on the ticket or the next 4 days, return by any train within one month. It allows unlimited breaks of either leg of the journey.
 

table38

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We used them when I was at uni 12 years ago, and I think they were only £2 then. (after 6.30pm, not 9)
Correct, but there's usually a Cheap Evening Return which (for ordinary return journeys starting before 21:00) is usually cheaper than the Evening Ranger.

For example, outbound from Stalybridge to Manchester (return):

Code:
Before 9:30                    Anytime Return             £5.50
After 9:30                     Offpeak Return             £3.10
After 6:30, but before 21:00   Cheap Evening Return       £1.55
After 21:00                    Evening Ranger             £2.30
So it's really only after 21:00 the Evening Ranger is cheaper than a return.
 

OwlMan

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Oscar said:
A Routeing Guide question this has brought up - Hebden Bridge to Southport has (among others) Routeing Points Halifax and Liverpool and you can use maps MS and TP to travel between Halifax and Liverpool via Huddersfield and Manchester. Would you have to go via Halifax in this example because it is the Routeing Point or would a direct Hebden Bridge - Huddersfield train avoiding Halifax be fine?
You have to take the shortest route from your origin station to your routeing point. In this case Halifax is a routeing group consisting of Halifax and Sowerby Bridge, and you can pass through either or both.
So travelling via the line from Sowerby Bridge to Brighouse - Huddersfield would be fine.
 

Oscar

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When doing the fares check test and the possible Routeing Point is a group of stations, does it matter which station in the group you use for comparing fares? In this case could you compare either Halifax or Sowerby Bridge - destination with origin (e.g. Hebden Bridge) - destination?
 

John @ home

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When doing the fares check test and the possible Routeing Point is a group of stations, does it matter which station in the group you use for comparing fares?
As is common in railway routeing matters, this is not defined. In my opinion, one has to check the fare using each station in the group before one can say the group has failed the fares check.

See my post in Permitted routes for Southport-Chester, where I had to add the words in blue after tony_mac pointed out the difference between Liverpool Group and Liverpool Stns.

Those who have the skills to examine the NRG Data Feed in detail have told me that the software only compares the fares to/from one particular station in each Routeing Point Group. In the absence of any public list of these special stations, it seems unlikely to me that this would be judged to comply with the contract between the passenger and the train companies.
In this case could you compare either Halifax or Sowerby Bridge - destination with origin (e.g. Hebden Bridge) - destination?
In my opinion, yes.
 

Oscar

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From memory, Huddersfield is no longer a valid route, there is a hand written sign on the window of the booking office at Halifax Station about it.
This refers to journeys from Halifax - Manchester and has been discussed at length elsewhere.
 

Andrew Nelson

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I rang them this morning, and the chap says will call back tomorrow.
Well, they rang back yesterday afternoon, and said the council was not responsible for the information.
So nothing will change as nobody is interested in doing anything about it.

I'll get my hacksaw out then.
 

John @ home

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From memory, Huddersfield is no longer a valid route, there is a hand written sign on the window of the booking office at Halifax Station about it.
Can we please have the exact wording of the sign?
This refers to journeys from Halifax - Manchester
Halifax - Manchester now has two sets of fares
  • route via Hebden Bridge, which is valid only via Hebden Bridge, and
  • route Any Permitted, which is valid from Halifax to Manchester Piccadilly via Huddersfield because that's the shortest route.
So what about the grouping?

If they (HFX & HUD) are in the same group, why would it not be valid?
Halifax and Huddersfield are not in the same Group for routeing purposes. Halifax is a member of Halifax Group (Halifax and Sowerby Bridge). Huddersfield is a member of Huddersfield Group (Deighton, Huddersfield and Mirfield).
Well, they rang back yesterday afternoon, and said the council was not responsible for the information.
I agree. National Rail Enquiries shows that Halifax booking office is managed by Northern Rail.
 

tony_mac

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Halifax - Manchester now has two sets of fares
  • route via Hebden Bridge, which is valid only via Hebden Bridge, and
  • route Any Permitted, which is valid from Halifax to Manchester Piccadilly via Huddersfield because that's the shortest route.

  • National Rail Enquiries also confirms it is valid via Huddersfield, and I think it didn't a few months ago.

    Northern seem to have got themselves in a bit of a muddle with this; but I think the current outcome is sensible. (Once they let their staff know that an Any Permitted is valid via Huddersfield).

    I agree. National Rail Enquiries shows that Halifax booking office is managed by Northern Rail.
    That's in relation to the Blackpool buses!
 

Andrew Nelson

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Can we please have the exact wording of the sign?

Halifax - Manchester now has two sets of fares
  • route via Hebden Bridge, which is valid only via Hebden Bridge, and
  • route Any Permitted, which is valid from Halifax to Manchester Piccadilly via Huddersfield because that's the shortest route.
Halifax and Huddersfield are not in the same Group for routeing purposes. Halifax is a member of Halifax Group (Halifax and Sowerby Bridge). Huddersfield is a member of Huddersfield Group (Deighton, Huddersfield and Mirfield).
I agree. National Rail Enquiries shows that Halifax booking office is managed by Northern Rail.
NO, that was about Bus Stops in Blackpool.
 
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