Rail staff leisure cards (formerly TOC PRIV cards)

[rd749249]

Just arrived on my door mate for the coming year, RDG have renamed them as per the subject. The good news is they confirm a project has been started to retail tickets online for staff leisure travel. I look forward to that.

I don’t know whether this is a new condition of carriage but if a ticket cannot be bought from a ticket office prior to the journey commencing, a “Promise to Pay” notice must be purchased at the public rate, from Ticket Vending Machines. This looks to be different from the “Permit to Travel” facility.

Questions I have are 1) how do I know if a station has a Promise To Pay facility? 2) How much is the “public rate”? 3) If it’s more than the actual PRIV rate, will I get a refund and how long will that take?

Some of this maybe established protocol, so apologies in advance if this is known and stated elsewhere. I couldn’t find it first glance.

Where no ticket vending machines exist, it would seem that existing rules apply.

 

[Haywain]

Promise to Pay vouchers are issued free of charge.

 

[PupCuff]

On an aside, I wonder why the change to "Rail Staff Leisure Card"? Nothing like change for change's sake. It will still get referred to as 'Priv'.

 

[rd749249]

So why does the letter say “You must Promise to Pay at the public rate before boarding a train?” It’s misinformation.

 

[PupCuff]

It's using Promise To Pay as a synonym for Permit to Travel. The latter you have to purchase at a nominal rate (as low as 5p though really you're supposed to pay as much as you can up to the value of the fare) which then is given as credit towards the ticket you eventually buy whereas Promise to Pay you "purchase" at the public rate of, well, zero.

 

[yorkie]

So why does the letter say “You must Promise to Pay at the public rate before boarding a train?” It’s misinformation.

Indeed it is; someone should challenge this.

Not only that, but to obtain one, you have to agree not to use a debit/credit card!

Also I thought a Promise to Pay was just a Northern thing?

There is no legislation to back this up.

 

[CyrusWuff]

On an aside, I wonder why the change to "Rail Staff Leisure Card"? Nothing like change for change's sake. It will still get referred to as 'Priv'.

There's an associated Staff Brief from RDG to explain it. The short version is that it's to clarify that they're not valid to buy tickets for residential or duty travel.

 

[RJ]

No mention of Promise to Pay on the letter I got, we don't have that scheme here in the sunny South East of England - maybe there are different versions of the letter depending on where your TOC is based.

As for the change in name, some people do still buy a load of day tickets for their commute - something the powers that be don't want the card used for. There's less excuse for doing so now.

 

[High Dyke]

Just arrived on my door mate for the coming year, RDG have renamed them as per the subject. The good news is they confirm a project has been started to retail tickets online for staff leisure travel. I look forward to that.

I don’t know whether this is a new condition of carriage but if a ticket cannot be bought from a ticket office prior to the journey commencing, a “Promise to Pay” notice must be purchased at the public rate, from Ticket Vending Machines. This looks to be different from the “Permit to Travel” facility.

Questions I have are 1) how do I know if a station has a Promise To Pay facility? 2) How much is the “public rate”? 3) If it’s more than the actual PRIV rate, will I get a refund and how long will that take?

Some of this maybe established protocol, so apologies in advance if this is known and stated elsewhere. I couldn’t find it first glance.

Where no ticket vending machines exist, it would seem that existing rules apply.

I'll have to read the letter the Memsahib received with our new cards. On the matter of 'Promise to Pay', I encountered a situation last year. The ticket office of the station I was travelling from was closed, but there was a ticket machine available. However, said machine was not programmed for Permit to Travel tickets and the station is on a DOO route. At the end of the line I was allowed to exit the barriers and made my way to the ticket office to obtain the ticket I required - without any problem.

 

[Haywain]

Indeed it is; someone should challenge this.

Not only that, but to obtain one, you have to agree not to use a debit/credit card!

Also I thought a Promise to Pay was just a Northern thing?

There is no legislation to back this up.

I don't think that the lack of legislation is relevant in the case of staff travel - it's a clear instruction on how you must proceed in order to have the right to obtain a ticket at the Privilege rate. Similarly, the documents state that at "a station with an open ticket office, Priv-rate tickets must be purchased before boarding a train, irrespective of the length of the queue." As with the promise to pay, it is explicit that failure to follow these instructions is a travel irregularity for which the penalty is permanent loss of travel facilities - who would be daft enough to risk that?

 

[yorkie]

I don't think that the lack of legislation is relevant in the case of staff travel - it's a clear instruction on how you must proceed in order to have the right to obtain a ticket at the Privilege rate. Similarly, the documents state that at "a station with an open ticket office, Priv-rate tickets must be purchased before boarding a train, irrespective of the length of the queue." As with the promise to pay, it is explicit that failure to follow these instructions is a travel irregularity for which the penalty is permanent loss of travel facilities - who would be daft enough to risk that?

If RDG are threatening to withdraw a benefit of employment to anyone who refuses to 'promise to pay' for a ticket with cash (when they want to use a card) and to promise pay four times the correct fare, I am not sure that action by RDG would be lawful.

 

[Haywain]

If RDG are threatening to withdraw a benefit of employment to anyone who refuses to 'promise to pay' for a ticket with cash (when they want to use a card) and to promise pay four times the correct fare, I am not sure that action by RDG would be lawful.

But that isn't what is happening. The document from RDG states that a Promise to Pay should be obtained at the public rate before boarding, and it can then be exchanged for a Priv Rate ticket. There is no suggestion that there must subsequently be a cash payment or a payment at the full public rate.

 

[185]

Was some discussion of this today, regarding the addition of 'Promise to Pay / Pertis' prior to travel to the TOCNE staff travel conditions. The letter sent out which accompanies the page with the Priv pass on, does indeed state persons in a Penalty Fare area must obtain something from a machine prior to travel.

Some pointed out the high number (11, I think) of repeated 'threats' in the letter (ie to withdraw facilities, disciplinary or prosecution). One key point raised was the BR Boxes for safeguarded staff (allegedly) didn't mention anywhere near as many 'threats' and there was no mention of P2P or Pertis (I'm told). Whilst the TOCNE/Non-SG is non-contractual and the SG Boxes is technically contractual, one point suggested that I agree with, is that only both - or neither should be issued with the err.. 'helpful' letter.

Anyway. Back in the real world, if I get shown a Priv with a Pertis or one of Northern's P2P's, they can travel 1st Class to Thurso and drink the bar dry for all I care. Allegedly.

 

[rd749249]

I can’t see how this letter is anything other than generic for all TOC staff. I’m going down my local station (in south east England) to find out if I can get a promise to pay ticket and if so, how much. The ticket office is closed until 3pm at the moment.

 

[LowLevel]

Promise to pay is Northern's daft scheme. I don't even look at them and throw them in the next bin I walk past.

 

[185]

Indeed it is; someone should challenge this.
Not only that, but to obtain one, you have to agree not to use a debit/credit card!

Fully agree. Why should staff have to use cash, especially after travel is relaxed during this long term health incident.

There is no legislation to back this up.

Wrong as it is, would they need it if it's an employment condition not a legal stipulation?

 

[yorkie]

But that isn't what is happening. The document from RDG states that a Promise to Pay should be obtained at the public rate before boarding, and it can then be exchanged for a Priv Rate ticket. There is no suggestion that there must subsequently be a cash payment or a payment at the full public rate.

But to obtain a promise to pay, you have to agree that you will be paying in cash and paying the amount specified, at least that was the case the last time I looked.

And what if you wan a Rover/Ranger? Or a combination of tickets?

Northern's half-baked "Promise To Pay" scheme is not fit for purpose.

Not only that, but what if the machine isn't working?

 

[ainsworth74]

I can’t see how this letter is anything other than generic for all TOC staff. I’m going down my local station (in south east England) to find out if I can get a promise to pay ticket and if so, how much. The ticket office is closed until 3pm at the moment.

By my reading of that if you travel in a Penalty Fare area which does not have a Promise to Pay facility (which is the majority of them I believe) you can presumably board the train and buy on board (or at the destination) as it doesn't tell you to get a Permit to Travel (which is different to a Promise to Pay)...

Perhaps it's just me but I feel like the RDG/RST have managed to get themselves tied up in knots over Northern's (and I feel like someone else does them too but I can't remember who) Promise to Pay scheme and have forgotten that it's not universal in Penalty Fare areas and that it applies to people who wish to pay by cash rather than just "the ticket I want is not available" which is what they're now trying to hack it into being used as.

 

[Mag_seven]

One key point raised was the BR Boxes for safeguarded staff (allegedly) didn't mention anywhere near as many threats and there was no mention of P2P or Pertis.

This is what the wording for safeguarded staff says:

Privilege Rate Travel

Privilege rate tickets must be purchased before boarding a train by presenting the card at the ticket office. If you fail to do so, the Train Company may refuse to sell you a privilege ticket on the train and may charge you the standard public fare and this may be treated as a travel irregularity.

If there are no booking facilities at the station, you can buy a privilege rate ticket on board the train.

As you can see no mention of P2P or Pertis. Note the use of the word "may" and also the term "ticket office" in the first paragraph and "booking facilities" in the second paragraph!

 

[185]

Having two schemes could already be seen to be a potential litigation risk for the railway anyway, regardless of it being described as "an inherited BR pension condition" ...where they have now exacerbated things I wonder if this could face scrutiny in terms of (allegedly) imposing different conditions on some employees based on having a start date after 1996 or not.

 

[Haywain]

Having two schemes could already be seen to be a potential litigation risk for the railway anyway, regardless of it being described as "an inherited BR pension condition" ...where they have now exacerbated things I wonder if this could face scrutiny in terms of (allegedly) imposing different conditions on some employees based on having a start date after 1996 or not.

The term 'safeguarded' is used for the travel benefits of staff who started before 1996 because they are safeguarded by act of parliament. If it was subject to legal challenge I suspect the rail unions would have done that by now.

 

[Haywain]

if you travel in a Penalty Fare area which does not have a Promise to Pay facility you can presumably board the train and buy on board

The letter specifically states that this is the case, no presumption is required.

 

[Ralph Ayres]

At least they seem to have given up on the confusing (at least in the London area) Staff Travel Card name. Meanwhile through my employer I still have a PTAC to accompany it! The latest name change does though indicate that there is still no move towards dropping the insistence on travel to/from work requiring a Season ticket. That really belongs to an age when all Priv single and return tickets were valid for a month so in the absence of any clipping/stamping/automatic gates a return ticket could be misused as a monthly season. As with members of the public, modern working practices and styles of living mean that travel patterns to/from work are much more varied than they were in the 1960s, but ticketing arrangements haven't caught up.

(and I know we shouldn't grumble too much as we do get cheaper fares but money is still money!)

 

[rd749249]

They should create an app whereby staff can purchase tickets to be shown on demand. Each journey requires an activation and can be endorsed by a ticket inspector or barrier. Fail to activate brings the usual consequences.

 

[Haywain]

They should create an app whereby staff can purchase tickets to be shown on demand. Each journey requires an activation and can be endorsed by a ticket inspector or barrier. Fail to activate brings the usual consequences.

Re-invent the m-Ticket? No thanks.

 

[theironroad]

Just arrived on my door mate for the coming year, RDG have renamed them as per the subject. The good news is they confirm a project has been started to retail tickets online for staff leisure travel. I look forward to that.

I don’t know whether this is a new condition of carriage but if a ticket cannot be bought from a ticket office prior to the journey commencing, a “Promise to Pay” notice must be purchased at the public rate, from Ticket Vending Machines. This looks to be different from the “Permit to Travel” facility.

Questions I have are 1) how do I know if a station has a Promise To Pay facility? 2) How much is the “public rate”? 3) If it’s more than the actual PRIV rate, will I get a refund and how long will that take?

Some of this maybe established protocol, so apologies in advance if this is known and stated elsewhere. I couldn’t find it first glance.

Where no ticket vending machines exist, it would seem that existing rules apply.

I must admit the promise to pay thing is a bit different, as on the northern website it says you have to put your destination in, so will always be higher than a priv ticket.

Maybe someone on northern on here could explain what happens to the promise to pay vouchers when presented to the guard. Do they have a qr code or something that automatically transfers the promise to pay into a ticket in their machine or do they just issue a ticket as normal , in which case the priv rate ticket would just be as normal from scratch.

I can’t see how this letter is anything other than generic for all TOC staff. I’m going down my local station (in south east England) to find out if I can get a promise to pay ticket and if so, how much. The ticket office is closed until 3pm at the moment.

Yeah, seems generic enough. All the old style Pertis machines were removed from swr I think so buy on train applies.

I'd be interested in a scan of the safeguarded letter if anyone is prepared to put one up.

 

[philthetube]

I wonder what is going to happen with LUL priv holders?

 

[8J]

RSTL need abolishing. They are the single most unhelpful organisation I've ever had the misfortune of encountering.

The industry would save itself a lot of money and unnecessary hassle if the individual HR departments issued passes and privilege facilities as opposed to these clowns. Maybe a system where you get a number of boxes for a day's free travel per year. Who'd have thought of such a good idea as that! I hope that the Scheme Compliance Manager reads this too and realises what rail staff actually think of their shoddy organisation!

 

[221129]

if the individual HR departments issued passes and privilege facilities

That would be a terrible idea.

 

[furlong]

It just looks like a clumsy letter ("purchase"?) written by someone who's never used one of the machines. I expect they should have written that the letter acts both as authority and instruction to lie to the machine (in specifically stated ways) and the "agreement" you have to make will not be enforced (in respect of paying public fare in cash) etc.