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Rail strikes discussion

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43066

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In fact it's almost no different to strikes, except the travelling public are not disadvantaged.

It’s a fundamentally different concept to strike action. Unions *cannot* advise their members to do this, and anyone doing so would no longer benefit from the various legal protections afforded to legitimate strike action.

Ceasing to enforce fares might involve a short term hit-and a few of the punters will take the piss and try it on. But the majority will see it as a one off bonus and happily continue to use the railway.

Ceasing to enforce (eg a guard exercising discretion to not go through a train when working to rule) is a different animal to knowingly allowing passengers to travel for free.
 
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Iskra

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Big pay rises could push prices up, says minister

Simon Clarke said that big increases in salaries to meet the rising cost of living could end up in a 1970s style "inflationary spiral".

This happens when wage rises help push up the cost of living.

Mr Clarke said that employers should be "very careful" in setting pay rises that help drive up the cost of living.

He warned that inflation could become a "self-fulfilling prophecy".
 
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Starmill

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Why? What are the customers going to do about pay/working conditions etc.?
I guess you'd have to ask them for a fuller explanation, but because commercial and reputational downsides are useful leverage? I would have thought that was fairly obvious really.
 

gabrielhj07

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I guess you'd have to ask them for a fuller explanation, but because commercial and reputational downsides are useful leverage? I would have thought that was fairly obvious really.
Leverage maybe but it harms the industry - these passengers may need an awful lot of persuasion to return to rail travel.
 

ComUtoR

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Big pay rises could push prices up, says minister


There are many issues over the cost of living crisis. One of which is that wages are not rising with inflation. A few weeks ago there were statements made regarding nobody should be asking for wage rises. That was met with critisism. There can be no real doubt that everyone going up only moves the bar higher but that has always been the case. The trick is to keep inflation to a minimum. That way wages can rise in line with inflation as a "cost of living rise" My wages over the years has generally risen with inflation. One of those perks of a Union is to protect wages and keep those 'cost of living rises' This situation is no different. We are generally asking for a cost of living rise. As already mentioned. ScotRail has reflected the current crisis and recognised the COVID situation. 5% does seem reasonable and whilst not 'inflation' it does recognise that we are post pandemic.

What cannot be allowed to happen is an outright depression of wages. This isn't something I want just for "the railway" but something I want for everyone.

What I would politely suggest is that concerns over the cost of living and what 9/10% wage rises would do are also considered on balance with how wages under inflation can cause poverty and indeed a "cost of living crisis"

May I suggest the BBC as a starting point for research.


However, the rising cost of food, energy and household goods has pushed inflation, which measures how the cost of living changes over time, to a 30-year high. Prices surged by 5.5% in the 12 months to January, up from 5.4% in December, increasing pressure on household budgets.
The Resolution Foundation think tank has warned that the squeeze on workers will get worse, with those on the lowest incomes most likely to be affected by surging bills.
 
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43066

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Doesn't stop it being a good idea, and it wouldn't push people away from the railways.

It’s not a good idea for anyone who wants to keep their jobs!

It’s impossible for unions to do this, so let’s stop any suggestion they’re deliberately choosing to inconvenience passengers more than they need to before it starts!
 

Starmill

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Leverage maybe but it harms the industry - these passengers may need an awful lot of persuasion to return to rail travel.
Yes, that's the idea. Balpa for example are very careful in disputes to cause the airline just enough commercial damage to show up in the accounts and earnings calls, but not quite so much that the business comes up against insolvency.
 

Iskra

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gabrielhj07

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let’s stop any suggestion they’re deliberately choosing to inconvenience passengers more than they need to before it starts!
Except they are deliberatley inconveniencing passengers, by going on strike.

Yes, that's the idea. Balpa for example are very careful in disputes to cause the airline just enough commercial damage to show up in the accounts and earnings calls, but not quite so much that the business comes up against insolvency.
Although airlines don't face modal competition in the same way the railways do - their customer base for travel (esp. international) is pretty much guaranteed for as long as people want to travel anywhere that isn't reachable by train or car.
 

Mintona

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Honestly would be delighted with a 2% increase but I am coming at that from a higher starting salary. Can see why RMT would want more for their members.

I was hoping they might call the strikes off this afternoon, to say ‘look, we don’t want to disrupt festivals and exams etc.. Now is your chance to make us a proper offer or we will be striking regularly all summer’. Would’ve put the ball firmly in the DfT’s court.
 

Wolfie

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Does that mean they should vote Conservative in the next general election ? How many years away is that ? I wonder what a defeated RMT would look like. Closure of the Union ?

I don't believe that political ideology should be part of this fight. The loser is the passenger. By having an ideology so entrenched in hatred towards the RMT and doing everything to see their destruction makes you blind to the reality. It makes you blind to what is fair and makes you blind to what could be done to resolve this strike and support the future of the railway.
I don't hate railway workers or RMT. I do though think that they have got so accustomed to having everything their way that they expect that to continue indefinitely and forget the passengers and/or taxpayers. The staff tail has wagged the railway dog for far too long.
 

Mintona

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Average weekly pay is (as of April 2022) 14% above where it was in April 2019 -- £533 to £604


Presumably railway (and public sector) pay has increased a commensurate rate?

Well no, the vast majority of railway staff haven’t had a payrise at all since 2019. That’s kinda why we are 45 pages into this thread in a matter of days.
 

43066

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Except they are deliberatley inconveniencing passengers, by going on strike.

No, they’re deliberately withdrawing their labour. Inconveniencing people is inevitable and but it’s not what’s motivating this.

They’re also losing a lot of money each day they strike so this isn’t something they’d do lightly! It’s not about the passengers.

I was hoping they might call the strikes off this afternoon, to say ‘look, we don’t want to disrupt festivals and exams etc.. Now is your chance to make us a proper offer or we will be striking regularly all summer’. Would’ve put the ball firmly in the DfT’s court.

It’s already too late is my understanding. All the arrangements have been made for next week.

The staff tail has wagged the railway dog for far too long.

This reminds me of something. Oh yes…

Much of that is your highly subjective judgement masquerading as fact.

That is clearly your view and you’re perfectly entitled to it. However you must therefore expect people to read your “I’m a civil servant and I know the government are coming for the railway” comments as also being subjective judgment masquerading as fact.
 

ComUtoR

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I don't hate railway workers or RMT. I do though think that they have got so accustomed to having everything their way that they expect that to continue indefinitely and forget the passengers and/or taxpayers. The staff tail has wagged the railway dog for far too long.

I don't disagree but do you really want to vilify the RMT so much that you are not concerned about the collateral damage this is going to cause?

Change is needed, change has been agreed, Goverment has said no. Purely to score political points and destroy the RMT. You are more part of the problem than the solution. Seek to resolve what the issues are and bring people to the negotiating table. If that 'offer' was 5% do you really believe that the RMT would outright refuse or go back to the members? Did you read anything about productivity increases or changes to make the railway better ? No, just a 2% to stop striking. Shapps says he wants change but in reality it's a lie and everyone has swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

Keep scoring those political points it's solving absolutely nothing.
 

yorksrob

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It’s a fundamentally different concept to strike action. Unions *cannot* advise their members to do this, and anyone doing so would no longer benefit from the various legal protections afforded to legitimate strike action.



Ceasing to enforce (eg a guard exercising discretion to not go through a train when working to rule) is a different animal to knowingly allowing passengers to travel for free.

It would be better if it was explicitly allowed as a form of industrial action, as seems to be the case in some other countries.

If it were allowed it would be vastly less damaging to the industry than strike action.
 

Iskra

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I don't hate railway workers or RMT. I do though think that they have got so accustomed to having everything their way that they expect that to continue indefinitely and forget the passengers and/or taxpayers. The staff tail has wagged the railway dog for far too long.

Couldn’t agree more. I think the unions have seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and the DFT at a time when the railway is less important for the economy than it has ever been. Combined with a PM that urgently needs to appear relevant and a treasury that’s probably happy to save on the wage bill- I think it’s going to be an interesting summer for the railway.

For the record, I’d be happy for payrises in line with real revenue growth above 2019 base level. This might encourage more focus on actually delivering a decent, value for money service to passengers and the taxpayer rather than them just being taken for a ride as a cash cow for the gravy train. Everyone would win that way.
 
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43066

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Whether it's motivating it or not, that is what is happening.

I know, and that’s regrettable for everyone involved.

Keep in mind the staff who actually like interacting with passengers (and will also sadly get the brunt of any backlash) are the ones going on strike next week. Also the lowly paid ones, including cleaners.

I often feel guilty keying off and going home, leaving some absolute cesspit of a train for some poor sod on minimum wage to clear up the vomit and excrement.

Don’t these people deserve a pay rise?

Evidently!

It really is a shame that the railway seems to be run for it's own good, no consideration that people might want to use it...

Again - who is “the railway”? What you’re seeing is one part of the railway in dispute with another. The government have precipitated this situation by refusing to allow TOCs to negotiate.

It would be better if it was explicitly allowed as a form of industrial action, as seems to be the case in some other countries.

If it were allowed it would be vastly less damaging to the industry than strike action.

Perhaps it would, but that’s probably not a debate to have here as there’s zero chance of it ever happening.
 

yorkie

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....You are more part of the problem than the solution...
Says someone who offers no solutions whatsoever
....Keep scoring those political points it's solving absolutely nothing.
The irony in this is off the scale.
Oh my, eat a Snickers or something
And that's your argument? Well, I don't know about anyone else, but that's me convinced... (!)

Ceasing to enforce fares might involve a short term hit-and a few of the punters will take the piss and try it on. But the majority will see it as a one off bonus and happily continue to use the railway.
This already happens on TPE; I've seldom seen a Guard on TPE serves for many, many months now. On the rare occasions I've seen one walk through the train, they rarely check tickets, and when they do, they don't scan them.

I wouldn't be able to get away with that sort of action in any job I've ever done.
The problem is that the reality of what you suggest would have consequences that you aren't suggesting.
What am I suggesting?
I support a modest pay rise after three years of no pay rises at a time when costs are going through the roof. I would certain like industrial action to be avoided, but if the alternative is to commit to a sustained period of substantial real terms pay degradation, then I can't support that, no. Something would have to be done. Separately there are other factors involved in the dispute that can't just be swept under the carpet.



Alternatively, no more pay rises, ordinary people just take it on the chin and suffer the long term consequences, as is expected by the leadership of this country?
I don't think there is any chance your pay isn't going to rise but it's a question of how much and when; striking is unlikely to work as if the Government caved in it would only invite more of that sort of behaviour. They need to stand firm on this.
Which bit wouldn't you agree with? I'm just trying to read between the lines and understand what your position would mean for rail staff.
You just state something I didn't say and pass it off as what I am thinking; it's nonsense. I've said what I've said and I don't need you to try to re-word it with a different meaning, thank you.

The outrage over what in reality comes down to whether colleagues in any workplace are obliged to befriend each other seems rather like a stick that is being used to beat everyone.
This is so far off the mark it's unreal ; what sort of workplaces are you talking about anyway? It's not about "befriending"; again you do like to twist people's words.

I really don't understand what you are trying to achieve other than further turning the general public against your cause. If that's your aim, well done!
 
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gabrielhj07

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Don’t these people deserve a pay rise?
They most certainly do. Slightly OT but the cleaners at Waterloo have to be some of the most skilled workers in the country. I once saw a team of them tidy up a filthy 8-455 in all of 4 minutes!

Again - who is “the railway”? What you’re seeing is one part of the railway in dispute with another. The government have precipitated this situation by refusing to allow TOCs to negotiate.
I am referring to 'the railway' as the entity seen by the travelling public, of course there are detailed nuances to labour over.
 

yorksrob

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Perhaps it would, but that’s probably not a debate to have here as there’s zero chance of it ever happening.

As usual, other countries seem to have alighted on this as a compromise but no such luck here !
 

Wolfie

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I don't disagree but do you really want to vilify the RMT so much that you are not concerned about the collateral damage this is going to cause?

Change is needed, change has been agreed, Goverment has said no. Purely to score political points and destroy the RMT. You are more part of the problem than the solution. Seek to resolve what the issues are and bring people to the negotiating table. If that 'offer' was 5% do you really believe that the RMT would outright refuse or go back to the members? Did you read anything about productivity increases or changes to make the railway better ? No, just a 2% to stop striking. Shapps says he wants change but in reality it's a lie and everyone has swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

Keep scoring those political points it's solving absolutely nothing.
With respect to your second para you obviously missed this post (#1285) in response to your goodself......
If that last para is true l agree that is wholly unacceptable.
 

gazzaa2

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The government are being deceitful and we all know it. It's their dead hand behind the failure. Does anyone really believe that 13 TOC's couldn't come to a settlement

The government are banking on taking on the RMT being Scargill revisited and boost their popularity.
 
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