Rail strikes discussion

[RPI]

The RMT have said (on the back of the agreement with Merseyrail) that "Wherever we're dealing with somebody who's not directly controlled by the DfT, we're making progress,"

Given that GWR's National Rail Contract commences on 26th June, might that allow GWR to negotiate separately from the national talks and the "cold dead hand of the Government".....

I suspect (though I am speculating) that there's something written onto the Emergency Mearsures Agreement.

 

[michael74]

No. See Section 2.2 of everyone’s NRC, paragraph 3.2.

That basically says the DfT has total control over pay and conditions. It’s that stark.

Oh dear.

 

[uglymonkey]

Why is it OK for some routes to be DOO and other ones not ? If its safety critical surely its safety critical everywhere?

 

[Snow1964]

The RMT have said (on the back of the agreement with Merseyrail) that "Wherever we're dealing with somebody who's not directly controlled by the DfT, we're making progress,"

I learnt long while ago, it is not what is said, but the big chunk not mentioned.

In other words, mentioning making progress with a small operator, gives no guide how they are getting on why the operators where Government holds the purse strings (which appears to be no nearer than before we had 2 days of strikes).

So question becomes how many days of strikes, 2 … 20 … 200 … are they prepared to keep banging head against a brick wall if Government limit has been reached.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why is it OK for some routes to be DOO and other ones not ? If its safety critical surely its safety critical everywhere?

Give or take specific stations with specific issues which might require dispatchers, or Absolute Block where train protection rules require a second safety critical member of staff*, I agree. It's safe enough or it's not.

* I can't however see why that member of staff should be required to operate the doors, though, given that the doors were operated by passengers when said rules were written.

 

[irish_rail]

Is it not in GWR drivers (as in non HSS) conditions now? Not a provocative question but just out of interest.

Quite possibly , I'm HSS so not sure, I know HSS will never accept it , although we are dying out now of course sadly.

 

[choochoochoo]

NR is a single entity and there is no reason why their staff, given suitable training of course, should not be able to attend issues nearby, even if not their normal area.

You'll find companies like NR and TOCs are loathed to provide additional training when the chances of it ever being needed are minimal.

Other than the initial training, every year they'd have to account for staff having days off productive duty so they could go get recurrent training to maintain their competency.

 

[Bald Rick]

You should stick to what you know.

I quite agree. Fortunately, in a previous job I used to meet with the ASLEF reps in Anglia.

Would businesses located within station properties such as M&S, McDonalds, WH Smith, Superdrug, PRET, independent coffee concessions etc have a claim against the railway for ‘loss of profit’ during the current strike especially if it continues?

They pay a premium in rents to be at high footfall locations, so rent is still be paid, staff being paid, energy costs etc yet only serving a handful of customers, losses must be huge.

If so would that be against?
Network Rail? The RMT? Who?

Retailers are having an adverse effect on their businesses through no fault of their own.

As I’ve said before there are casualties of this strike in a number of sectors.

They are mostly on turnover rent (and have been for well over a decade), and would be unlikely to have a claim. The certainly do not have the ability to claim for times there are no passengers for other reasons, eg Engineering works, bad weather, etc etc.

 

[Mintona]

Is it not in GWR drivers (as in non HSS) conditions now? Not a provocative question but just out of interest.

Yes, that’s correct.

 

[Darandio]

Arriva bus drivers in Yorkshire haven’t done a days work for the best part of 3 weeks now, and they are presumably on less than the average RMT member, so it presumably is possible

40000+ striking rail workers is a whole different proposition than 600-700 bus drivers receiving daily strike pay much closer to their normal daily wage.

 

[bramling]

You'll find companies like NR and TOCs are loathed to provide additional training when the chances of it ever being needed are minimal.

Other than the initial training, every year they'd have to account for staff having days off productive duty so they could go get recurrent training to maintain their competency.

Exactly. Companies don’t want people having all competencies and such which they rarely use, as it costs time and money to maintain them. There’s enough issues maintaining the basics at times (which leads to problems when they cut knowledge, but then when an incident occurs we all wonder why the response isn’t great).

 

[Horizon22]

Aslef members don't want DOO no matter what is put in front of us. Seeing the way that guard was dealt with after the James St incident in Liverpool has made most drivers realise that their liberty is more important than a few extra bucks. The Government can keep dreaming of DOO but it ain't gonna happen.

Tell that to Southern drivers.

GTR OBS's get a pretty reasonable salary for a non safety critical role so other than removing the dependency on a guard to run a service not sure how much savings they really achieved.

Arguably it was more performance and revenue based. Again, arguably.

 

[Watershed]

Would businesses located within station properties such as M&S, McDonalds, WH Smith, Superdrug, PRET, independent coffee concessions etc have a claim against the railway for ‘loss of profit’ during the current strike especially if it continues?

They pay a premium in rents to be at high footfall locations, so rent is still be paid, staff being paid, energy costs etc yet only serving a handful of customers, losses must be huge.

If so would that be against?
Network Rail? The RMT? Who?

Retailers are having an adverse effect on their businesses through no fault of their own.

As I’ve said before there are casualties of this strike in a number of sectors.

They certainly wouldn't have a claim against the RMT - section 219 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 protects trade unions and picketers from liability for inducing others to act in breach of contract - provided the industrial action is lawful (i.e. a ballot with the required majority has been undertaken).

As for whether they have a claim against NR, that will be down to the terms of their lease. But in all likelihood, again no.

 

[Horizon22]

there are usually many more than 6-7 wrong routings on any given day.

I meant to say “wouldn’t be unheard of” - I agree 6-7 is not anything to write home about.

As an aside, the Tories getting a right kicking in their two by-elections might cause them to take stock and realise they could be in for a very uncomfortable summer if they don’t deal with this - and other - industrial disputes as it’s clear the mood of the country is rather sour.

 

[ar10642]

There are still some reserves

An indefinite strike
Or Network Rail striking every other day and TOC staff on the days in between meaning staff would alternate between being on strike, and working but with very little work to do on the days in between

When do we think the next dates will be announced and when is the earliest they could occur?

If this went on for any serious length of time why would the government not just start severely cutting services, making compulsory redundancies and shutting branch lines? I'm sure there are plenty of loss making lines they'd jump at the chance to get rid of if they thought they could get away with it. The more useless the railway chooses to make itself the more people will just find alternatives and make the railway even more irrelevant to the majority of people it already is.

 

[LowLevel]

All bringing DOO into it for me has galvanised me to be more in favour of striking.

I don't think it will be knocking at my door imminently (158s and 170s, antiquated network including signalling, very wiggly wobbly short and long platforms, mix up of rural, inter urban and long distance trains and it appears what little station staffing we have away from the main hubs will be abolished shortly having been largely absent for the last 2 years anyway) but when it does I don't want to have to choose between being demoted to a "host", no doubt with a much more heavy focus on confrontational revenue duties rather than the positive interactions I mostly have at present, or applying to be a driver to retain any operational duties that make me tick but lose any customer contact that I very much enjoy.

 

[ar10642]

GTR and GA trains between the Fens and London have no onboard staff at all, unless you count the occasional revenue protection staff and the contract cleaners.

Same for Thameslink which are usually very busy.

Aslef members don't want DOO no matter what is put in front of us. Seeing the way that guard was dealt with after the James St incident in Liverpool has made most drivers realise that their liberty is more important than a few extra bucks. The Government can keep dreaming of DOO but it ain't gonna happen.

It already happened on Southern. I guess money talks when it comes to it.

 

[Moonshot]

If this went on for any serious length of time why would the government not just start severely cutting services, making compulsory redundancies and shutting branch lines? I'm sure there are plenty of loss making lines they'd jump at the chance to get rid of if they thought they could get away with it. The more useless the railway chooses to make itself the more people will just find alternatives and make the railway even more irrelevant to the majority of people it already is.

The political fall out from that would just kill the Tory government in its tracks.....they would in effect be signing one of the longest suicide notes in history. As it stands now, despite the current difficulty, I ve not seen any evidence to suggest that the long term investment plans we all know about are actually being culled.

 

[ar10642]

Fair enough, playing the nurses, doctors..insert anyone else….deserve a payraise is also tiresome.

Is this thread seriously still limping on ?

Nobody's forcing you to participate.

 

[Towers]

I don't think anybody should be surprised at the ugly appearance of DOO, it would be a huge surprise and a massive opportunity that the government would have missed had they not brought it into these talks. In reality I would think it likely that something along the lines of Southern's OBS would be the likely outcome, as there'll always be a need for both assistance and revenue duties on board trains, and I can't imagine the government would fancy the redundancy bill for several thousand staff.

 

[ar10642]

The political fall out from that would just kill the Tory government in its tracks.....they would in effect be signing one of the longest suicide notes in history. As it stands now, despite the current difficulty, I ve not seen any evidence to suggest that the long term investment plans we all know about are actually being culled.

Would it though? I'm not convinced much of the general public care about trains at all. The majority of people I know use them for getting to London occasionally and that's it.

 

[Moonshot]

Would it though? I'm not convinced much of the general public care about trains at all. The majority of people I know use them for getting to London occasionally and that's it.

No doubt the railway is an irrelevance to a lot of people......but with a green agenda featuring more and more in government policies, you would have to wonder what a viable alternative would be.

 

[Ivor]

They certainly wouldn't have a claim against the RMT - section 219 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 protects trade unions and picketers from liability for inducing others to act in breach of contract - provided the industrial action is lawful (i.e. a ballot with the required majority has been undertaken).

As for whether they have a claim against NR, that will be down to the terms of their lease. But in all likelihood, again no.

Thanks for that, it would definitely be in everyone’s interest that this strike is resolved asap but not sure that will happen anytime soon.

So many now feeling the fall out in addition to passengers, there is local business in & around rail hubs.

With that said in every scenario there are winners as I read the likes of Uber, National Express, buses etc have all had a big upturn in business.

 

[ar10642]

No doubt the railway is an irrelevance to a lot of people......but with a green agenda featuring more and more in government policies, you would have to wonder what a viable alternative would be.

Electric cars probably. How much infrastructure could the government build for that if it culled big loss making chunks of the network?

I'm not saying I want this to happen by the way, I like train travel. But if the strikes go on and on these conversations might well come up.

 

[nedchester]

I don't think anybody should be surprised at the ugly appearance of DOO, it would be a huge surprise and a massive opportunity that the government would have missed had they not brought it into these talks. In reality I would think it likely that something along the lines of Southern's OBS would be the likely outcome, as there'll always be a need for both assistance and revenue duties on board trains, and I can't imagine the government would fancy the redundancy bill for several thousand staff.

I think that DOO was always going to return on suitable lines and will be progressed further in the future. I do wonder though whether some guards could be offered the chance of driving jobs as part of the increase in requirement for drivers when Sunday inevitably becomes part of the working week which requires more staff.

 

[Exscrew]

Electric cars probably. How much infrastructure could the government build for that if it culled big loss making chunks of the network?

Yeah the government should cut its loses and shut the railway. Will stop these left wing barons fighting to protect there rights.
Also while we are at it we should decimate the rest of the public sector to save the government money .... oh wait already been done.
If your thinking of savings to be had look into the hooky deals that have been done by the people in power I.e Chris grayling and his ferries.

 

[Moonshot]

Electric cars probably. How much infrastructure could the government build for that if it culled big loss making chunks of the network?

I'm not saying I want this to happen by the way, I like train travel. But if the strikes go on and on these conversations might well come up.

They probably come up now......but the wider economic benefits of running a subsidised rail service tend to be missing from those conversations. They are not easy to quantify either.

 

[ar10642]

They probably come up now......but the wider economic benefits of running a subsidised rail service tend to be missing from those conversations. They are not easy to quantify either.

I think there are wider social benefits and I am happy with the railways being there, but those arguments start to fade away if the railway chooses to make itself useless for extended periods of time.

Yeah the government should cut its loses and shut the railway. Will stop these left wing barons fighting to protect there rights.

I mean yes, that's exactly what the government might be thinking at this point.

 

[ctrh136]

How much notice do the unions have to give before future strike dates? Is it still 2 weeks?

 

[HuggyB87]

How much notice do the unions have to give before future strike dates? Is it still 2 weeks?

Yes. Don’t be shocked for an announcement to coincide with Orange Lodge day