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Rail strikes discussion

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Thumper1127

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I only knew because I saw it being talked about.
Apparently it’s to help out the country because the government was so nice paying people not to work during covid!
No it wasn’t. It was expressly for the NHS for the first two years to help clear Covid related backlogs and then it is meant to be for social care. Whether there will be sufficient visible that it is being used for that is another matter although my understanding is that from the third year the 1.5% will be separately listed on your payslip as a Social Care Levy.
 
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TheBigD

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No it wasn’t. It was expressly for the NHS for the first two years to help clear Covid related backlogs and then it is meant to be for social care. Whether there will be sufficient visible that it is being used for that is another matter although my understanding is that from the third year the 1.5% will be separately listed on your payslip as a Social Care Levy.
Could you clarify please?

NI went up by 1.25% on both the standard and additional rates, 12% to 13.25% and 2% to 3.25% respectively.

What is the 1.5% social care levy please?
 

skyhigh

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Latest rumour is that the most recent offer was:
2.5% pay rise but with the strings of...
  • Accepting DCO (Driver Controlled operation) at every train operating company.
  • Sundays inside working week
  • No rule out of some form of Fire & Rehire for Guards
  • Accepting closures of every ticket office in this country.
  • No guarantee no of Compulsary Redundancies!
 

pt_mad

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I have no major issues with a reduced Sunday service - something that is already in place. It's cancellations on top of the already reduced service due to a lack of Sunday volunteers that is problematic. Most Sundays are fine but in my view "most" is not good enough - it needs to be every Sunday because it is should be considered a normal part of the working week and leisure travel has rebounded the best post-Covid.

And there wouldn't any problems with that.

Perhaps where the issue lies is that it's desired Sunday becomes part of the normal working week, but not part of someone's basic hours, which is the general interpretation of the proposals.

I.e. the basic railway week is increased to 40 hours, plus a mandatory Sunday at 8 hours.

That would mean effectively a basic week of 48 hours, (4 days of approx 10 hours say for station staff) plus a Sunday at 8 hours, which is the limit which can be forced afaik due to working time regulations.

Now if staff actually were rostered a Sunday within the basic 40 hour week as one of their basic days and not as extra, that may be seen by some as more manageable with regards potential fatigue build up and work life balance.

If Sundays are to be a normal day as any other, why can't the proposals just be to hire the staff needed to roster them as a normal day of their basic hours and not as an extra day still?

These proposals would also raise the question whether staff can go sick on a Sunday and be paid sick pay and return the next day?
 
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Watershed

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Latest rumour is that the most recent offer was:
2.5% pay rise but with the strings of...
  • Accepting DCO (Driver Controlled operation) at every train operating company.
  • Sundays inside working week
  • No rule out of some form of Fire & Rehire for Guards
  • Accepting closures of every ticket office in this country.
  • No guarantee no of Compulsary Redundancies!
Is that 2.5% for the "efficiencies" on top of the previously offered 2%? I thought the previous offer was 2+1% so it wouldn't make sense for even less to be offered.

That said, I would be surprised if even 4.5% were enough to get that sort of change over the line. The loss of Sunday premia (even if Sundays inside is somehow magically able to be done without any increase in the 35 hour week...) would surely cost most people far more than 4.5%.
 

Thumper1127

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Could you clarify please?

NI went up by 1.25% on both the standard and additional rates, 12% to 13.25% and 2% to 3.25% respectively.

What is the 1.5% social care levy please?
I haven’t got the precise details but it is aimed at care for the elderly etc. We all hear about the greater burdens on Social Care, especially as the proportion of elderly increases and people live longer. Successive governments have all failed to grasp the nettle until now. Whether it is the right way to do it is another matter (I’m not saying it is or isn’t) but at least something had been done at last, although the timing probably couldn’t be worse, hence the changes to the threshold from 6th July which shifts the balance more towards higher earners. Those on £30k or less will actually pay less than they did before the April increase. I’ve no idea of your salary, and neither should I, but many lower earners will be better off. But that, of course, is totally separate to any pay negotiations. I only made my original post because there seemed to be a lot of heat on the forum and insufficient fact.
 

Bertie the bus

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Is that 2.5% for the "efficiencies" on top of the previously offered 2%? I thought the previous offer was 2+1% so it wouldn't make sense for even less to be offered.

That said, I would be surprised if even 4.5% were enough to get that sort of change over the line. The loss of Sunday premia (even if Sundays inside is somehow magically able to be done without any increase in the 35 hour week...) would surely cost most people far more than 4.5%.
This whole dispute is getting hard to follow but wasn't the 2% + 1% the Network Rail offer? The offer described above obviously relates to TOC employees.
 

pt_mad

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Is that 2.5% for the "efficiencies" on top of the previously offered 2%? I thought the previous offer was 2+1% so it wouldn't make sense for even less to be offered.

That said, I would be surprised if even 4.5% were enough to get that sort of change over the line. The loss of Sunday premia (even if Sundays inside is somehow magically able to be done without any increase in the 35 hour week...) would surely cost most people far more than 4.5%.

The proposals posted on this forum by someone many pages ago suggested that Sundays would remain on top of the basic week, but would be non optional, i.e. staff are effectively committed to working set Sundays as overtime. Again this would seem to raise the issue of whether staff would be paid sick pay for these Sundays should they be sick, or whether Sundays can be booked off as annual leave like any other non optional day.
 

Watershed

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This whole dispute is getting hard to follow but wasn't the 2% + 1% the Network Rail offer? The offer described above obviously relates to TOC employees.
I would have thought that even the government, as hare-brained as it is, would know that offering 0.5% less - for a deal that involves far greater concessions on T&Cs - is utterly untenable.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Latest rumour is that the most recent offer was:
2.5% pay rise but with the strings of...
  • Accepting DCO (Driver Controlled operation) at every train operating company.
  • Sundays inside working week
  • No rule out of some form of Fire & Rehire for Guards
  • Accepting closures of every ticket office in this country.
  • No guarantee no of Compulsary Redundancies!
I suspect most of that is to enable the start of negotiations on DCO/Sundays/ticket offices etc, not to endorse full implementation which has not yet been defined.
A no redundancies guarantee is impossible in the present climate, as the RMT is well aware.
 

Thumper1127

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This whole dispute is getting hard to follow but wasn't the 2% + 1% the Network Rail offer? The offer described above obviously relates to TOC employees.
That prompts a question from me I’ve been meaning to ask. Normally RMT would have to negotiate with individual TOCs. Is this the case in this dispute or are they negotiating with the RDG who are working to collectively represent the TOCs? If the latter is the case it drives a coach and horses through government arguments that the RMT and companies must negotiate and it’s not for them. For one, I don’t think Government should be at the table but they need to come clean and say “this is the envelope the industry had to work in, this is what the government is prepared to underwrite”. Visibility and transparency, not smoke and mirrors.
 

muz379

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The proposals posted on this forum by someone many pages ago suggested that Sundays would remain on top of the basic week, but would be non optional, i.e. staff are effectively committed to working set Sundays as overtime. Again this would seem to raise the issue of whether staff would be paid sick pay for these Sundays should they be sick, or whether Sundays can be booked off as annual leave like any other non optional day.
But Committed sundays are already in the T's & C's at many TOC's and we still have sunday resourcing issues , one of the big issues in this dispute and with this offer is that it apears the DFT really do not have any operational understanding .

The only way committed sundays would work to provide coverage is if there was also an adaqeute number of Spare sundays in the links to cover the drivers/guards who are off sick , off the job , on annual leave as per below . But then you end up paying some people sundays to be unutilized spare in some instances .

In answer to the question when they are committed overtime you arent paid sick pay or anything else for them and you cannot book them off with your annual leave either . Where I work we do not have to do a booked sunday at the end of a week of Booked leave though or inbetween our 2 week booked leave in summer .
 

skyhigh

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A no redundancies guarantee is impossible in the present climate, as the RMT is well aware.
If I'm honest in my opinion the redundancy issue has been completely mishandled. Back when voluntary severance was floated as an option, I know several ticket office staff who put in an application for it. Ay my TOC not a single ticket office employee was granted severance with the reason given being that current staffing levels were lower than required in their plans going forwards. Fast forward a few months and now the government is throwing around ideas such as closure of all offices and compulsory redundancies.
 

pt_mad

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I suspect most of that is to enable the start of negotiations on DCO/Sundays/ticket offices etc, not to endorse full implementation which has not yet been defined.
A no redundancies guarantee is impossible in the present climate, as the RMT is well aware.

Can it be clarified, by
Latest rumour is that the most recent offer was:
2.5% pay rise but with the strings of...
  • Accepting DCO (Driver Controlled operation) at every train operating company.
  • Sundays inside working week
  • No rule out of some form of Fire & Rehire for Guards
  • Accepting closures of every ticket office in this country.
  • No guarantee no of Compulsary Redundancies!

Can it be clarified, does Sundays inside the working week mean Sundays as one of the shifts within an (example 40 hour) working week? Or does it mean it remains extra but staff are absolutely committed to working Sunday as an extra day where it is rostered?
 

dk1

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Can it be clarified, by


Can it be clarified, does Sundays inside the working week mean Sundays as one of the shifts within an (example 40 hour) working week? Or does it mean it remains extra but staff are absolutely committed to working Sunday as an extra day where it is rostered?
40 hours!!!! Certainly not. It would have to be within 35 if incorporated into the working week.
 

pt_mad

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But Committed sundays are already in the T's & C's at many TOC's and we still have sunday resourcing issues , one of the big issues in this dispute and with this offer is that it apears the DFT really do not have any operational understanding .

The only way committed sundays would work to provide coverage is if there was also an adaqeute number of Spare sundays in the links to cover the drivers/guards who are off sick , off the job , on annual leave as per below . But then you end up paying some people sundays to be unutilized spare in some instances .

In answer to the question when they are committed overtime you arent paid sick pay or anything else for them and you cannot book them off with your annual leave either . Where I work we do not have to do a booked sunday at the end of a week of Booked leave though or inbetween our 2 week booked leave in summer .

I understand totally how it works at the moment.

The proposals which a poster posted last week as a PDF document in this forum which was called offer to the RMT, stated that Sundays are extra on the working week but must be worked unless cover is found.

If someone at present is unavailable for a Sunday and reverts to not available for admin purposes, presumably it would become either sick, leave or unauthorised absence if these Sundays absolutely became part of a mandatory shift pattern. There must be some change proposed otherwise it wouldn't have been stated in the offer surely.

40 hours!!!! Certainly not. It would have to be within 35 if incorporated into the working week.
This is where the pure confusion lies. Go back to this thread for posts made Monday last week, where someone posted the actual offer on the forum as a PDF.

Edit: The poster posted it on page 81 of this thread and attached it about half way down.

It said Sunday would be an extra day but must be worked unless cover is found. That would not fall within what we presume to be a basic working week. Mick lynch himself also said on question time its proposed the basic working week increases by 5 hours to 40 hours.

So the question here is, is it reasonable to assume that if it is desired the basic week increases to 40 hours as Mick Lynch said, with the Sunday extra but absolutely having to be worked on top? That seems a lot of hours compared to now.
 
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baz962

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Do you know what percentage it went up? I honestly have no idea how much NI I pay. It’s just one of those deductions always on the payslip & I haven’t a clue how much each month. You are very observant.
I went on to the which site earlier. I'm paying roughly an extra £47 every four weeks than last year. When the new ni limit hits in July , I will be around £29 ish better off than since April . But still £18 worse than last year.
 

HST274

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Messages
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Location
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Latest rumour is that the most recent offer was:
2.5% pay rise but with the strings of...
  • Accepting DCO (Driver Controlled operation) at every train operating company.
  • Sundays inside working week
  • No rule out of some form of Fire & Rehire for Guards
  • Accepting closures of every ticket office in this country.
  • No guarantee no of Compulsary Redundancies!
That's just awful. The idea of only the driver on a train (obviously the case in some tocs) always makes me feel a little uncomfortable, in terms of safety, though I guess most wouldn't notice if they changed to customer reps instead.
Sundays will obviously be a very bad taste in the mouth.
I suppose the third point comes with the first.
The closure of every office is stupidity. I can understand closing them in smaller/unproductive stations, but I know in my area there a regularly queues of people looking to buy from the ticket office over available tvm.
The fourth point is the most idiotic point. If they guaranteed no redundancies, a deal likely could have been pushed across the line by now.
 

winks

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Messages
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Latest rumour is that the most recent offer was:
2.5% pay rise but with the strings of...
  • Accepting DCO (Driver Controlled operation) at every train operating company.
  • Sundays inside working week
  • No rule out of some form of Fire & Rehire for Guards
  • Accepting closures of every ticket office in this country.
  • No guarantee no of Compulsary Redundancies!
Fire and rehire of Guards…? There’s no way RMT would accept that !
 

sciisfun

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I'd just like to weigh in on strike dates, I wouldn't rule out the commonwealth games. The RMT keep talking about us (psv/bus) striking then, and we've been offered what I thought was a generous 6 month deal as it is. If they combine bus strikes and rail, they might stand a chance at crippling it.
 

Horizon22

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And there wouldn't any problems with that.

Perhaps where the issue lies is that it's desired Sunday becomes part of the normal working week, but not part of someone's basic hours, which is the general interpretation of the proposals.

I.e. the basic railway week is increased to 40 hours, plus a mandatory Sunday at 8 hours.

That would mean effectively a basic week of 48 hours, (4 days of approx 10 hours say for station staff) plus a Sunday at 8 hours, which is the limit which can be forced afaik due to working time regulations.

Now if staff actually were rostered a Sunday within the basic 40 hour week as one of their basic days and not as extra, that may be seen by some as more manageable with regards potential fatigue build up and work life balance.

If Sundays are to be a normal day as any other, why can't the proposals just be to hire the staff needed to roster them as a normal day of their basic hours and not as an extra day still?

These proposals would also raise the question whether staff can go sick on a Sunday and be paid sick pay and return the next day?

I don't think that's the intention at all in reality (no matter what might be insinuated). Rosters would obviously need to rebuilt to accomodate the 35 (or 40) hours and yes extra staff will be required. This is where the issue arises; the government wants to have their cake and eat it too by getting Sundays inside with no appreciation as to whether that leaves the rosters and diagrams legal, but they haven't graspsed that final details of that.
 

baz962

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I understand totally how it works at the moment.

The proposals which a poster posted last week as a PDF document in this forum which was called offer to the RMT, stated that Sundays are extra on the working week but must be worked unless cover is found.

If someone at present is unavailable for a Sunday and reverts to not available for admin purposes, presumably it would become either sick, leave or unauthorised absence if these Sundays absolutely became part of a mandatory shift pattern. There must be some change proposed otherwise it wouldn't have been stated in the offer surely.


This is where the pure confusion lies. Go back to this thread for posts made Monday last week, where someone posted the actual offer on the forum as a PDF.

Edit: The poster posted it on page 81 of this thread and attached it about half way down.

It said Sunday would be an extra day but must be worked unless cover is found. That would not fall within what we presume to be a basic working week. Mick lynch himself also said on question time its proposed the basic working week increases by 5 hours to 40 hours.

So the question here is, is it reasonable to assume that if it is desired the basic week increases to 40 hours as Mick Lynch said, with the Sunday extra but absolutely having to be worked on top? That seems a lot of hours compared to now.
So how does it work, regards the extra five hours. Let's say a guard is on 40k and they get a 3% raise. That's an extra £1200 a year. The 40k works out at £22 an hour over a 35 hour week and so if you paid them £22 times five, that's £110 a week or around £5700 a year. Or would they get £5700 and 3% .
 

Horizon22

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Fire and rehire of Guards…? There’s no way RMT would accept that !

As it says "latest rumour" - I would suggest their might be some elements of truth in this post, but some of it rather more speculative.
 

dk1

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I went on to the which site earlier. I'm paying roughly an extra £47 every four weeks than last year. When the new ni limit hits in July , I will be around £29 ish better off than since April . But still £18 worse than last year.
My attempt at working it out was £750-£900 annually.
 

Thumper1127

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I went on to the which site earlier. I'm paying roughly an extra £47 every four weeks than last year. When the new ni limit hits in July , I will be around £29 ish better off than since April . But still £18 worse than last year.
Yes, that’s the point I was trying to get over. For anyone below certain earnings they will be better off than the 2021/22 tax year but above a certain level it will be more than 2021/22 but not as bad as the initial increase we’ve just had. Lower earners will gain, higher earners will not but will “enjoy” a lower level of increase than if the threshold had not been raised. There is often a clamour for “the better off should pay more” and this change does that. Although I’m not overly happy that I will still be paying more NI than I was last year I take it on the chin in the knowledge that those on lower salaries, with less disposable income (if any at all!) will benefit.

My attempt at working it out was £750-£900 annually.
Better or worse? If worse, you must either be on a very good salary or you’ve done it wrong. If better off, tell us the secret!
 

Mintona

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Just bite the bullet, do it properly and bring Sundays inside as part of a four day week. Three guaranteed rest days a week would do wonders for fatigue.

Just making them committed wouldn’t really change anything, plenty of crew have that already and there are still staff shortages.
 

dk1

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Yes, that’s the point I was trying to get over. For anyone below certain earnings they will be better off than the 2021/22 tax year but above a certain level it will be more than 2021/22 but not as bad as the initial increase we’ve just had. Lower earners will gain, higher earners will not but will “enjoy” a lower level of increase than if the threshold had not been raised. There is often a clamour for “the better off should pay more” and this change does that. Although I’m not overly happy that I will still be paying more NI than I was last year I take it on the chin in the knowledge that those on lower salaries, with less disposable income (if any at all!) will benefit.


Better or worse? If worse, you must either be on a very good salary or you’ve done it wrong. If better off, tell us the secret!
I probably got it hopelessly wrong haha. Oh well. Loving Diana at Glasto.

Perhaps it was £75-90. Bloody decimal points.
 
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Need2

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No it wasn’t. It was expressly for the NHS for the first two years to help clear Covid related backlogs and then it is meant to be for social care. Whether there will be sufficient visible that it is being used for that is another matter although my understanding is that from the third year the 1.5% will be separately listed on your payslip as a Social Care Levy.
I know, it was a thinly veiled dig!
Still, does NI contributions go solely to the NHS like road tax does? Ha ha ha
 

Chester1

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Could you clarify please?

NI went up by 1.25% on both the standard and additional rates, 12% to 13.25% and 2% to 3.25% respectively.

What is the 1.5% social care levy please?

The NI increase is (technically) temporary until the social care levy is introduced. The NI increase provides a temporary boast to NHS budget to reduce covid related backlogs. The (permanent) Social Care levy will replace the temporary NI increase and this money will go into social care budgets.

This is complicated by two factors. In July the NI threshold jumps from an annualised rate of £9880 to match the income tax threshold of £12,570. This saves anyone earning more than the new threshold £356 a year. For 70% of people this is greater than the cost of the temporary NI increase and then the permanent social care levy. Only RMT workers in top 30% of national earners can argue that the changes damage their income. Guards will be paying less NI from 6th July than they were before 6th April.

The second complicating factor is that the basic rate of income tax in England (and probably Wales and Northern Ireland) will drop from 20% to 19% in April 2024.
 
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The problem with moving up north is the lack of jobs...

London and the South East is very dense with companies and offices. This means there are a lot of very well paid skilled jobs.

The north has much less of this, relying on blue collared jobs, and low skilled jobs like retail. That is why it is so cheap, there's no demand to live there because there are no jobs.

The south is so expensive because of all the jobs
Eh? There are plenty of jobs up North.
Leeds, Manchester, Newcastle, York. All have well paying jobs if you have the right skills.
 
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