Railcard up to 30 years old, is it only available on a smart phone ?

[Clip]

"Large" in capacity, not (necessarily) physical dimensions. The energy density of Lithium batteries has not changed significantly in a decade, so a decent (as in 5000mAh or more, actual capacity not "Chinese eBay seller claimed" capacity) is still roughly the same size as always.
.

So whats the issue then if the battery pack is not 'large' in size

And you can also lose a phone (or have it stolen, since it's almost certainly the most attractive-to-thieves item on your person; even your wallet is likely to have less immediate value to a petty thief), so an "m-ticket" has all the same disadvantages as a real ticket, along with the additional problems of battery life, inability to use automated barriers, the possibility that a software update or error could render your expensive ticket unusable, etc

But you are basing your whole argument against digital cards as losing a ticket then - very weak, once again.

 

[Clip]

They sound awful don’t they? Wonder why the target market keep demanding it then. Maybe they just find it more convenient or just prefer it (!).

.

I know, its amazing isn't it - just look at how many people are using their phone or indeed watch to pay for things now - including travel!!!

 

[rmt4ever]

Born from about 1982 to the mid 1990s, I think. After that is Gen Z, I forget what it's called. Basically people who came of age around 2000-2010.

This makes me gen-X and my sister millennial, yet she's actually hugely more technologically conservative than me. Hence the "cusper" thing some are coming up with.

So apparently I’m a millennial .. being 31 yrs old..

But this railcard won’t be for me will it? Heard you must be under 30..

Anyway despite me getting the happy new via this forum that I’m apparently a millennial (stupid term), I always buy paper tickets and refuse to have contactless and always use cash.

 

[Clip]

Some of these battery packs look so cumbersome too and most seem to offer higher than 5000 that mallard speaks about above

 

[Be3G]

I'm a millennial who works in IT, and the idea of having a digital-only railcard makes me uneasy, but I'm willing to overlook it in this case as it sounds like it's just for the trial. (Sadly I'll likely be too old to purchase one if/when it becomes a permanent fixture in UK rail ticketing.)

I've never lost a train ticket/travel document, nor I think have I ever let my phone completely run out of battery whilst out. But not being completely smartphone-dependent (e.g. I use my brain to help me get around more than I do smartphone apps) I have let it get very low, and that tends to be more the case on long journeys. It's also happened on at least one occasion due to a battery-sucking technical glitch with the phone. I don't routinely carry around an extra battery pack, wall charger etc. as I like to travel light. I'm also wary of technical issues with apps – do any of us have an app on our phones/tablets that has never ever gone wrong or exhibited at least one bug in its lifetime?

So for me personally, the slightly added inconvenience of carrying around and remembering one extra piece of plastic is completely outweighed by the worry about having to ensure my phone's battery lasts to the end of a long/delayed rail journey or of the phone/app playing up. I'm always very aware that whilst we'd all hope discretion to be shown, the reality is that as per the NRCoC etc. there is no valid excuse for a passenger to not present a valid railcard when asked.

Brief side note: there was one occasion that I went in to uni with my phone on quite a low battery because I thought it wouldn't matter as I wouldn't be using it much. Only, it did matter, because later in the day by which point it was critically low I got locked in the library…

 

[cuccir]

I've never lost a train ticket/travel document, nor I think have I ever let my phone completely run out of battery whilst out

Likewise, it makes me wonder what all these people on this thread are doing with their phone/tickets!!

I'm not a fan of mobile tickets because of ticket gates. As a commuter I see plenty of people waving their phones in frustration at the scanner, waiting for it to read it; until this technology is as reliable as sticking a ticket in the gate, I'd be loathe to use it.

If it's digital-only for the trial period that seems fine, but it'd be a shame if it and other railcards went that way permanently.

 

[maniacmartin]

This shouldn't have to be an either/or. I see no reason why, when buying the railcard, you cannot be issued an app version and also a physical counterpart, both equally valid. If they both contained a photo of the railcard holder, there'd be little risk of 2 people using the railcard at the same time.

I'm a millennial and I work in IT, and I would choose a physical railcard over installing an app. An app is likely to use disk space and battery and could malfunction. If the app used GPS it would drain the battery even more. Also, corporations nowadays are using technology against us more and more often, with apps using data to download adverts, or invading privacy such as sending data such as GPS co-ordinates, address book or whatnot back to the mothership

One way that would persuade me to use digital railcards however, is if the railcard was issued using the standard ticket/wallet feature of the relevant Smartphone platform (such as in Apple Wallet), rather than an app that demands allsorts of unnecessary permissions else it refuses to install.

 

[takno]

Likewise, it makes me wonder what all these people on this thread are doing with their phone/tickets!!

My phone dropped the last 20% of its charge in about 15 minutes last night while it was in my pocket. No idea what caused it, I'd guess a rogue app, or possibly it got into an authentication battle with the wifi which seems to drain battery randomly (particularly on trains). Either way there is no way on earth I'd trust both my phone and the rail industry's app to continue to display a railcard throughout a multiple hour train journey without a cast iron guarantee of access to both a power socket and a charger. I'd also want a fallback for when the app decided to arbitrarily crash and refuse to restart/sync with the server/update/whatever the needlessly complicated tech wants to do this week

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm a millennial and I work in IT, and I would choose a physical railcard over installing an app. An app is likely to use disk space and battery and could malfunction. If the app used GPS it would drain the battery even more. Also, corporations nowadays are using technology against us more and more often, with apps using data to download adverts, or invading privacy such as sending data such as GPS co-ordinates, address book or whatnot back to the mothership

Disk space? What kind of phone are you using, a Dom Joly-esk handset.......

One way that would persuade me to use digital railcards however, is if the railcard was issued using the standard ticket/wallet feature of the relevant Smartphone platform (such as in Apple Wallet), rather than an app that demands allsorts of unnecessary permissions else it refuses to install.

Looking at the 4 main travel apps I have on my (Android) smartphone, memory sizes and permissions are as follows:

MyMCard (WY Metro) - 44.91MB - Permissions: Storage / Telephone
National Rail - 24.67MB - Permissions: Calendar / Location
Northern - 25.45MB - Permissions: None
TPEXpress - 96.56MB(!) - Permissions: Location

Now quite why the MCard wants access to the telephone functionality I'll never know, but it doesn't ever use it so I may ask this of the devs. Otherwise needing location is OK for me, I allow Google to tell me where I am (sometimes incorrectly I have to say, but I never get fooled!), calendar functions are fine as it can be useful to drop in dates / times of journeys especially when I have a fair few booked in for meetings, social events etc, and storage is fair enough if it is going to securely store ticket data (providing of course there is a sever back-up!). The TPE seems horribly bloated memory size for what it is, although to be fair it does include functionality for the WiFi entertainment system that is being rolled out so it could be that.

But I do get what you mean, apps shouldn't need all sorts of strange permissions when all they really need is data, NFC, storage and perhaps calendar when allowed. (Oh and I am a 40-something, ZX Spectrum generation!!!!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is needed is true e-ticketing - the ticket lives in a database on the TOC's server with a name and phone associated with it. You can then either produce ID to validate the ticket, or you can produce the phone it's tagged to. It is identified by a 2D barcode which can be shown on any media - phone, bit of A4, tattoo... (OK I was joking about the last one)

 

[Be3G]

One way that would persuade me to use digital railcards however, is if the railcard was issued using the standard ticket/wallet feature of the relevant Smartphone platform (such as in Apple Wallet), rather than an app that demands allsorts of unnecessary permissions else it refuses to install.

I like your thinking with this. I don't think having the railcard available in Apple Wallet etc. would convert me to the extent that it would you (as I'd still have battery concerns) but I do wish more companies/organisations would embrace proper digital wallet systems. I have no interest in using digital versions of store loyalty cards because they nearly always require their own dedicated bug-laden app each, but I would be persuaded to use them if compatible with nice, simple, reliable Apple Wallet (other digital wallets are available etc. etc.).

 

[rmt4ever]

That’s good because nobody is asking you to *accept* them. Though of course you might have to use them.

It’ll probably work out as well for you as that time you turned up at Newcastle Airport with only your Amex. (I trust with the Amex you’re refusing chip and pin and only using merchants that use one of those old imprinters, nothing wrong with them, etc etc)

I’ve saked AMEX off, and Barclaycard as they tried to make me convert to contactless so told em to stick it.

 

[Bantamzen]

I’ve saked AMEX off, and Barclaycard as they tried to make me convert to contactless so told em to stick it.

This reminds me very much of a conversation I had with a local over in Hawai'i when my wife and I where there on holiday in 2015. The US was about to start to roll out Chip & PIN credit cards nationwide, and stores were busy installing new readers to be able to accept them. However this one local guy in a bar was adamant that in no way would he ever accept a new Chip & PIN card, even though his was due to expire shortly after the rollout was due to begin. I pointed out that his CC company would send a new one with the chip installed & that he really wouldn't have a choice. Funnily enough he said he would tell them to "stick it", and even went so far as to say he would rather starve than use one, though he didn't explain why.

But here's the thing, as new technology comes on line it eventually comes the default. So whilst customers of banks & CC companies can current opt out of contactless, there will come a point where it simply isn't worth their money distributing two types of cards and so contactless cards will become the norm. Of course whilst Chip & PIN readers are still available, people have the option not to use the contactless feature but in time as more people get used to contactless so the risk increases that eventually PIN readers themselves may become defunct. I can see a time not too far into the future whereby NFC mobiles will become the primary method of small payments by the majority of the public, with Chip & PIN cards being used only for larger transactions, and even then I can see a time where this will become as quaint and rare as paying by cheques.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see why anyone has a problem with contactless. The anti-fraud system is "if you say you didn't spend it, it gets charged back to the retailer" - same as Direct Debit. OK, if you did that too often you'd find yourself banned (and it'd be criminal fraud in itself of course), but for anyone else it's just like cash that you get back if someone nicks your wallet.

Retailers will put up with that as just another form of "pilferage" because it saves them staff time (which costs) and reduces cash handling (which costs - hugely).

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I’ll never accept digital tickets or railcards

The furthest I'll go is smartcards, since I won't ever needs too use a smartphone and I have no idea how to operate one either and this is coming from someone who is in their late 20's.

What is the criteria for being a “millennial” ?

To me the criteria for being a millennial is someone who was born from the 1st January 1995 and up to the 31st December 2005. Prior to that its Gen X or Gen Y, I regard myself as a late Gen X'er, early Gen Y'er since I was born in 1989.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's unusually narrow, most definitions start it at 1982. A millennial is someone who came of age in the 2000s (i.e. became an adult or something approximating to it), not was born in them.

I'd say 1995 was the edge of Gen-Z - people who for all of their conscious lives (I do have odd almost photographic "point" memories from age 2 and a bit up, but not many) have had mobile phones and the Internet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Z

 

[Be3G]

Having never had a digital railcard before, I've just found something rather troublesome from reading through the 26–30 railcard FAQs. Apparently the railcard only remains valid for 24 hours after the app was last given an internet connection. That might not seem like much of an issue, but combine that with an Oyster loaded with a railcard discount, and it's more problematic. That means I've got to remember to open up the railcard app and wait for it to do whatever it wants to do any day that I want to use the tube in case I'm inspected below ground.* So say I'm travelling by bus somewhere and make a spur-of-the-minute decision to jump on the tube because of a nasty traffic jam – I've then got to consciously remember to fiddle with the railcard app first.

As the Oyster PAYG discount was one of the biggest attractions to me for this railcard, it's genuinely making me think twice.

* Yes there is WiFi available on the tube, but in my experience it's often more of a faff than it's worth, if it works at all, and I'm not sure all stations have it anyway.

 

[AlterEgo]

Apparently the railcard only remains valid for 24 hours after the app was last given an internet connection. That might not seem like much of an issue, but combine that with an Oyster loaded with a railcard discount, and it's more problematic. That means I've got to remember to open up the railcard app and wait for it to do whatever it wants to do any day that I want to use the tube in case I'm inspected below ground.* So say I'm travelling by bus somewhere and make a spur-of-the-minute decision to jump on the tube because of a nasty traffic jam – I've then got to consciously remember to fiddle with the railcard app first.

Surely your app will be connected to the Internet even when offline - unless you actively change the settings. That just means you need *a* signal, no need to worry about Tube WiFi.

 

[Rover]

This is a very interesting debate about paper tickets v mobile ones and there are pros and cons for each. Personally, and I 'm a baby-boomer, I prefer a paper/card ticket I can hold in my hand because that's what I've been used to all my life, I don't have a smartphone. I actually prefer the old Edmonson rectangular card tickets but that's probably just a bit of nostalgia.

However, the decisions made as to whether railcards (or even tickets themselves) should be one or the other or both will come down to implementation costs and revenue generation, not whether you're more likely to have battery failure or lose it down the toilet!

 

[Be3G]

Surely your app will be connected to the Internet even when offline - unless you actively change the settings. That just means you need *a* signal, no need to worry about Tube WiFi.

I use an iPhone, whose operating system is very strict about not letting apps do anything in the background unless they absolutely need to (a behaviour which I'm normally very happy about as I don't like loads of apps whirring away in the background), so I don't think I'd want to rely on the app having been given the chance to refresh without my intervention – not when penalty fares etc. are at stake.

 

[AlterEgo]

I use an iPhone, whose operating system is very strict about not letting apps do anything in the background unless they absolutely need to (a behaviour which I'm normally very happy about as I don't like loads of apps whirring away in the background), so I don't think I'd want to rely on the app having been given the chance to refresh without my intervention – not when penalty fares etc. are at stake.

Background app refresh is set to “on” by default on iPhones, so they can’t be that strict surely?

 

[Be3G]

Ah yes but it's much more subtle than that – what that switch really says is ‘let the iPhone refresh an app if it believes it's worth doing considering network connectivity and battery life’. These days iPhones use machine learning to decide when and how often to refresh apps, which means that if you don't use an app regularly it'll stop refreshing it even if the facility to do so is switched on.

(What I don't understand is why the iPhone can't freely refresh apps when plugged in and on WiFi, but that's a question for Apple, not this forum…)

 

[rmt4ever]

Sorry .. maybe stupid question... what if you are 16-30 and don’t have a smartphone..

You are instantly excluded from getting this railcard ?

 

[Darandio]

Sorry .. maybe stupid question... what if you are 16-30 and don’t have a smartphone..

You are instantly excluded from getting this railcard ?

Effectively yes. We can have another 3 page rant if you like, the floor is yours.....

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Sorry .. maybe stupid question... what if you are 16-30 and don’t have a smartphone..

You are instantly excluded from getting this railcard ?

That is ******g daft if one doesn't have a smartphone. I'd be happy if it was a physical printed version. It appears that I'll be split ticketing until I'm 60 or dead whichever comes sooner.

 

[infobleep]

This reminds me very much of a conversation I had with a local over in Hawai'i when my wife and I where there on holiday in 2015. The US was about to start to roll out Chip & PIN credit cards nationwide, and stores were busy installing new readers to be able to accept them. However this one local guy in a bar was adamant that in no way would he ever accept a new Chip & PIN card, even though his was due to expire shortly after the rollout was due to begin. I pointed out that his CC company would send a new one with the chip installed & that he really wouldn't have a choice. Funnily enough he said he would tell them to "stick it", and even went so far as to say he would rather starve than use one, though he didn't explain why.

But here's the thing, as new technology comes on line it eventually comes the default. So whilst customers of banks & CC companies can current opt out of contactless, there will come a point where it simply isn't worth their money distributing two types of cards and so contactless cards will become the norm. Of course whilst Chip & PIN readers are still available, people have the option not to use the contactless feature but in time as more people get used to contactless so the risk increases that eventually PIN readers themselves may become defunct. I can see a time not too far into the future whereby NFC mobiles will become the primary method of small payments by the majority of the public, with Chip & PIN cards being used only for larger transactions, and even then I can see a time where this will become as quaint and rare as paying by cheques.

Chip and pin readers won't go because contactless is only up to £30. Otherwise you'd have people doing transactions of £700 on a stolen card, rather than £30 on a stolen card.

 

[Haywain]

That is ******g daft if one doesn't have a smartphone. I'd be happy if it was a physical printed version. It appears that I'll be split ticketing until I'm 60 or dead whichever comes sooner.

Or get a smart phone, the choice is yours. Would the railcard save you enough to pay for the phone? If yes get both, if no then don't bother.

 

[rmt4ever]

Lol even Tesco can give me a physical plastic clubcard, for free.

So why can’t these clowns for thirty quid ?

 

[30907]

Lol even Tesco can give me a physical plastic clubcard, for free.

So why can’t these clowns for thirty quid ?

See post #35. It is a geographically limited trial. If rolled out nationally it will be available on plastic.
P

 

[SS4]

Lol even Tesco can give me a physical plastic clubcard, for free.

So why can’t these clowns for thirty quid ?

You are the product when you use clubcards - each of your purchases are tracked and used to create a profile about you. In other words it's in tesco's interests to make it easy for you to use a clubcard.

With a railcard they're not getting extra information if they issue a paper or plastic one and indeed smartphone data is easier to analyse

Speaking of smartphones is there anyone aged 26-30 on this forum who does not have one?