Railway 'day'

Status
Not open for further replies.

bignosemac

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2009
Messages
4,985
I'm looking for some clarification on the railway 'day' and it's new(ish) end time of 0429 and how that's interpreted for Off Peak ticket validity.

I note that the latest Avantix Traveller still uses 0230 and mentions the rule about 'still travelling' when using Off Peak tickets.

National Rail Enquiries says that Off Peak tickets are valid until 0429. Now is that valid to start your journey, or must all travel be completed by 0429?

Off-Peak Single and Off-Peak Day (Single and Return) tickets must be used on the date shown on the ticket and up to 04:29 the following morning.
Booking engines, it would appear, will only sell Off Peak Tickets for services starting before 0230.

If I turn up at Reading for the 0354 to Slough (arrival 0415) should I not be sold the Off Peak Day Single?
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Indigo2

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2010
Messages
3,637
Location
Reading
Reading to Slough CDS has restriction W3: "By any train except those timed to depart Mondays to Fridays before 0900".

This is not valid for travel between midnight and 09:00 on the date on the ticket. It is valid from 09:00 up until 04:30 on the next day (and all travel must be completed by 04:30).

So for the journey given, a CDS dated the previous day would be valid, but not a CDS dated the current day. I asked on here before if you could ask the booking office to sell you a ticket dated the previous day, and people thought it wasn't possible...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh and the electronic version of restriction W3 used by the booking engines probably differs from the published, public version (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/CDS_W3.pdf). This seems to be a pretty common situation.
 

bignosemac

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2009
Messages
4,985
So it looks like you have to buy a ticket before 2359 for travel at 0354....

What if you buy online specifying a service before 0230 but actually use it at 0354?

:roll:
 

bignosemac

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2009
Messages
4,985
If the Off Peak ticket is valid at 0354, then surely it should be sold at say 0300. From a TVM. Bet they ain't programmed to allow that though.

That can't be right.
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,838
If the Off Peak ticket is valid at 0354, then surely it should be sold at say 0300. From a TVM. Bet they ain't programmed to allow that though.

That can't be right.
The Off-Peak ticket for the previous day is valid to 0429, the Off-Peak dated for travel that day usually isn't valid at that time of the morning.

You can't expect a back-dated ticket from a TVM, when even ticket offices can't do it.
 

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
Ticket offices must offer for sale the cheapest ticket available for immediate travel, so if the cheapest ticket is one with yesterdays date on it and it is valid for travel then they must offer to sell it.

IMO it is a breach of the impartiality rules not to offer such a ticket regardless of the physical restraints.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
 

34D

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2011
Messages
6,031
Location
Yorkshire
Ticket offices must offer for sale the cheapest ticket available for immediate travel, so if the cheapest ticket is one with yesterdays date on it and it is valid for travel then they must offer to sell it.

IMO it is a breach of the impartiality rules not to offer such a ticket regardless of the physical restraints.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
Quite. Also, I'd like to see someone order online an offpeak ticket for thu 1st March, and use it on the 03:54 train. Don't see why it wouldn't be valid tbh.

I'd like to see a source for the assertion that such a ticket isn't valid from 00:00 to 09:30, rather than 04:30 to 09:30.
 

bignosemac

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2009
Messages
4,985
I agree wintonian. If a ticket is valid for travel until a certain time then it should, to my mind, be available for sale up to that time.

Online sales are nearly right, but they still appear to using the old 0230 cut off point.

If we're agreed that a ticket purchased before 2359 from a manned station or TVM is valid, or one purchased online, selecting a service before 0230 but using it later, is also valid, then systems to allow purchase from a TVM or, (if open) manned POS should also allow. I appreciate that there are few trains on the network between 2359 and 0429, but if a particular ticket's validity allows travel Off Peak, then Off Peak tickets should be sold.

If purchase at a station/TVM after 0000 is not possible then this should be made clear.

Now, I could fall back on NRCoC and only purchase a ticket up to the value of the one valid for my journey. That presupposes I know the correct fare and is a bit of faff. How does one go about paying the balance on a DOO to Slough arriving 0415? Send FGW a cheque?
 
Last edited:

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
22,517
If purchase at a station/TVM after 0000 is not possible then this should be made clear.
If it wasn't possible to buy a ticket after 0000 (and dated yesterday) when the day finished at 0230, there's probably zero likelihood of the change to 0430 suddenly making it possible.

I disagree with this being an 'impartiality issue' as well. As long as all ticket selling outlets act in the same way, there can't be a question about impartiality...
 

Indigo2

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2010
Messages
3,637
Location
Reading
I'd like to see a source for the assertion that such a ticket isn't valid from 00:00 to 09:30, rather than 04:30 to 09:30.
I gave a link to the advertised restriction on the NRE site above:
Restriction W3 said:
By any train except those timed to depart before 09:00.
I think that's pretty clear - 03:54 is definitely before 09:00. Unless the railway day starts at 04:30? But I don't think anyone has ever suggested that as a possibility.
 

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
If it wasn't possible to buy a ticket after 0000 (and dated yesterday) when the day finished at 0230, there's probably zero likelihood of the change to 0430 suddenly making it possible.

I disagree with this being an 'impartiality issue' as well. As long as all ticket selling outlets act in the same way, there can't be a question about impartiality...
It's not an impariality issue per se but the phrase "cheapest ticket available for immediate travel" comes from those rules.
 

bignosemac

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2009
Messages
4,985
I agree on the point about impartiality. That doesn't really figure in this scenario.

What I do disagree with though is the fact that someone can legitimately travel with an Off Peak ticket sold to them before 2359 (or 0230 online, selecting an earlier service than the one they intend to catch) but someone else has to buy an Anytime fare because they haven't purchased their ticket hours before.

Off Peak validity refers to the ticket. It should not apply to the time it was sold.
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,784
I don't think it has ever been defined when the railway day starts, only when it finishes.
 

34D

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2011
Messages
6,031
Location
Yorkshire
I gave a link to the advertised restriction on the NRE site above:

I think that's pretty clear - 03:54 is definitely before 09:00. Unless the railway day starts at 04:30? But I don't think anyone has ever suggested that as a possibility.
Why are you assuming the bar is 00:00 to 09:00 and not 23:00 to 09:00 for example?

Surely the day _does_ start at 04:30 though? Could I suggest that someone local to reading etc sends FGW a simple question about cheapest ticket for this working - we can then probe deeper based on their response.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't think it has ever been defined when the railway day starts, only when it finishes.
Apologies. TfL define the start of a day, but I think you're right that National Rail don't.
 

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
I don't think it has ever been defined when the railway day starts, only when it finishes.
Which put us in an odd situation where diffrent pepole on the same train at the same 'time' could be on diffrent sides of the railway 'date line' with a day lasting 28.5 hours.

This really needs some clarification.
 

Indigo2

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2010
Messages
3,637
Location
Reading
FWIW Barry Doe has often said that the railway day starts at midnight. It is generally accepted that a day starts at midnight, so in the absence of any information to the contrary I would assume the railway day does too. On London Underground, it is explicit that the validity of Anytime Day Travelcards (and Off-Peak Day Travelcards on weekends and holidays) starts at 00:01.
 

bignosemac

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2009
Messages
4,985
It can't be right that someone buying their ticket at 2359:59 is permitted to purchase an Off Peak ticket and travel on the 0354 from Reading to Slough, but someone else, purchasing at 0000:00 or later has to buy an Anytime ticket to travel on the same service.

I'll say again. Off Peak validity refers to the ticket. It should not apply to the time it was purchased.

I think my only solution for this journey is to fall back on NRCoC and only purchase a ticket up to the value of the valid Off Peak ticket for the journey. If that turns out to be less than the correct fare then I'll just have to eff the difference. Or should I send FGW a cheque for the difference? Not an ideal solution but the only one I can see in this scenario, save for buying online or in advance from an open ticket office.
 

Zoe

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2008
Messages
5,905
Doesn't the new policy make travel on the Night Riviera with an Off Peak ticket impossible as it arrives in Paddington after 0429? I know I asked this before but some TOC websites are now clearing stating that travel is only valid on the date shown on the ticket and until 0429 the following day.
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,838
....I'd like to see a source for the assertion that such a ticket isn't valid from 00:00 to 09:30, rather than 04:30 to 09:30.
NRES - Off Peak ticket validity said:
....Off-Peak Day Single tickets are valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket and until 0429 in the early morning on the following day. All travel must be completed by this time....
So from 0000hrs until 0429hrs the next day.
 

34D

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2011
Messages
6,031
Location
Yorkshire
I think my only solution for this journey is to fall back on NRCoC and only purchase a ticket up to the value of the valid Off Peak ticket for the journey. If that turns out to be less than the correct fare then I'll just have to eff the difference. Or should I send FGW a cheque for the difference? Not an ideal solution but the only one I can see in this scenario, save for buying online or in advance from an open ticket office.
Another option would be to buy the cheapest ticket from the machine or counter and then complain for a refund.
 

Indigo2

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2010
Messages
3,637
Location
Reading
Doesn't the new policy make travel on the Night Riviera with an Off Peak ticket impossible as it arrives in Paddington after 0429? I know I asked this before but some TOC websites are now clearing stating that travel is only valid on the date shown on the ticket and until 0429 the following day.
(Considering only single tickets for simplicity) That would only be true for an anytime, off-peak or super off-peak day single. For the kind of distances you'd likely be travelling on the sleeper, it would be much more likely that you'd be travelling on an off-peak single or super off-peak single, both of which are now valid for two days, until 04:29 on the third day (but you must start your journey on the first day). This extended validity seems to be incredibly poorly advertised to the extent that even many TOCs seem barely aware of it. You'd think ATOC don't want people to know about it. An anytime single is also valid for two days, until 04:29 on the third day. This has been better advertised.
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,784
Cheapest ticket AVAILABLE for immediate travel ;)
What complicates things is that National Rail Enquiries describe Off-Peak tickets as

NRE said:
You can buy Off-Peak tickets any time before you travel.
which clearly is not the case if one wishes to travel at 0354 but unable to purchase the ticket at 0350.

I'm not sure moving the start of day to 0430 is a good idea either, as one may no longer use an All Line Rover to start on a sleeper service the night before the commencement of the ticket by purchasing a short single to cover the initial distance until midnight. ;)

The real solution should be just to make previous day's ticket available for purchase until 0429.
 

bignosemac

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2009
Messages
4,985
Looking at the Night Riviera, FGW will only sell you online an Anytime single between EXD and PLY for the 0311, arriving 0412.

So again, you have to buy your perfectly valid Off Peak ticket before 2359 from a manned station/TVM. I wonder what the TM would sell on board?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top