Railway Fare Avoidance Solicitor vs TIL/Chiltern

[AlterEgo]

As do I. But if a complaint comes in simultaneously with someone pleading for leniency and an out of court settlement, I can well imagine how it may be perceived.

Would you complain about service in a restaurant before you'd had your food, or wait till after when the chef no longer has the chance to add a little something extra to your meal?

Yes, it's rather like being in custody and saying "oh but please, the policeman was rude to me and enjoyed catching me!"

It'll just attract an eye roll and the OP is not the victim here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, it's rather like being in custody and saying "oh but please, the policeman was rude to me and enjoyed catching me!"

And why shouldn't an inspector feel pleased with themselves if they've managed to catch out someone who has evidently been misusing the system?

 

[Deafdoggie]

And why shouldn't an inspector feel pleased with themselves if they've managed to catch out someone who has evidently been misusing the system?

Someone I spent many years working in retail with, left to join the police force. When I asked them how the new job was, they said the best thing was that the customer was always wrong!

 

[Titfield]

And why shouldn't an inspector feel pleased with themselves if they've managed to catch out someone who has evidently been misusing the system?

The TV programme that showed TfL Revenue Protection at work certainly seemed to show the staff deriving great satisfaction when they caught someone they believed to be a repeat offender.

Whilst the OP was undoubtedly upset at the attitude of the person who took their details (and they may have been OTT - we do not know precisely what happened and as many posters have pointed out in other posts there are three versions of every story) it must be very difficult for the staff not to show some emotion given that prevention of revenue loss is their raison detre.

 

[Starmill]

What precisely was the conversation on Twitter? Were you told specifically that you could travel using payg from West Ruislip and a Flexi Season from Denham to West Ruislip?

What the social media handler should have advised you to do was to buy Denham - London flexi season tickets. Indeed that's actually easier too because it's less hassle than what you were doing. I'm very confused as to what might have led them to suggest that payg can be used from a station outside the area. It really can't. Nobody is going to get off the train to touch in and wait for the next one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What precisely was the conversation on Twitter? Were you told that you specifically that you could travel using payg from West Ruislip and a Flexi Season from Denham to West Ruislip?

What the social media handler should have advised you to do was to buy Denham - London flexi season tickets. Indeed that's actually easier too because it's less hassle than what you were doing. I'm very confused as to what might have led them to suggest that payg can be used from a station outside the area. It really can't. Nobody is going to get off the train to touch in and wait for the next one.

I can to be fair see one case where that might be useful on Chiltern, albeit not on the route under discussion. I'm sure at least some people do it somewhere along the Aylesbury branch and swap to the Met Line as they do if their destination is in the City or anywhere else along there, as the walk from Marylebone to Baker St is avoided.

 

[Starmill]

it must be very difficult for the staff not to show some emotion given that prevention of revenue loss is their raison detre.

Surely not showing emotions in the interaction (i.e. not in a behind the scenes TV programme) is a key responsibility of the job? It's always in the job descriptions of these kinds of roles that they need people who can remain professional and calm at all times. It seems very wrong to me to suggest that it's very difficult.

I can to be fair see one case where that might be useful on Chiltern, albeit not on the route under discussion. I'm sure at least some people do it somewhere along the Aylesbury branch and swap to the Met Line as they do if their destination is in the City or anywhere else along there, as the walk from Marylebone to Baker St is avoided.

If you're making a change of trains anyway, then it's certainly a possibility, yes.

 

[CyrusWuff]

And why shouldn't an inspector feel pleased with themselves if they've managed to catch out someone who has evidently been misusing the system?

I'm pretty certain that most people (except those who've been caught) would take no issue with a member of revenue staff taking pride in a job well done.

The issue alleged here is that the member of staff involved has apparently forgotten that their job is just as much a customer service one as their Ticket Office colleagues, they've demonstrated about as much empathy as a brick, and they appear to have deliberately antagonised the OP.

 

[furlong]

Should be treated sympathetically as another victim of the complexity of today's fares regulation. If only the regulatory bodies would all carry out their duties and stamp out all these anti-consumer nonsenses.

 

[fishwomp]

This is timely article in the local rag:

LISTED: People in court for not paying for their train ticket

Seven people have been handed fines by an Oxford court for travelling on a train without paying for their ticket and intending to avoid its payment.

www.thisisoxfordshire.co.uk

Seems like Chiltern are being very visible about this - they are clearly keen to make sure people see this.

 

[seagull]

Surely not showing emotions in the interaction (i.e. not in a behind the scenes TV programme) is a key responsibility of the job?

I don't recall ever watching ANY behind-the-scenes style of documentary/program following enforcement action where the enforcer hasn't shown some or even a lot of positive emotion when catching an offender: be it police, traffic wardens, bailiffs, car recovery, border control, or transport revenue.

 

[Haywain]

I don't recall ever watching ANY behind-the-scenes style of documentary/program following enforcement action where the enforcer hasn't shown some or even a lot of positive emotion when catching an offender: be it police, traffic wardens, bailiffs, car recovery, border control, or transport revenue.

Positive emotion is fine when a job is done well and successfully. The issue is when that emotion is shown.

 

[Starmill]

I don't recall ever watching ANY behind-the-scenes style of documentary/program following enforcement action where the enforcer hasn't shown some or even a lot of positive emotion when catching an offender: be it police, traffic wardens, bailiffs, car recovery, border control, or transport revenue.

I guess that's what makes for good television though.

Positive emotion is fine when a job is done well and successfully. The issue is when that emotion is shown.

I certainly agree.

 

[WesternLancer]

I don't recall ever watching ANY behind-the-scenes style of documentary/program following enforcement action where the enforcer hasn't shown some or even a lot of positive emotion when catching an offender: be it police, traffic wardens, bailiffs, car recovery, border control, or transport revenue.

Those would be the bits that end up on the cutting room floor of course - not entertaining TV.

 

[Bucksman]

This is timely article in the local rag:

LISTED: People in court for not paying for their train ticket

Seven people have been handed fines by an Oxford court for travelling on a train without paying for their ticket and intending to avoid its payment.

www.thisisoxfordshire.co.uk

Seems like Chiltern are being very visible about this - they are clearly keen to make sure people see this.

I agree it does seem they’re taking a hard line. I also saw this recently, in bucks press

Teen who skipped £13 train fare must pay HUGE fine for 'obscene’ language

A man who used “abusive and obscene” language on a train has been ordered to pay more than £600.

www.bucksfreepress.co.uk

 

[WesternLancer]

I agree it does seem they’re taking a hard line. I also saw this recently, in bucks press

Teen who skipped £13 train fare must pay HUGE fine for 'obscene’ language

A man who used “abusive and obscene” language on a train has been ordered to pay more than £600.

www.bucksfreepress.co.uk

LISTED: People in court for not paying for their train ticket​

Seven people have been handed fines by an Oxford court for travelling on a train without paying for their ticket and intending to avoid its payment.
www.thisisoxfordshire.co.uk


Useful to see these, although

Obv the point of this coverage is to
a) deter others from such behaviors
b) help convince law abiding passengers that things are done to those who don't pay / behave badly

so of course there are never or rarely going to be stories in the local press about the numbers of fare dodgers 'let off' with an out of court settlement IMHO.

Just mentioning that for context for the benefit of any chiltern passengers looking for advice here on non payment of their fares. Equally helpful for them to see those links too of course.

 

[Haywain]

Obv the point of this coverage is to
a) deter others from such behaviors
b) help convince law abiding passengers that things are done to those who don't pay / behave badly

so of course there are never or rarely going to be stories in the local press about the numbers of fare dodgers 'let off' with an out of court settlement IMHO.

The point of the coverage is to attract people to read the article and the associated advertising, and nothing more. Local journalism exists and always has done because of the sales associated with it. It is not placed by the train operator and therefore any peripheral purpose it serves is a free bonus for them. There will not be reports of those achieving a settlement because that, unlike court proceedings, is not a matter of public record.

 

[nanstallon]

I agree it does seem they’re taking a hard line. I also saw this recently, in bucks press

Teen who skipped £13 train fare must pay HUGE fine for 'obscene’ language

A man who used “abusive and obscene” language on a train has been ordered to pay more than £600.

www.bucksfreepress.co.uk

It seems that the punishment was for the bad language as much as for the fare evasion. The boy deserved a good jumping on for that.

 

[Haywain]

It seems that the punishment was for the bad language as much as for the fare evasion. The boy deserved a good jumping on for that.

I don't know how you can tell - £440 is in the standard range of fines.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The point of the coverage is to attract people to read the article and the associated advertising, and nothing more. Local journalism exists and always has done because of the sales associated with it. It is not placed by the train operator and therefore any peripheral purpose it serves is a free bonus for them. There will not be reports of those achieving a settlement because that, unlike court proceedings, is not a matter of public record.

Although it may have been the railway who circulated the details to the press: I don’t think many local papers maintain a court reporter any more.

 

[WesternLancer]

The point of the coverage is to attract people to read the article and the associated advertising, and nothing more. Local journalism exists and always has done because of the sales associated with it. It is not placed by the train operator and therefore any peripheral purpose it serves is a free bonus for them. There will not be reports of those achieving a settlement because that, unlike court proceedings, is not a matter of public record.

Indeed - all agreed - but some of it may be related to so called 'churnalism' from TOC press releases, just like the way some TOCs make posters for stations detailing how many people they have prosecuted (posters which don't mention out of court settlements...) - but of course court info recycled into local papers has a long and honorable tradition. And can be a staple of sources for family history in many generations to come as often shown on TV things like Who Do You Think You are.
But we digress.

 

[Dai Corner]

Although it may have been the railway who circulated the details to the press: I don’t think many local papers maintain a court reporter any more.

I think the courts provide a list of cases and outcomes to news organisations. Certainly my local paper has a daily article detailing them.

 

[Wethebest838]

LISTED: People in court for not paying for their train ticket​

Seven people have been handed fines by an Oxford court for travelling on a train without paying for their ticket and intending to avoid its payment.
www.thisisoxfordshire.co.uk


Useful to see these, although

Obv the point of this coverage is to
a) deter others from such behaviors
b) help convince law abiding passengers that things are done to those who don't pay / behave badly

so of course there are never or rarely going to be stories in the local press about the numbers of fare dodgers 'let off' with an out of court settlement IMHO.

Just mentioning that for context for the benefit of any chiltern passengers looking for advice here on non payment of their fares. Equally helpful for them to see those links too of course.

Yeah I agree. They ain’t going to post about all the OOC settlements they get. It’s just a tactic to deter people and the reasons like abuse can add to this list. Most of them probably don’t even know you can try for an OOC settlement!

The point of the coverage is to attract people to read the article and the associated advertising, and nothing more. Local journalism exists and always has done because of the sales associated with it. It is not placed by the train operator and therefore any peripheral purpose it serves is a free bonus for them. There will not be reports of those achieving a settlement because that, unlike court proceedings, is not a matter of public record.

Couldn’t agree more with this. I don’t want the OP to feel even more anxious about this. They should keep trying! There’s always hope especially as a first time offender.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Positive emotion is fine when a job is done well and successfully. The issue is when that emotion is shown.

That's very true. Would be fine for them to go into the messroom and shout "yes!" and jump in the air, but not while dealing with the passenger.

I think it's acceptable for them to be short and to the point once an obvious irregularity has been discovered, though, just as a Police Officer would be on discovering that a motoring offence has been committed. But not rude.

 

[Haywain]

I think it's acceptable for them to be short and to the point once an obvious irregularity has been discovered, though, just as a Police Officer would be on discovering that a motoring offence has been committed. But not rude.

The problem is that it is easy (far too easy) to see 'short and to the point' as being rude.

 

[AlterEgo]

The problem is that it is easy (far too easy) to see 'short and to the point' as being rude.

And who really cares when you got caught in the shop, red-handed, filling your pockets.

So far we have had over half the discussion about whether the inspector was "rude" based on the sole testimony of the OP, who:

- repeatedly misused the contactless function by deliberately not tapping in and out properly
- did, in fact, evade fares, and likely would have continued to do so unless caught
- was caught, red handed, tapping only their flexi ticket at Marylebone which was not valid there, or anywhere near there

The only advice we can give the OP is that there is ample evidence not just of failing to show a valid ticket but also of attempting to evade the fare, so it is better at this stage to focus on:

1) Attempting to settle the matter out of court, and if unsuccessful,
2) Mitigating their actions by trying to argue there was no intent, leaving only a bylaw prosecution feasible.

Unfortunately though, Chiltern do appear minded to take people through the courts to deter exactly the sort of misuse and fare loss that has happened in this case. The OP has about as useful a defence as a man caught with a nice joint of beef up his jumper going out the door at Tesco but claiming he "just wanted to test the barrier there, I'll sort it all out later!". Then on brief investigation he's done it twice this week already and according to him it's all straightened out, but there's already ten quid short.

It looks bad, and we should concentrate on that rather than whether the person who detected this was "rude".

 

[Cowley]

It looks like at this point @TILAdvice has received some useful advice and as we tend to do with these threads, if they could get in touch with us via the report function when there’s any further developments we’ll update the thread.
Thanks everyone.