Railway or Fairground Ride - Reopening our heritage railways

John Luxton

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23 Nov 2014
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196
During the past few days, I have received notifications from heritage railways that I support of their reopening plans. I can’t say any fill me with any great enthusiasm due to the way in which their operations are being restarted. There also appears to be much commonality in arrangements which makes one wonder whether they are following a set script.

My main concerns are:

All seen so far are offering “joy ride” services – just there and back usually on consecutive trains.

Some are only operating over part of their route.

Journey’s must start and finish at one station.

This stops people from using lines to access walks, visit pubs along the route etc. Not everyone that visits a heritage line just wants to sit on the train and do a round trip – the train is often part of a bigger day out for many families.

It is no longer possible to book a single journey – some people walk one way and return by train.

(Basically, they have given up any pretence at a real transport function and one wonders if in becoming basically a fairground ride there may be VAT implication. My point is that throughout the lockdown it has been possible to turn up at a network rail station and travel without all this regulation. Why are heritage lines not working to the same rules as their network counterparts?)

Most lines want journeys pre-booked – often on-line. Though one line I have come across has stated there is no need to prebook – which I was pleased to see. Pre-booking this makes things difficult for those who are not online or who prefer not to make transactions online. How can one line state there is no need to pre-book when others do?

(This bothers me because I imagine many families make day trip decisions whether on holiday or venturing out from home probably on the spare of the moment – might be the weather forecast the night before. People are being asked to make commitments days in advance. How many heritage lines pick up passengers from someone driving and past and seeing them? I imagine quite a few. Having to book removes spontaneity of choice.

My other concern is over fares.

A number of lines are only selling compartments for one round trip fares seen so far are £50 to £60 for one compartment for one round trip discriminates against single people and even to some extent couples where the combined normal fares would not reach the total requested. Despite having to pay considerably more the “ride all day” facility where it existed has been removed.

Yes, I accept that there is a need to bring in vital revenue, but I wonder if the significant increase in costs along with the hassle of booking online will just put many people off?

Then of course there is the matter of supporter’s concessions. During the lockdown I am sure many enthusiasts have made virtual visits, donated money, bought goods from lines that have online shops etc. In addition to this I, myself, have taken out two life memberships and joined a couple of other lines on an annual basis to try and do my modest bit to help the lines I regularly visit.

So far from what I have seen lines are modifying these. One line is removing the concession from the normal service and operating member’s specials out of hours, another stating accommodation is limited and phone up. Okay reasonable to some extent but I imagine there will be other lines that axe them completely.

Basically, I just want to know what is preventing heritage railways operating on the same terms as Network Rail service and offering as near a normal service as possible?

As I see things at present, I just do not see visiting a heritage line as being a pleasant day out anymore and I am an enthusiast.

If I feel put off what must the average non enthusiast family feel like?

Is this way of operating even sustainable?

I guess the answer to that question will be answered in early September when summer holiday figures are analysed.

John
 
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Bletchleyite

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As I see things at present, I just do not see visiting a heritage line as being a pleasant day out anymore and I am an enthusiast.

If I feel put off what must the average non enthusiast family feel like?
I think the needs are very different. The railways have correctly discovered that what families do actually want is (a) a table/compartment to themselves (which if it's a compartment means no practical need to wear masks even if technically required, and nobody wants to wear a mask as a fun thing to do even if they might consider them necessary in the circumstances), and (b) to drive to the main station with a car park and take an out and back ride.

They have presumably realised that that income will be greater than from pleasing enthusiasts in the short term, and they need that income.

The VAT question is an interesting one. Almost nobody uses a heritage railway as public transport (yes, people on here will have done, and I have on occasions, but not very often) and so it is a tourirst attraction. So it's an interesting question whether it should be VAT exempt - I didn't know it was, and it's probably just a technicality in reality.

(This bothers me because I imagine many families make day trip decisions whether on holiday or venturing out from home probably on the spare of the moment – might be the weather forecast the night before. People are being asked to make commitments days in advance. How many heritage lines pick up passengers from someone driving and past and seeing them? I imagine quite a few. Having to book removes spontaneity of choice.
I doubt very many do. In 2020 they probably sit Googling (either on their phone or on the computer) what to do that day, so a couple more taps to book isn't a big thing and ensures you'll be able to travel. In 1990, say, what you'd do is go off on your camping holiday (or whatever) and on the first day of the trip you'd go to the local Tourist Information (or the campsite office) and pick up a stack of leaflets with ideas of what to do. Almost nobody is driving along and sees a heritage railway and goes "oh, I know, I'll go for a ride now" (not least because such railways tend to operate infrequent timetables similar to what would have operated when an active railway - they don't exactly operate 15 minute clockface services!). Even someone noticing one as they drove along would probably get to where they were going and get their phone out, Google "railway in <town>" and find out more before deciding when to go.
 
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Tom B

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They needn't book days in advance - they could book that morning if the weather is good or the night before. As to people not online, I imagine this perhaps comprises a very few old age pensioners.

In relation to the rest of the post - no, it's not ideal, no it's not the experience to which people will be used, but if it means that the railways can begin operating again and bringing in vital revenue that is something to be applauded. I'd assume that the railways have been sharing best practice hence why you say most have similar plans. Do not forget that the needs of the enthusiast (loyal, annual members) must be balanced against the families (the fares from whom keep the place afloat).

At least the compartment stock has in-built social distancing!
 

John Luxton

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196
I doubt very many do. In 2020 they probably sit Googling (either on their phone or on the computer) what to do that day, so a couple more taps to book isn't a big thing and ensures you'll be able to travel. In 1990, say, what you'd do is go off on your camping holiday (or whatever) and on the first day of the trip you'd go to the local Tourist Information (or the campsite office) and pick up a stack of leaflets with ideas of what to do. Almost nobody is driving along and sees a heritage railway and goes "oh, I know, I'll go for a ride now" (not least because such railways tend to operate infrequent timetables similar to what would have operated when an active railway - they don't exactly operate 15 minute clockface services!). Even someone noticing one as they drove along would probably get to where they were going and get their phone out, Google "railway in <town>" and find out more before deciding when to go.
Perhaps your perceptions are different - but I have definitely overheard comments when travelling such as "I didn't know this existed until I saw it" thus I think for certain lines near major routes there must be a good few visitors who turn up on spec. I have seen people when arriving back on a last train to see disappointed potential travellers who did turn up on spec but because they arrived after the last train couldn't travel.

From my own personal point of view I have a selection of railways within say 100 or so miles from home that I visit on a day trip basis and another selection from my holiday venues (I always stay in the same places) - my usual decision is based on the Met Office. Sunny day - railway probably less busy, families on the beach, good for photos then I will go. Wet / cool / dull - railway busier as families dodging showers - not good for photos - probably wont visit.

My argument is that people should have a choice between online and in person bookings - as most booking offices have always had screens between staff and customers I can't even see it being an issue to be honest.

I must admit I take your point on masks being unnecessary in compartments for families as I admit to being a refusnik on that matter.

My argument being back in March we were told they were useless and now opinion has shifted - I have strong feeling about changing goal posts and see this more as a political decision - mainly to act as a crutch for the worried well.

John
 

John Luxton

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They needn't book days in advance - they could book that morning if the weather is good or the night before. As to people not online, I imagine this perhaps comprises a very few old age pensioners.

In relation to the rest of the post - no, it's not ideal, no it's not the experience to which people will be used, but if it means that the railways can begin operating again and bringing in vital revenue that is something to be applauded. I'd assume that the railways have been sharing best practice hence why you say most have similar plans. Do not forget that the needs of the enthusiast (loyal, annual members) must be balanced against the families (the fares from whom keep the place afloat).

At least the compartment stock has in-built social distancing!
My point is basically why can't the heritage lines operate under the same terms as Network Rail? Turn up and go?

There could be the option of open stock (wear face masks) for turn up and go passengers or those wishing to use intermediate stations.

Pre-booked compartments for those who travel as family groups and / or who don't want to wear a mask and do the complete journey.

As most lines have both types of stock I can't really see a problem providing both options in the same train.

John
 

bramling

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During the past few days, I have received notifications from heritage railways that I support of their reopening plans. I can’t say any fill me with any great enthusiasm due to the way in which their operations are being restarted. There also appears to be much commonality in arrangements which makes one wonder whether they are following a set script.

My main concerns are:

All seen so far are offering “joy ride” services – just there and back usually on consecutive trains.

Some are only operating over part of their route.

Journey’s must start and finish at one station.

This stops people from using lines to access walks, visit pubs along the route etc. Not everyone that visits a heritage line just wants to sit on the train and do a round trip – the train is often part of a bigger day out for many families.

It is no longer possible to book a single journey – some people walk one way and return by train.

(Basically, they have given up any pretence at a real transport function and one wonders if in becoming basically a fairground ride there may be VAT implication. My point is that throughout the lockdown it has been possible to turn up at a network rail station and travel without all this regulation. Why are heritage lines not working to the same rules as their network counterparts?)

Most lines want journeys pre-booked – often on-line. Though one line I have come across has stated there is no need to prebook – which I was pleased to see. Pre-booking this makes things difficult for those who are not online or who prefer not to make transactions online. How can one line state there is no need to pre-book when others do?

(This bothers me because I imagine many families make day trip decisions whether on holiday or venturing out from home probably on the spare of the moment – might be the weather forecast the night before. People are being asked to make commitments days in advance. How many heritage lines pick up passengers from someone driving and past and seeing them? I imagine quite a few. Having to book removes spontaneity of choice.

My other concern is over fares.

A number of lines are only selling compartments for one round trip fares seen so far are £50 to £60 for one compartment for one round trip discriminates against single people and even to some extent couples where the combined normal fares would not reach the total requested. Despite having to pay considerably more the “ride all day” facility where it existed has been removed.

Yes, I accept that there is a need to bring in vital revenue, but I wonder if the significant increase in costs along with the hassle of booking online will just put many people off?

Then of course there is the matter of supporter’s concessions. During the lockdown I am sure many enthusiasts have made virtual visits, donated money, bought goods from lines that have online shops etc. In addition to this I, myself, have taken out two life memberships and joined a couple of other lines on an annual basis to try and do my modest bit to help the lines I regularly visit.

So far from what I have seen lines are modifying these. One line is removing the concession from the normal service and operating member’s specials out of hours, another stating accommodation is limited and phone up. Okay reasonable to some extent but I imagine there will be other lines that axe them completely.

Basically, I just want to know what is preventing heritage railways operating on the same terms as Network Rail service and offering as near a normal service as possible?

As I see things at present, I just do not see visiting a heritage line as being a pleasant day out anymore and I am an enthusiast.

If I feel put off what must the average non enthusiast family feel like?

Is this way of operating even sustainable?

I guess the answer to that question will be answered in early September when summer holiday figures are analysed.

John
I suspect they’re banking on the idea that there’s sufficient family groups around that it provides enough of a viable model to get *some* revenue in. With kids off school and summer holidays approaching it’s possibly viable until September, but useless after that.

I dislike it for all the reasons you mention, but if it keeps some railways ticking over then it’s the lesser evil.

Of course as you rightly say this assumes there’s enough families willing and able to pay for such an experience.

Personally it’s not for me - I like the flexibility, and I wouldn’t drive miles just for an out and back trip, especially with no choice as to where we sit etc. However observations suggest many do turn up and want to go for a modest trip on a steam train and then disappear, so this caters for that, especially as there’s some positives like getting an exclusive compartment. Many also like to make use of facilities like the inevitable cafe.

Beyond September the problem facing many preserved railways will be how they make up for the lack of the coach tour market, which presumably is going to be heavily reduced or missing altogether for some time to come. Ironically the more enthusiast-focused railways may fare better in this respect as they wouldn’t have been quite so reliant on it in the first place.
 
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Bletchleyite

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They needn't book days in advance - they could book that morning if the weather is good or the night before. As to people not online, I imagine this perhaps comprises a very few old age pensioners.
And even if they don't do the Internet at all, is there even anyone now who doesn't have a telephone? My best mate in school didn't when I was a kid (late 80s/early 90s) - he was quite poor and lived on a rural council estate - but that was very rare even then.
 

Cowley

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It may also be worth bearing in mind that they may be short staffed due to elderly volunteers still self isolating at home which could well mean less people to look after amenities, clean carriages, toilets etc.
Perhaps this is the only way they can do it at the moment?
 

Peter C

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I'm thinking along the same lines as @Cowley in that this might be the only way heritage railways can run at the moment. I don't know for sure, but if a heritage railway ran a normal service (or as close to one as possible), they would probably attract many more people than the national network.
Heritage railways are often in nice countryside, with nice views and plenty to do - "normals" and families are much more likely to go to a heritage railway offering a full service with plenty to do and see than they are to go on the national network.

A heritage railway station and a national railway station of the same size are highly likely to see very different passenger figures per day. On a heritage railway, you only have a few stations to start your journey at a lot of the time, so passengers will be more concentrated towards those stations. However, on the national network, there are often more stations covering the same sort of area, so passengers can spread out across those stations. I expect this is something a booking-in-advance system takes into account - knowing how many people exactly will walk onto your station helps planning things such as social distancing markers on one-way systems greatly.

This might be a load of complete rubbish, and if so, let me know. :)

-Peter
 

Richard Scott

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I think many are treading carefully and testing the water as trains run at a loss are worse than no trains at all. It's much harder for Heritage Railways where many rely on volunteers and much harder to tell volunteers what to do e.g. believe toilets have to be regularly cleaned, doubt many would volunteer for that so likely has to be contracted out. As pointed out some volunteers may still be shielding so relying on younger ones, many who work so cannot run weekday services? I think the VAT (mentioned earlier) can be got around by stopping the train at other stations allowing people to leave the train (even if they can't join there so effectively set down only).
 

xotGD

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Fair play to the railways for devising a way to offer some sort of service.

For a leisure trip they need to reassure prospective punters that they will be safe on board.

Being able to reserve a compo for your family sounds like a much better option than taking your chances in an open coach.
 

LowLevel

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Start with a more restrictive service, with clearly defined boundaries and working methods, see how you manage and progressively you can amend that according to the circumstances.
 

Bletchleyite

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I thought that the common wisdom was that families want to do something at the other end?
I dunno, whenever we went on a heritage railway as a family it was an out and back ride (maybe a brief walk round the town at the destination if there was a break while they ran the loco round), then back in the car and off somewhere else. The train ride was the purpose, not a mode of transport.

Of note is that the Ffestiniog Railway are now part reopening on this same basis, i.e. a minimum fee per compartment (£25 per adult with a minimum of £50, £1 per kid), and using the heritage compartment stock only. Single journeys allowed but at full price and only from Porthmadog, not the other way.
 

Flying Phil

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From the GCR website, the re opening trains are from Quorn to L North and return to Quorn. Compartment coaches with bubble groups/families per compartment.....but they are selling as single tickets, so it could be just one person in a compartment for £11.00. Which I think is very good value!
 

LowLevel

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From the GCR website, the re opening trains are from Quorn to L North and return to Quorn. Compartment coaches with bubble groups/families per compartment.....but they are selling as single tickets, so it could be just one person in a compartment for £11.00. Which I think is very good value!
Although there is a restriction in the booking engine to prevent the whole train being booked out by individuals, so only many single occupancy compartments are available. No point running the train if it isn't going to make any money after all.
 

Journeyman

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During the past few days, I have received notifications from heritage railways that I support of their reopening plans. I can’t say any fill me with any great enthusiasm due to the way in which their operations are being restarted. There also appears to be much commonality in arrangements which makes one wonder whether they are following a set script.
They are - the Heritage Railway Association, the trade body representing the entire sector, has put together an extensive planning and guidance document for resuming operations in the current climate. It's very comprehensive (over fifty pages long) and has been developed in conjunction with the ORR and a number of other bodies. It covers the need to juggle:
  • providing as "normal" a day out as possible in decidedly abnormal circumstances
  • balancing the need to conform to government health regulations, and provide visible reassurance for the nervous, without ruining the heritage experience
  • dealing with the likelihood that far fewer volunteers may be available
  • how to ensure consistent safety is achieved

My main concerns are:

All seen so far are offering “joy ride” services – just there and back usually on consecutive trains.

Some are only operating over part of their route.

Journey’s must start and finish at one station.

This stops people from using lines to access walks, visit pubs along the route etc. Not everyone that visits a heritage line just wants to sit on the train and do a round trip – the train is often part of a bigger day out for many families.

It is no longer possible to book a single journey – some people walk one way and return by train.
I'm not sure where you've been for the last few months! This is what has to be done to ensure the items in the list are covered. It's far from ideal, but under the current circumstances it's the best that can be done. The alternative is not opening for a long time, and that will force many lines out of business.

(Basically, they have given up any pretence at a real transport function and one wonders if in becoming basically a fairground ride there may be VAT implication. My point is that throughout the lockdown it has been possible to turn up at a network rail station and travel without all this regulation. Why are heritage lines not working to the same rules as their network counterparts?)
Can't answer the VAT question, but I don't really know a single heritage railway that seriously attempts to provide "real transport function". It happens incidentally in some cases, but it's only used by a small minority of users as a kind of bonus. I know the Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch used to provide a school service, but most attempts by heritage railways to provide commuter services etc. have fallen at the first hurdle, and none of them have managed it.

Most lines want journeys pre-booked – often on-line. Though one line I have come across has stated there is no need to prebook – which I was pleased to see. Pre-booking this makes things difficult for those who are not online or who prefer not to make transactions online. How can one line state there is no need to pre-book when others do?
I don't know. You could ask them. But LNER are reservation only to maintain social distancing, so it's not surprising that heritage railways are doing it too.


My other concern is over fares.

A number of lines are only selling compartments for one round trip fares seen so far are £50 to £60 for one compartment for one round trip discriminates against single people and even to some extent couples where the combined normal fares would not reach the total requested. Despite having to pay considerably more the “ride all day” facility where it existed has been removed.
Again, need to maintain social distancing. It's annoying, but hardly surprising given the circumstances. What do you suggest?

Basically, I just want to know what is preventing heritage railways operating on the same terms as Network Rail service and offering as near a normal service as possible?
They've never operated on the same terms.

As I see things at present, I just do not see visiting a heritage line as being a pleasant day out anymore and I am an enthusiast.

If I feel put off what must the average non enthusiast family feel like?
Enthusiast and non-enthusiast visitors are nothing like each other. Plenty of people will go for this. Personally, I won't, but hey.

Is this way of operating even sustainable?
It's much more sustainable than staying closed indefinitely.
 

6Gman

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On the VAT issue . . .

My understanding (and this came some years ago from the manager of a heritage railway, so may have changed since then) was that a service linking two places with the possibility of alighting at the other end was VAT exempt as a public transport facility, whereas a trip that brought you back to the starting point wasn't and was therefore liable to VAT.

They ran a small miniature line from one end of the site to the other. By opening a station at the far end and offering people the option of alighting (not that anyone ever did) they were exempt from VAT.
 

Journeyman

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Yeah, I suspect the VAT thing has always been a slightly dishonestly exploited loophole. I can't see HMRC losing too much sleep over it at the moment.
 

30907

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On the VAT issue . . .

My understanding (and this came some years ago from the manager of a heritage railway, so may have changed since then) was that a service linking two places with the possibility of alighting at the other end was VAT exempt as a public transport facility, whereas a trip that brought you back to the starting point wasn't and was therefore liable to VAT.
Plenty of railways started up with only one boarding/alighting point - the Embsay when I first visited 25+ years ago comes to mind.
Most railways offer single fares normally, even if takeup isn't huge. In the present context, a single fare from the one boarding point to the end of the line could be offeredoffered, provided there was actually a way to exit the station and this could be managed safely - easier on some lines than others no doubt.
 

Journeyman

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Not ideal but better than staying shut until next year and going out of business.

Simple as that for me.
Exactly.

Attempting to put a positive spin on it, you'll see quite a lot of compartment stock active this year that usually only gets rarely used, so it could make things a bit more interesting.
 

colchesterken

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I think the heritage railway movement lost its way years ago, and has been made worse by the virus
I have been a member of one for many years they are always appealing for donations for this and that, always worthwhile projects
but the recognition is not there, I cannot afford to make the large donations to get the entitlement to benefits, but have over the years given a considerable amount in odd tenners or twenty here and there, all I get is a mag. 4 times a year and a small discount on ticket prices.
There is another thread on the same subject where people are remising about the good old days work shop visits etc. gone on the grounds of elf and safety, make the place at weekends for visits, then we could see where our money is going

I hope this is the point where they ALL think about their loyal members, after we may go 2 or 3 times a year rather than a day out with the kids.
After all unless the train is full it would cost nothing to give members free rides how about a points system for small donations like Tescos they could make it subject to availability.
 

xotGD

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I think the heritage railway movement lost its way years ago, and has been made worse by the virus
I have been a member of one for many years they are always appealing for donations for this and that, always worthwhile projects
but the recognition is not there, I cannot afford to make the large donations to get the entitlement to benefits, but have over the years given a considerable amount in odd tenners or twenty here and there, all I get is a mag. 4 times a year and a small discount on ticket prices.
There is another thread on the same subject where people are remising about the good old days work shop visits etc. gone on the grounds of elf and safety, make the place at weekends for visits, then we could see where our money is going

I hope this is the point where they ALL think about their loyal members, after we may go 2 or 3 times a year rather than a day out with the kids.
After all unless the train is full it would cost nothing to give members free rides how about a points system for small donations like Tescos they could make it subject to availability.
Rather than making a donation, why not buy a ticket? The railway still gets the money and you get a trip on the line.
 

Dave W

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About to be rather OT here, but it's in context:

Yeah, I suspect the VAT thing has always been a slightly dishonestly exploited loophole. I can't see HMRC losing too much sleep over it at the moment.
Not a loophole... HMRC explicitly provide for it here: https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/vat-transport/vtrans030600

The important bit:

Where a preserved railway provides a timetabled service between stations at which passengers can board and alight, and the railway is not within a place or entertainment or interest [removed link to a list of these], the service is one of passenger transport and is zero-rated. This remains the case where minor additional facilities are supplied in the course of the journey: such facilities are not considered to create a place of entertainment or interest in their own right [this refers to gifts provided on Santa Specials, etc]
And also, point of order: it's not quite "exempt" from VAT, rather that it is "zero-rated" (as with nearly all public transport).

Provision of goods and services which are exempt from VAT don't allow for any reclaiming of VAT incurred on "inputs" (costs of provision), whereas zero-rated items are - I don't know the precise details about heritage railways but an example might be loco fuel.

Depending on the balance of sales between amenities (on board food sales, cafes, pubs, shops etc) and ticket sales, I suspect some heritage railways are actually in a VAT negative position, that is they claim more than they pay - all that's entirely legal.
 

bramling

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I think the heritage railway movement lost its way years ago, and has been made worse by the virus
I have been a member of one for many years they are always appealing for donations for this and that, always worthwhile projects
but the recognition is not there, I cannot afford to make the large donations to get the entitlement to benefits, but have over the years given a considerable amount in odd tenners or twenty here and there, all I get is a mag. 4 times a year and a small discount on ticket prices.
There is another thread on the same subject where people are remising about the good old days work shop visits etc. gone on the grounds of elf and safety, make the place at weekends for visits, then we could see where our money is going

I hope this is the point where they ALL think about their loyal members, after we may go 2 or 3 times a year rather than a day out with the kids.
After all unless the train is full it would cost nothing to give members free rides how about a points system for small donations like Tescos they could make it subject to availability.
All the preserved railways really need to do to keep enthusiasts happy is run a bit of interesting traction or coaching stock mixed in with their normal timetable, and perhaps the odd gala event where the roles are reversed and on those days the token provision is for families.

Somewhere like the Ffestiniog gets this spot on by often attaching a vintage carriage or two on one end of the train behind the loco, which ironically is done more for strengthening than for enthusiasts, but the result is that the enthusiasts can pleasure themselves in there whilst keeping segregated from the families and coach parties. It’s a win all round.
 

Flying Phil

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I think the heritage railway movement lost its way years ago, and has been made worse by the virus
I have been a member of one for many years they are always appealing for donations for this and that, always worthwhile projects
but the recognition is not there, I cannot afford to make the large donations to get the entitlement to benefits, but have over the years given a considerable amount in odd tenners or twenty here and there, all I get is a mag. 4 times a year and a small discount on ticket prices.
There is another thread on the same subject where people are remising about the good old days work shop visits etc. gone on the grounds of elf and safety, make the place at weekends for visits, then we could see where our money is going

I hope this is the point where they ALL think about their loyal members, after we may go 2 or 3 times a year rather than a day out with the kids.
After all unless the train is full it would cost nothing to give members free rides how about a points system for small donations like Tescos they could make it subject to availability.
Whilst there are a number of good points made, some railways do try to keep things like workshop visits going. The GCR has had members of the Boscastle team giving guided tours once a month (Though not at present). These are free, but many do donate.
The points system for donations would probably be too expensive to administer but possibly a "Loyalty card" system on ticket sales, similar to cafes etc might work?
 

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