• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Railway staff lying to the BTP

Status
Not open for further replies.

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
8,404
Location
Back office
Over the course of the Easter weekend between Friday and Monday, numerous members of railway staff attempted to have me arrested. All of these attempts failed because the BTP were satisfied I had not committed any offence.

On Friday, gateline staff at FGW allegedly called up the police and told them that I had a gun. This was a vindictive, vexatious and categorical lie. I presume it was a ruse to discredit me in response to the fact that I was prepared to act as a witness to them making unnecessary offensive physical contact with another passenger.

On Sunday, the BTP were called to have me removed from a train at Ashford International. The staff lied to the BTP by telling them I didn't have a valid ticket. I have no idea what else was said to them to get them to attend.

On Monday, I had two of Southeastern's REOs attempt to physically drag me off a Class 395 at Ashford International - one of them had my wrist and performed a Chinese burn to the extent that my hand was bruised afterwards (I took a photograph,) whilst the other one was twisting my upper arm and decided to grip it with excessive force when I told him I was wounded there and requested he let go. The BTP were telephoned by Southeastern staff. Once the REOs gave up manhandling me, I then phoned the BTP to report what had just happened. It was very much the case that the REOs knew before touching me that it was physically impossible for them to haul me out of an airline seat and through a narrow aisle, which led me to believe they were not trying to remove me from the railway (Byelaw 24) but rather trying to provoke me to launch an assault on them. I have full control over my temper at all times and whilst they were attempting to haul me, told them in no uncertain terms that I was not stupid enough to assault anybody and that the whole incident was being caught on CCTV. They gave up upon realising that in whatever they were attempting to do, they were going to fail and dig an even deeper hole for themselves.

It was evident that they were not trained to any standard how to physically handle a person and with no authority to use any devices to immobilise people, I found myself wondering what the hell these "Revenue Enforcement Officers" thought they were doing.

Depsite the fact that the OBM, the REOs and various other Southeastern employees witnessing the incident wanting me off the train, I was told that Southeastern's staff allegedly rang the police and told them that I was being physically restrained and held on the train! The BTP were not going to attend at this point, but they did come as they received multiple calls to say a passenger was being assaulted by railway staff.

I'm not posting to recall full details of what happened - I had a valid ticket in all three cases, in the latter two cases I volunteered my details and suggested they go down the TIR route if they didn't like the tickets I was using and there were no aggravating factors as I'm never, ever rude to these people. The point I wish to make is that it is evident some railway staff fail to understand what the police are there for. Surely they exist so they can be called on to deal with criminal offences - not to aid power trips from people who feel they have the authority to force customers off their trains without any real reason - or entertain any other playground type games.

It's a small wonder I read accounts from staff on the internet who bemoan the BTP for not attending when they call, or placing the request for assistance as low priority - it's because of the colleagues who do things like the above and waste the police's time. My opinion is that the BTP are probably fed up with receiving calls for assistance with far fetched stories from railway staff where no actual offence has been committed.

Given I make sure I'm never in breach of the three failures, perhaps is it not so inconceivable that some of the less scrupulous members of staff on the railways decide the best way forward is to completely fabricate a story, just to get the BTP to attend. Personally, I'd like to see that anybody who does that is reported and held accountable for their actions. Such asinine attitudes have no place in roles where staff have a responsibility for the safety of other people.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

soil

Established Member
Joined
28 May 2012
Messages
1,956
Accusing someone of having a gun is likely to be attempting to pervert the course of justice.

"The offence is committed where a person:

does an act (a positive act or series of acts is required; mere inaction is insufficient)
which has a tendency to pervert and
which is intended to pervert
the course of public justice.
4. The course of justice includes the police investigation of a possible crime (it is not necessary for legal proceedings to have begun). A false allegation which risks the arrest or wrongful conviction of an innocent person is enough. "

Also, if you feel that this is, or might be, a hate incident (definition at bottom of http://www.kent.police.uk/contact_us/hate_crime/hate.html), then you can report it as such online
http://www.report-it.org.uk/your_police_force

I believe that the police are required to take such reports more seriously.

In respect of the incidents on SE, my guess is that if they honestly believed that you had no valid ticket (even if you did), then they would be able to defend their actions as the use of reasonable force in an attempt to remove a trespasser. You could still report them for assault though.
 

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
8,404
Location
Back office
I don't think it's anything to do with hate under the definition given - they'd quite probably do exactly the same thing to anyone who calmly defended their right to travel with a valid ticket.

Certainly the OBM on Southeastern wrote "Not HS1" on my ticket then said as it was endorsed as such, I was obliged to comply with that restriction. He also stated that him wanting me off the train was a matter of principle when I put it to him that I'd more than happily provide my details so the TOC could investigate more impartially and follow up the matter as appropriate. He said that he didn't want my details and as he told me to get off, I should do so and that should be the end of it. The second he heard I had a staff pass, he demanded I hand it over which was quite funny as it could have been a staff pass for anything. Probably another one of these mystifying people who takes pleasure in withdrawing Privs from fellow railwaymen, though he got the wrong end of the stick in my case.

On both occasions, Southeastern's staff decided the best course of action was to delay the trains. I accept no responsibility whatsoever, because I remained calmly in my seat on both occasions, had fulfilled all of my obligations prior to boarding and committed no offence. The only thing causing the railway to be disrupted was the conductor's wilful failure to dispatch the train coupled with the driver's decision to leave their cab and get themselves involved in a ticket dispute in at least one of the cases. Given there was plenty of time for them to arrange to have the train met at my destination both times, I feel it was incredibly poor judgement to behave in this manner when there was no level of threat to anything as a factor.

I have no idea how they came to be under the misimpression that I had a gun. I conducted my own inquiry into the accusation and found that there were more holes in the FGW staff's story than a sieve. It's a case of letting them dig further or admit that they were lying. Either way, it's only a matter of time before it backfires on them.
 
Last edited:

Ferret

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2009
Messages
4,124
I have no idea how they came to be under the misimpression that I had a gun....

....Either way, it's only a matter of time before it backfires on them.

Is that supposed to be funny?!

Your comments on the BTP are very interesting - I've seen the very worst and the very best of them recently, where one set of officers actively obstructed my attempts to deal with a fare evader because they don't know the law, and another set dealt with the same fare evader perfectly when they were caught a second time.

 

wensley

Established Member
Joined
29 Jun 2008
Messages
2,045
Location
On a train...somewhere!
Is that supposed to be funny?!

Your comments on the BTP are very interesting - I've seen the very worst and the very best of them recently, where one set of officers actively obstructed my attempts to deal with a fare evader because they don't know the law, and another set dealt with the same fare evader perfectly when they were caught a second time.


I agree, as with anything else there are a whole spectrum of officers out there. I've met plenty reluctant to help out but I was assaulted when working the other week and I was damned glad to have two BTP on the train then! You can't judge them all together, but it certainly can be frustrating sometimes.
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
Well thats a truly shocking thing to read to happen. I do hope you have made a proper complaint about the treatment to both TOCs concerned and reported all to the BTP and requested CCTV from the Javelin you were on and tried to be dragged off.

This is appalling behaviour and it cannot be tolerated at all. And I am hoping that you will be recieveing not just a letter but a personal call from at least the area managers concerned from both TOCs to let you know that the strongest action will be taken against those who have commited such acts against you.

They may well have to deal with drunks and violent passengers who are fare dodgers all the time but that still does not give them the right to do what they did because they were under the false impression that they were right.

Ive met many OBMs on the HS1 route as I am a frequent travelling and at all times I have found them to be nice and polite, even to those who may have a ticket irregularity so this comes as a bit of a shock.
 

Ferret

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2009
Messages
4,124
What was the name of the OBM concerned ?

I'm not sure that should be publicised on the forum. Better to leave it to SET to investigate and deal with it, rather than have a public naming and shaming I feel.
 

38Cto15E

Member
Joined
1 Nov 2009
Messages
1,001
Location
15E
Thanks for the tale of woe RJ, that gun accusation seems very very serious to me, maybe the armed response units could have turned up and with all that follows, "freeze" etc etc.
Maybe your EMT reputation has been passed on to all the TOCs.

Keep up the good work and all the best.
 

156441

Member
Joined
30 Aug 2011
Messages
501
Location
Manchester
Anyone that has had BTP called out 3 times has serious issues.

It's the 4th time you've mentioned them being called in as many months. I'm beginning to think your not as milky white as you'd have us believe.

However if all the above is true then it is indeed shocking behaviour.
 

AlexS

Established Member
Joined
7 Jun 2005
Messages
2,886
Location
Just outside the Black Country
I've never come across anyone who would attempt to physically remove someone over a fares issue - that's something I've always seen left to the police (who certainly do have ways of dragging individuals out of seats!). Are these REO types private security wallahs with a silly title?
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,764
Location
Yorkshire
It's the 4th time you've mentioned them being called in as many months. I'm beginning to think your not as milky white as you'd have us believe.
Well, if you call using a ticket on a permitted route, but not a route that the railway expects you to take, then he is not "milky white" (whatever that means). But, by that definition, no-one is!

Let's face it: these people have not been trained on the Routeing Guide, have not been told it exists (OK, so I don't expect everyone to be an expert, but the existence of it is in the NRCoC!) and the idea that someone can use a ticket between 2 nearby stations via a roundabout route is totally alien to them and they therefore deem the ticket completely invalid. They can get extremely angry at the idea that the passenger deems the ticket valid (a bit like if a passenger tried to argue the world is flat - they do not even consider the possibility the passenger may be correct at all).

As for SET, some of the on-board managers get up to all sorts of tricks, such as claiming the shortest route rule doesn't exist (you don't even have to look at the Routeing Guide for that - it's in the NRCoC!!!), or claiming that a ticket routed "X not Y" is not valid on the shortest route via X, but is valid via Y! Some of their gateline staff claim that their own website sells "invalid" itineraries that they will not honour, and made all sorts of ridiculous claims such as denying that booking an itinerary on their website forms a contract.

We should be able to use any valid ticket, but many of us are too afraid to, because we know some staff will invent rules. RJ is one of very few people who will actually use any ticket that is valid for his journey and stand his ground. Hardly anyone is prepared to do that, and some of the staff really, really, really hate it when people use a valid ticket that they don't like the look of and won't agree to purchase a replacement ticket.

I've had to defend people and myself, in some very unpleasant situations, such as using a through train on Scotrail, when the other people I was travelling with were threatened with BTP for travelling on a through train as the Guard did not believe the through train rule existed, and a trip on East Coast where a particularly nasty guard was going to strand a teenager several hundred miles from home until a nice BTP officer intervened.

And I've even known of passengers travelling on "mandatory" trains with a "mandatory reservation" on an Advance ticket, where the Guard has made various threats and deemed their ticket invalid! The passenger was told he should have taken a different route, despite the ticket being routed "TOC X Only" and there being no service on TOC X via the route the Guard was proposing the passenger should have taken!!

Then there's FCC prosecuting people for travelling on trains that are shown on an itinerary produced on FCC's own website!!! One of whom went to Court, and FCC had to pay costs. Since then FCC have been dropping the case - but not after mistreatment of the customer.
However if all the above is true ....
These stories are NOT being made up. They don't just happen to RJ, but not many people will stand their ground and most people don't want to post their experiences on the forum either.
 

Ferret

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2009
Messages
4,124
Anyone that has had BTP called out 3 times has serious issues.

It's the 4th time you've mentioned them being called in as many months. I'm beginning to think your not as milky white as you'd have us believe.

But, with RJ using erm, 'creative' ticketing, and the poor standard of training of revenue staff, I have to say I don't find it surprising that he's had the BTP out 4 times!
 

Monty

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2012
Messages
2,352
Echoing what Ferret and Wensley have said there really is a whole spectrum of officers out there the good and bad, this also applicable to rail staff be it an RPI or Guard. RJ, I don't need to tell you how important it is you both make a complaint to the police and South Eastern about what happened on High Speed 1, the CCTV should be more than enough evidence to for a case to be made.

I am totally bemused about the possession of a firearm accusation, it just makes me want to scratch my head and think "What the f..."

On a slightly light hearted note, what I do find amusing is that not so long ago a gentlemen registered on here to obtain advice after being issued a PFN on HS1. He stated that SET's OBMs were trained to a far higher level of customer service than a common 'guard'. Oh the irony. :lol:
 

Wolfie

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2010
Messages
6,151
Firstly, the caveat that only one side of the story has been supplied. Having said that, if what RJ says is accurate there are some rail staff who should not be expecting not merely disciplinary action but jail time! As for those rail staff on here worried about "witch hunts" i am afraid words fail me....

For such incidents TOC investigations are nowhere near enough - time for formal complaints to BTP and prosecutions methinks. With respect to the HS antics, RJ should start with an immediate subject access request for the CCTV and make it very clear that it is required both for a criminal complaint and civil action against the TOC - as the staff are their agents they are ultimately legally responsible. Perhaps if everyone who came across these sort of idiots pursued civil actions against the TOCs, and incidentally cost them serious money in legal fees, they might bother properly training their staff. It would be far better for the rail system if some of the "Little Hitlers" of the type Yorkie mentons (and I have had the misfortune to come across individuals amongst rail staff whose woeful level of ignorance was only surpassed by their arrogance) become unemployed sooner rather than later.
 

Ferret

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2009
Messages
4,124
Wolfie, who mentioned witch-hunts? Saying that words fail you over words that weren't said is a little bizarre!

I'm sure RJ will take the action he deems necessary, and may already be doing so.
 

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
8,404
Location
Back office
With FGW, it was nothing to do with a ticketing dispute - I just said I'd be prepared to act as a witness to a physical interation with another passenger.

With Southeastern, on both occasions I had a valid ticket. The conductor and OBM respectively disagreed and offered the option of paying for a new ticket or getting off the train. No middle ground.

I do not agree with the railway's ideology that they should be able to hold my money for an indefinite period of time whilst they determine whether or not the ticket I held was valid. As such, I refuse to hand over any extra money and I fail to see why I should be forced to get off when I've already paid up.

Procedures do exist in the eventuality of such a stalemate so that matters can be followed up. I do offer my details and state I'm quite prepared to let the TOC investigate and get back to me. Those staff stated I should give them money then write in for a refund.

Southeastern's staff seem to think the best course of action is to delay the train pending assistance. The REOs tried to drag me off the train solely because of the fare dispute, there were no aggravating factors.

Railway staff wouldn't tolerate being treated this way by other industries so shouldn't treat their customers in this way. What's wrong with TIRs?
 

Tibbs

Member
Joined
22 Aug 2012
Messages
886
Location
London
I hope you take them to the cleaners on these issues, based on what you wrote it's really outrageous behaviour.

Get your CCTV request in ASAP and via recorded mail - I know from experience that footage that may incrimminate the people taking the video has a tendency to be 'lost', and in my case it wasn't even from a closed shop like the Railways can be.
 

SETCommuter

Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
119
You should report the assault to the police asap. Inform them there is cctv available and insist they act upon it. Do your utmost to have these REOs prosecuted for the assault, it is unacceptable. REOs have a tendency to think they are police officers, when in fact they are no such thing.

So, you must have been the "Disruptive Passenger" that Southeastern tweeted about then....
 
Last edited:

soil

Established Member
Joined
28 May 2012
Messages
1,956
It's the 4th time you've mentioned them being called in as many months. I'm beginning to think your not as milky white as you'd have us believe.

I'm pretty sure he has never claimed to be milky white. :lol:
 

michael769

Established Member
Joined
9 Oct 2005
Messages
2,006
Firstly Conspiracy to pervert the course of justice is a non starter - I see no evidence of any ongoing investigation into a criminal offence, or active attempt to evade prosecution.

I also think you would struggle to make a case for assault, as the necessary guilty intent would be hard to prove - especially as RJ admits to having refused a request to leave private premises by an agent of the occupier of the premises. That fact that request might have constituted a breach of contract, or have otherwise been unreasonable is neither here nor there - the lawful occupier of any private premises has an absolute right to refuse access to anyone at any time, and also to require anyone to leave - and, in theory, can use reasonable force to remove them if they refuse to comply.

Based on RJ's description of events, one could argue a public order offence was committed by the ToC staff, but equally his refusal to comply with a requirement to leave private premises (which I assume is was led to the staff behaving in the manner they did), no matter how irrational or unreasonable, could be painted in the same light. It is hard to see how, given the circumstances, even if a case could be made, it would pass the public interest test. If the police did attend it would almost certainly, as is usually the case in such disputes, to help prevent further public order offences by either side.

I am afraid to say the only lawful course of action in such circumstances if for the passenger to comply with the requirement to leave and then to seek redress via the ToCs customer services or failing that the courts after the event.

Unpalatable though it is I cannot advise a passenger, even when being unreasonably denied his contractual right to be conveyed on a train, to break the law by refusing to comply with a request to leave private property.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Having said all that I am by no means justifying the behavior of the staff involved which was reprehensible, and if upheld deserving of disciplinary action, just pointing out that IMO the criminal justice system is not a suitable avenue for RJ to seek redress.
 
Last edited:
Joined
11 Jun 2009
Messages
89
I had issues with an over zealous "fare protection officer" at St Pancras a year or two back and demanded the BTP turn up to prevent a breach of the peace. They did and were very professional, more so when this officers boss turned up and said that my ticket was rare for the journey but perfectly valid (Newark to Strood via St Pancras.)
 

soil

Established Member
Joined
28 May 2012
Messages
1,956
Firstly Conspiracy to pervert the course of justice is a non starter - I see no evidence of any ongoing investigation into a criminal offence, or active attempt to evade prosecution.

"A false allegation which risks the arrest or wrongful conviction of an innocent person is enough. "

"In some circumstances, where for example a false allegation has not resulted in the arrest of an individual, prosecutors may consider charging an offence of wasting police time rather than perverting the course of justice."
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/perverting_the_course_of_justice_-_rape_and_dv_allegations/

It would seem to me that an allegation of possessing a gun is potentially more serious than a false rape complaint for example, since the penalty for possessing a gun in practice is often death.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,764
Location
Yorkshire
I had issues with an over zealous "fare protection officer" at St Pancras a year or two back and demanded the BTP turn up to prevent a breach of the peace. They did and were very professional, more so when this officers boss turned up and said that my ticket was rare for the journey but perfectly valid (Newark to Strood via St Pancras.)

Doesn't surprise me. The attitude of some of them is a disgrace. It comes from high up and filters down to front line staff. They also detest witnesses to their shocking behaviour. I am happy to be a witness if I'm in the area at the time
 

ANorthernGuard

Established Member
Joined
8 Oct 2010
Messages
2,662
Regardless of true or not I have never known 1 person to have so much hassle from staff. You seem to have more hassle then most travellers in an area the size manchester lmao. So what's your secret?
 

Tibbs

Member
Joined
22 Aug 2012
Messages
886
Location
London
Regardless of true or not I have never known 1 person to have so much hassle from staff. You seem to have more hassle then most travellers in an area the size manchester lmao. So what's your secret?

By the looks of it he knows more than the rail staff, and they get the hump about it.

Unfortunately there are a lot of people who get drunk on what little power they have, and don't like it when that power is challenged.
 

jb

Member
Joined
18 Dec 2011
Messages
369
It seems to be all about the poor training to me....

Not sure, certainly not in terms of knowledge... with a ticketing system this complex I think it unrealistic that any member of staff will be as knowledgeable as a dedicated enthusiast such as RJ.

I suppose how one reacts (for that is surely the issue) should be more of a training issue than I would guess it to be.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top