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Railway staff lying to the BTP

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Kentish Paul

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Hi everyone,

Have been commuting on HS1 since 27th March. (Ashford Int to Canning Town). No onboard probs apart from a passenger who apparently boarded at Ramsgate with an off peak ticket. (This was the 05:43 ex Ashford). Loads of OBM/ RPI etc appeared to deal with it but as it was in another carriage I did not see the outcome. To be fair the number of OBM/ RPI etc was due to them travelling up to London to start their shifts. I've used HS1 many times before resuming commuting, travelling to March and Castle Cary and on both trips had no problem using an "any permited" ticket on HS1.
 
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SickyNicky

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They have 'patched' this so pressing the 'i' next to the route on the route selector screen comes up with:

Excluded locations:
Stratford Int SE
Stratford

(or similar)

Interesting. I wondered how they had done this, so have had a quick look.

The current (live) electronic version of the routeing guide has no easements for route 00013 (Tilbury Excluding Ferry) - nothing in the excluded locations table at all.

It seems they has done this using the fares database, specifically the "RoutesViaNotVia" table. This lists the following excluded locations for route 13:

SRA (Stratford London)
SFA (Stratford International)

Thus a fares lookup will show the location as invalid, but unless a routeing guide lookup also references this table, it will allow the journey.

The current published routeing guide makes no reference to the need to examine the excluded stations table in the fares manual (this would be hard to do anyway unless you're into databases), so in my opinion it's irrelevant. However, I think we can expect the booking engines to start taking it into account soon, and to start denying the route.
 

Paul Kelly

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Yes it seems a bit pointless why there is that table in the fares data with excluded/included locations for given routes. I had always assumed it was some hangover from before the electronic version of the routeing guide came into use and wasn't to be used any more...
 

Mojo

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Interesting. I wondered how they had done this, so have had a quick look.

The current (live) electronic version of the routeing guide has no easements for route 00013 (Tilbury Excluding Ferry) - nothing in the excluded locations table at all.

It seems they has done this using the fares database, specifically the "RoutesViaNotVia" table. This lists the following excluded locations for route 13:

SRA (Stratford London)
SFA (Stratford International)

Thus a fares lookup will show the location as invalid, but unless a routeing guide lookup also references this table, it will allow the journey.

This would make sense as WebTIS always gave an itinerary for travel via Ashford, Stratford It, Stratford, Romford, Emerson Park, Upminster and Tilbury on a ticket from Canterbury West. In fact, the first and so far only dispute I had using this ticket involved me travelling on the exact train specified on an itinerary by the website!
 

barrykas

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I would hazard a guess that said fares database entry is how SET have tried to implement negative easement 600069: "Customers travelling from Stratford Domestic station to London St Pancras may not travel via Stratford International. This easement applies in both directions."
 

soil

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It seems they has done this using the fares database, specifically the "RoutesViaNotVia" table. This lists the following excluded locations for route 13:

Just to clarify, the intended purpose of this table is to make text descriptions of routes such as 'Not Via Clapham Junction' or 'Via Appleby' function for the routeing engine.

It seems rather a perfuctory attempt to block Stratford stations, considering that you could travel via Barking instead.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would hazard a guess that said fares database entry is how SET have tried to implement negative easement 600069: "Customers travelling from Stratford Domestic station to London St Pancras may not travel via Stratford International. This easement applies in both directions."

Easements are not in the fares database. This is in the routeing database, which has its own set of tables to indicate which stations you cannot/must travel via.

Routes are a ticketing issue.
 

W230

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I would hazard a guess that said fares database entry is how SET have tried to implement negative easement 600069: "Customers travelling from Stratford Domestic station to London St Pancras may not travel via Stratford International. This easement applies in both directions."
I noticed the below in red writing on the SET website today when printing an itinerary for the St Pancras - Maryland ANY PERMITTED ticket.

picture.php


According to SET a ticket will state either:
NOT VALID ON HS1 or PLUS HIGH SPEED.

So where does my ANY PERMITTED come into it? :?

I think we may already know the answer to it though...
 

pinguini

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My interpretation of that is SET are not saying tickets will display either 'Not Valid on HS1' or 'PLUS HIGH SPEED'

Just that if the ticket does say 'NOT VALID ON HS1' it is obviously not valid on HS1 and only those that say 'Plus High Speed' will be valid on HS1. It doesn't say tickets must display either one or the other.
 

jon0844

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I certainly read that red text to say that for a ticket to be valid on high speed services, it must say so.

As such 'Any Permitted' does not say so, and as someone who might not know any better, I would assume I could not use a high speed train with such a ticket. And that would presumably mean that when a 395 comes in saying 'high speed' on the side, I'd be scared off even if using it on the classic routes.

I'd therefore say that the text is misleading at best, or downright false at worst.
 
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LexyBoy

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I'd therefore say that the text is misleading at best, or downright false at worst.

It says "Tickets for travel on high speed services must display Plus High Speed on them", which is simply false.

Perhaps the warning is only supposed to show on tickets with London as an origin/destination, in which case it's less obviously wrong, but still wrong.

And that's leaving aside the fact that "high speed services" doesn't really mean anything and could apply to Bristol-Swindon as much as St Pancreas-Ashford. They are Southeastern services, no matter how much SET likes to pretend Highspeed is somehow different.
 

MarlowDonkey

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It says "Tickets for travel on high speed services must display Plus High Speed on them", which is simply false.

If you check fares for St Pancras to Canterbury,
http://www.brfares.com/#fares?orig=STP&dest=0428&rlc=

the choice is either

PLUS HIGH SPEED or
NOT VALID ON HS1

However if you try National Rail stations (Ealing Broadway) that are not London Termini, the choice becomes

http://www.brfares.com/#fares?orig=EAL&dest=0428&rlc=

✠ANY PERMITTED and
✠NOT VALID ON HS1

So whilst true that there's a cheaper ticket by a slower route, it isn't the case that an "ordinary" ticket isn't valid. They do actually now say this on their website.

ANY PERMITTED - in the case of long distance through tickets, i.e. destinations beyond St Pancras.

Leaving out "long distance" would make it clearer.
 

furlong

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Just that if the ticket does say 'NOT VALID ON HS1' it is obviously not valid on HS1

Obviously? What is "HS1", how then do you interpret "ON HS1", and how do you ascribe meaning within the terms of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage?
 
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island

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HS1 is a train route from London St. Pancras International to Ebbsfleet International. ON HS1 means on a train travelling over that route. The NRCoC says that tickets may be limited to trains that take, or avoid, a certain route, and tickets that must avoid HS1 are endorsed with a route indicator such as NOT VALID ON HS1 or DARTFORD_NOT HS1.
 

district

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HS1 is a train route from London St. Pancras International to Ebbsfleet International. ON HS1 means on a train travelling over that route. The NRCoC says that tickets may be limited to trains that take, or avoid, a certain route, and tickets that must avoid HS1 are endorsed with a route indicator such as NOT VALID ON HS1 or DARTFORD_NOT HS1.
Trains join HS1 at Ashford International.
 

grid56126

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Just to add, surely HS1 is all trains that operate between Gravesend / Ashford International and St Pancras International including all journeys via and to/from Stratford and Ebbsfleet International stations.

Grid
 

bb21

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Just to add, surely HS1 is all trains that operate between Gravesend / Ashford International and St Pancras International including all journeys via and to/from Stratford and Ebbsfleet International stations.

Grid

HS1 is not a train (Class 395 - Javelin) or a service (South Eastern High Speed). It refers to a stretch of tracks.

If you wanted to say that all the above are High Speed services then you are correct if you exclude any that go via the "classic" lines. ;)

(Some direct services exist between Ashford International and St Pancake Low Level.)
 

DaveNewcastle

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So, two posts which give different defintions of HS1 :)

QED
Both are post hoc rationalisations or interpretations, but neither are authoritative nor prior definitions, and certainly not demonstrating what it is, as in Q.E.D.

I think if we want to look for a reliable interpretaion then we should abandon the study of maps, web pages, trains, etc. and move towards a confident declaration that the term is undefined, or, in terms of a passenger's contract, is ambiguous, lacks clarity and consequently is unenforceable.
 

sheff1

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I think if we want to look for a reliable interpretaion then we should abandon the study of maps, web pages, trains, etc. and move towards a confident declaration that the term is undefined, or, in terms of a passenger's contract, is ambiguous, lacks clarity and consequently is unenforceable.

Can we put QED after this ? ;)
 

transmanche

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I agree, that seems clear.
What I don't know (but others in SET-land may know) is if maps at stations and on-board trains make the distinction equally clear.

If so, then I'd say that passengers have sufficient information available to know where a ticket marked NOT VALID ON HS1 (or similar) can and cannot be used.

Unfortunately, the clarity of the map doesn't alter the fact that SET's interpretaion of ticket validity is incorrect.
Well, yes - the whole thing is a bit of a dog's dinner.

I'm surprised they didn't introduce a new symbol (a la maltese cross) to show which tickets are valid via HS1.
 

grid56126

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HS1 is not a train (Class 395 - Javelin) or a service (South Eastern High Speed). It refers to a stretch of tracks.

If you wanted to say that all the above are High Speed services then you are correct if you exclude any that go via the "classic" lines. ;)

(Some direct services exist between Ashford International and St Pancake Low Level.)

bb21 - I totally agree which is why I included the "via" in my post to avoid any possibility of classic line confusion.

Grid
 

Oswyntail

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Typical on the hoof botch up. Did they go "What do we wish to achieve? How best should this be done? Does that actually achieve the desired end?", or did they scream "Loophole!!!! Plug it!!!" and hope for the best. It is decades of the latter approach that have brought us the Routeing Guide, Fares Manual, NRCoC.... nd a million satisfied lawyers.
 

furlong

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ON HS1 means on a train travelling over that route. The NRCoC says that tickets may be limited to trains that take, or avoid, a certain route, and tickets that must avoid HS1 are endorsed with a route indicator such as NOT VALID ON HS1 or DARTFORD_NOT HS1.

A certain route?

13(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
(ii)the most direct route.
These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.

How clearly does this ticket show me the particular locations that the route my trains take must avoid?
 

FenMan

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Last Saturday I used HS1 on a Blackwater - Kearsney Route Any Permitted ticket to watch the football playoff game at Dover Athletic.

Two things:-

1. The barrier at St Pancras rejected my ticket (this has happened before when using tickets from Blackwater). Are the barriers programmed to reject all Route Any Permitted tickets?

2. The member of staff who eventually let me through quizzed me why I wanted to catch an HS service to Dover. She seemed satisfied when I said I was breaking my journey in Folkestone, which happened to be a true statement.
She initially seemed uncertain that STP to Kearsney via Dover Priory is a valid route. Ho hum.
 

jon0844

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The gates seem to reject just about everything. It's not a train you could hope to run to if late, as you have to factor in the extra time needed to pass the gateline.
 

island

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Both are post hoc rationalisations or interpretations, but neither are authoritative nor prior definitions, and certainly not demonstrating what it is, as in Q.E.D.

I think if we want to look for a reliable interpretaion then we should abandon the study of maps, web pages, trains, etc. and move towards a confident declaration that the term is undefined, or, in terms of a passenger's contract, is ambiguous, lacks clarity and consequently is unenforceable.

I would be very interested if a court made such a ruling, which it might, but I hope I am not wrong in saying that none has to date so ruled on this issue.

I don't think there are reasonable competing interpretations of what Southeastern meant by HS1. Nor, I think, would the average passenger be under any illusion as to what trains they may not use with a London Terminals to Gravesend ticket route NOT VALID ON HS1. Its definition and the consequent ticket terms lack rigour, however.

Edit: To be clear, my post laments the lack of clarity caused by Southeastern's looseness of terminology, rather than attempts to argue DaveNewcastle's point. Especially given that a route NOT VIA EBBSFLEET would kill off most of the issues (although not quite all, with St Pancras to Stratford Int SE needing something more). Southeastern's goal of keeping people on cheap tickets off their nice blue trains has not been accomplished well.
 
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W230

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The member of staff who eventually let me through quizzed me why I wanted to catch an HS service to Dover. She seemed satisfied when I said I was breaking my journey in Folkestone, which happened to be a true statement.

She initially seemed uncertain that STP to Kearsney via Dover Priory is a valid route. Ho hum.
I was equally quizzed when using the STP - Maryland ticket, though I should add I have no complaints about the SET staff.

Why can this not all be simplified with using: NOT VALID ON HS1 or ANY PERMITTED - is there a real need to have PLUS HIGH SPEED?

If you're travelling long distance it would seem that travel via HS1 is allowed and if travelling from/around London terminals then the ticket will clarify whether you can travel on it.
 
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