Railway staff lying to the BTP

[island]

For any parties interested in the HS1 incident, the ticket purchased at the TVM in Canterbury West was to Tilbury Riverside (routed TILBY EXCL FERRY.)

When I was able to leave Ashford International after a 3.5 hour delay, I was armed with an itinerary from the ticket office showing HS1 as a valid route for the ticket I held. This was witnessed by the gateline assistant who was surreptitiously ordered to keep tabs on me and intercept me if I tried to walk towards the platforms. The OBM on the train was actually very pleasant and I reached Stratford International. I was then detained at the station for 100 minutes. Initially by the gateline assistant who refused to open the barriers and refused to let me go until I either gave her some money, or she had satisfactory proof that any name and address provided was correct. Neither she nor any member of staff present was PACE trained, Authorised Collectors or appear to hold any level of training or competency in revenue protection beyond operating the gateline. She obviously didn't feel in the slightest bit intimidated as she was happy to keep me there against my will. So I called the BTP. The staff then also called the BTP. In a few hours, I'd gone from staff trying to force me off trains, to staff forcibly keeping me there against my wishes. Since the previous evening, I'd gone from Southeastern's staff swearing blind that I was obliged to take the shortest route (or direct train) to them swearing blind the shortest route was not a permitted route. Consistent or what?

After almost 60 minutes, an officer arrived and sided with the staff. I was let through the barriers for a PNB and after I asked the BTP officer why he felt it was necessary to follow me into the toilet, asked what would happen if I walked away. He said I'd be arrested for fare evasion, so I was forced to remain at the station.

An RPI was dispatched from St Pancras and I was issued with a £68.40 Penalty Fare for being off route. I tried to help the RPI by advising him not to issue the Penalty Fare due to it being against the Penalty Fare Rules, but he chose not to listen to me so I didn't argue any further. I quite willingly tendered £50 up front and in return, the RPI decided to retain my ticket and felt he was justified in saying it was perfectly fine for me to have to pay even more for a new ticket to Tilbury. I convinced him to change his mind however (he said only because I was polite and cooperative) and so after a delay of over 5 hours, I was finally able to go about my business.

I assume you'll be claiming Delay-Repay?

Fare evasion was never an arrestable offence. The concept of arrestable offences no longer exists, but the rules would generally not apply:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrestable_offence#Replacement

In order for rj to be arrested, there would have to be grounds for it, such as him being violent or whatever. Obviously if the staff lie about this, then they may get in trouble with the police.

As mentioned above, any offence can result in an arrest for a number of very generic reasons such as to enable the prompt and effective investigation of the offence or to prevent the investigation being hindered by the disappearance of the arrestee.

I also had a ticket to Hastings rejected by the STP barrier. In my case the ticket was looked at for about 20 seconds before they opened the gate for me. On board the guard didn't bat an eyelid and even told me which platform at Ashford the Hastings train would leave from.

Isn't the issue here that SE are trying to maxinise their premium fares for HS1 so that any ticket that hasn't had the +HS1 premium applied is automatically suspicious? Somewhat ridiculously my Finsbury Park to Hastings Rte Any Permitted ticket was priced by them, but rejected by the gate line anyway.

Perhaps they would prefer it if HS1 was operated like Heathrow Express ie not a part of the national network therefore a blanket ban on all tickets unless a premium is added to their satisfaction.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

I seem to remember that all PLUS HIGH SPEED routes were going to be retired and replaced by ANY PERMITTED, with NOT VALID ON HS1 continuing.

The real issue here is RJ's lack of a meaningful remedy.

 

[455driver]

I assume you'll be claiming Delay-Repay?

Sod delay repay I would want a <bleepin> hotel room for the night!

 

[ilkestonian]

Over the course of the Easter weekend between Friday and Monday, numerous members of railway staff attempted to have me arrested. All of these attempts failed because the BTP were satisfied I had not committed any offence.

You do seem to be singularly unfortunate. I have travelled many thousands of miles by rail and have never had anything untoward happen to me.

To have all these incidents happen in quick succession does mark you out as unlucky!

 

[jon0844]

When I was held for hours by the FCC RPI-turned-driver, I never thought about a delay repay claim.

Of course, I did get compensated by rather more than a small percentage of a season ticket priced single journey.

 

[notadriver]

When I was held for hours by the FCC RPI-turned-driver, I never thought about a delay repay claim.

Of course, I did get compensated by rather more than a small percentage of a season ticket priced single journey.

What is meant rpi-turned-driver?

 

[Darandio]

They were an RPI and are now a driver?

 

[Ferret]

What is meant rpi-turned-driver?

Jonmorris is apparently annoyed that somebody who was so incompetent as an RPI managed to get a promotion. Believe me Jon, you don't know the half of it! Only on the railway......

 

[Crossover]

For any parties interested in the HS1 incident, the ticket purchased at the TVM in Canterbury West was to Tilbury Riverside (routed TILBY EXCL FERRY.)

When I was able to leave Ashford International after a 3.5 hour delay, I was armed with an itinerary from the ticket office showing HS1 as a valid route for the ticket I held. This was witnessed by the gateline assistant who was surreptitiously ordered to keep tabs on me and intercept me if I tried to walk towards the platforms. The OBM on the train was actually very pleasant and I reached Stratford International. I was then detained at the station for 100 minutes. Initially by the gateline assistant who refused to open the barriers and refused to let me go until I either gave her some money, or she had satisfactory proof that any name and address provided was correct. Neither she nor any member of staff present was PACE trained, Authorised Collectors or appear to hold any level of training or competency in revenue protection beyond operating the gateline. She obviously didn't feel in the slightest bit intimidated as she was happy to keep me there against my will. So I called the BTP. The staff then also called the BTP. In a few hours, I'd gone from staff trying to force me off trains, to staff forcibly keeping me there against my wishes. Since the previous evening, I'd gone from Southeastern's staff swearing blind that I was obliged to take the shortest route (or direct train) to them swearing blind the shortest route was not a permitted route. Consistent or what?

After almost 60 minutes, an officer arrived and sided with the staff. I was let through the barriers for a PNB and after I asked the BTP officer why he felt it was necessary to follow me into the toilet, asked what would happen if I walked away. He said I'd be arrested for fare evasion, so I was forced to remain at the station.

An RPI was dispatched from St Pancras and I was issued with a £68.40 Penalty Fare for being off route. I tried to help the RPI by advising him not to issue the Penalty Fare due to it being against the Penalty Fare Rules, but he chose not to listen to me so I didn't argue any further. I quite willingly tendered £50 up front and in return, the RPI decided to retain my ticket and felt he was justified in saying it was perfectly fine for me to have to pay even more for a new ticket to Tilbury. I convinced him to change his mind however (he said only because I was polite and cooperative) and so after a delay of over 5 hours, I was finally able to go about my business.

In this case though, the only way to get to Tilbury Riverside from London, is via Tilbury Town. Therefore, assuming that St Pancras (Or Stratford, or wherever he bailed from the train) is on a permitted route for the journey, he is, the way that the route field of the ticket is phrased, always on a route permitted by the ticket.

Disclaimer: this is just my interpretation of it. I'm not the most knowlegeable person about ticketing, so I've probably made a balls up somewhere in it

It doesn't seem illogical to travel via Central London to get from Canterbury to Tilbury. That is the route suggested by the national rail enquiries that you take the HS1 to St Pancras, the Underground to Fenchurch Street and C2C to Tilbury. An explicit route if you leave the HS1 at Stratford is difficult to get, but if you ask the system how to get from Stratford International to Tilbury, it suggests DLR to West Ham to pick up the C2C. Not everyone is a fan of the Circle line so it's a route that might be used in practice by experienced travellers.

What is bizarre is that the fare from Canterbury to Tilbury is less than the fare from Canterbury to London St P despite the extra travel involved.

I have just looked up this Canterbury West to Tilbury Riverside journey on NRE and also get it suggesting to take the (admittedly direct) SET HS service to St Pancras, Circle line to Fenchurch Street and then on from there.

Thus, I would take that as suggesting the route is valid and that RJ seemingly shouldn't have any problems - or am I missing something here?

 

[maniacmartin]

Thus, I would take that as suggesting the route is valid and that RJ seemingly shouldn't have any problems - or am I missing something here?

Was NRE showing the TILBURY EXCL FERRY price for this itinerary?

 

[Draconian]

For any parties interested in the HS1 incident, the ticket purchased at the TVM in Canterbury West was to Tilbury Riverside (routed TILBY EXCL FERRY.)

When I was able to leave Ashford International after a 3.5 hour delay, I was armed with an itinerary from the ticket office showing HS1 as a valid route for the ticket I held. This was witnessed by the gateline assistant who was surreptitiously ordered to keep tabs on me and intercept me if I tried to walk towards the platforms. The OBM on the train was actually very pleasant and I reached Stratford International. I was then detained at the station for 100 minutes. Initially by the gateline assistant who refused to open the barriers and refused to let me go until I either gave her some money, or she had satisfactory proof that any name and address provided was correct. Neither she nor any member of staff present was PACE trained, Authorised Collectors or appear to hold any level of training or competency in revenue protection beyond operating the gateline. She obviously didn't feel in the slightest bit intimidated as she was happy to keep me there against my will. So I called the BTP. The staff then also called the BTP. In a few hours, I'd gone from staff trying to force me off trains, to staff forcibly keeping me there against my wishes. Since the previous evening, I'd gone from Southeastern's staff swearing blind that I was obliged to take the shortest route (or direct train) to them swearing blind the shortest route was not a permitted route. Consistent or what?

After almost 60 minutes, an officer arrived and sided with the staff. I was let through the barriers for a PNB and after I asked the BTP officer why he felt it was necessary to follow me into the toilet, asked what would happen if I walked away. He said I'd be arrested for fare evasion, so I was forced to remain at the station.

An RPI was dispatched from St Pancras and I was issued with a £68.40 Penalty Fare for being off route. I tried to help the RPI by advising him not to issue the Penalty Fare due to it being against the Penalty Fare Rules, but he chose not to listen to me so I didn't argue any further. I quite willingly tendered £50 up front and in return, the RPI decided to retain my ticket and felt he was justified in saying it was perfectly fine for me to have to pay even more for a new ticket to Tilbury. I convinced him to change his mind however (he said only because I was polite and cooperative) and so after a delay of over 5 hours, I was finally able to go about my business.

You certainly seem to attract the wrong kind of attention. The PF would be binned on appeal but I would advise calling three nines in future as B.e T.here P.erhaps are not the best at satisfactory resolutions. I hope you have a large collection of names for your legal actions although I can't quite figure how you managed to allow staff to treat you so appallingly without just "leaving" whichever environment you found yourself "held" in

 

[Crossover]

Was NRE showing the TILBURY EXCL FERRY price for this itinerary?

No idea - £27.80 Anytime Day Single undiscounted...gotta love the transparency of our fares structure!

 

[jon0844]

Jonmorris is apparently annoyed that somebody who was so incompetent as an RPI managed to get a promotion. Believe me Jon, you don't know the half of it! Only on the railway......

Not annoyed. I am quite glad he won't be able to bother me or others from the cab. Anyway, he's on the TL side!

It's not for me to decide how FCC deal with staff following complaints, but I bet it must frustrate other people who didn't get a job at Bedford because of it!

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Was NRE showing the TILBURY EXCL FERRY price for this itinerary?

It shows a price of £ 27.80 for travel tomorrow as Anytime Single with "any permitted" as the route. C2C are recommended as the ticket provider. If you only buy a ticket to take you as far as London St Pancras, the fare increases to £ 32.70 as Off Peak with the addition of "valid on HS1".

Checking the fare to my local station in FGW land came up with the same fare via Victoria and London St Pancras. However trying Upminster as an example of an East London station gave prices varying as to whether the HS1 route was selected.

I don't think any routes using the ferry are loaded onto NRE. If you try Gravesend to Tilbury you are given a journey of two hours or more via London. Anyone wanting to catch the ferry from Gravesend to Tilbury would find it cheaper to book to Gravesend and pay for the ferry separately. With the lack of information about the ferry on the NRE site, anyone not familiar with transport options in North Kent and South Essex might not even know such a route was possible. The last ferry is at about 7pm, so no use for evening travel.

 

[W-on-Sea]

Another incidental point: the ferry has just in the last month started using (with a few exceptions....mostly arrivals) a different pier in Gravesend, instead of the West Street one that has been its regular haunt for quite some time... Has this been widely publicised? Is the route to the new pier (or indeed the old one) clearly signposted from the station? I wonder...

 

[RJ]

What I love about this whole thread and what I alluded to earlier was that we're only hearing one side of the story again.

Funny how RJ's stories always have the same contents.

•I bought some ambiguous tickets.
•I got into an altercation with the Guard/TM/OBM.
• I did nothing wrong and was completely innocent.
•The said member of staff couldn't deal with me being ultra polite and called BTP.
•I'm hard done by.

Like someone else stated earlier this guy has had BTP out more in a few months than the whole of our depot has since Christmas.
I'm sorry but either he's really unlucky with the staff he's meeting or someone is telling porkies!!

I'm just unlucky then. Personally if I was in the staff's shoes, I wouldn't be coming on here to post my side unless it was to apologise. Unsurprisingly, not many people appear to be forthcoming in sharing how they judged and handled a situation completely incorrectly and were subject to formal disciplinary procedures for it.

 

[barrykas]

I don't think any routes using the ferry are loaded onto NRE.

That's not entirely surprising given that you can't currently buy a rail ticket that includes the ferry, hence there's no reason for it to appear in timetable data.

As a result of that NRE, WebTIS, Trainline and Raileasy will only show the more expensive "Any Permitted" fares for the journey described.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

As a result of that NRE, WebTIS, Trainline and Raileasy will only show the more expensive "Any Permitted" fares for the journey described.

On the Transport Direct website, clicking the button for Public Transport options gives one of the possible routes from Canterbury to Tilbury as using the ferry. An HS1 route offered as an alternative is via Stratford International and the DLR to West Ham.

 

[barrykas]

On the Transport Direct website, clicking the button for Public Transport options gives one of the possible routes from Canterbury to Tilbury as using the ferry. An HS1 route offered as an alternative is via Stratford International and the DLR to West Ham.

Transport Direct isn't an exclusively NR journey planner though, and if you put in something like Canterbury to Southend and force it to route via the ferry it quotes the fare from Canterbury to Gravesend and Tilbury to Southend separately.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Having sought clarification from c2c's Revenue Manager on the subject, he confirms that the intended route on the flows in question is indeed to go to Gravesend and use the ferry to Tilbury, but that the ferry fare is not included in the price of the ticket.

The difficult part is conveying that in the 16 characters allowed for the route field on a credit card sized ticket, and "TILBY EXCL FERRY" is probably the least worst way of doing so.

 

[island]

The thing is, the permitted routes for a ticket are defined by the National Routeing Guide, and not by random staff members of the TOC that sets the fare.

 

[455driver]

Jonmorris is apparently annoyed that somebody who was so incompetent as an RPI managed to get a promotion. Believe me Jon, you don't know the half of it! Only on the railway......

We have got a couple of new starters at one of our depots that are going to have "interesting" careers.

One of them reckons he doesnt need to route learn from Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour because he rides parts of it (as a passenger) most days and has also downloaded onto a train sim game!

 

[michael769]

One of them reckons he doesnt need to route learn from Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour because he rides parts of it (as a passenger) most days and has also downloaded onto a train sim game!

Would like to be a fly on the wall when the trainer asks him to stop at the next signal! (Don't think I need to be a driver to imagine what would happen next)

 

[flymo]

(Don't think I need to be a driver to imagine what would happen next)

Don't think I'd want to be a passenger either. hock:

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The difficult part is conveying that in the 16 characters allowed for the route field on a credit card sized ticket, and "TILBY EXCL FERRY" is probably the least worst way of doing so.

It would be very easy to interpret that wording to mean that you travelled via Tilbury but not on the ferry. That's how the South Eastern fares site interprets it.

If I'm travelling west, my ticket is usually Reading not London or an abbreviation thereof. If it said EXCL instead of not, you would interpret it the same way.

The South Eastern website also says that "ANY PERMITTED" is valid on HS1, adding a strange caveat that the journey has to be part of a "long distance through one" beyond St Pancras.

The following ticket descriptions entitle you to travel on high speed services:

ANY PERMITTED - in the case of long distance through tickets, i.e. destinations beyond St Pancras.

 

[455driver]

Would like to be a fly on the wall when the trainer asks him to stop at the next signal! (Don't think I need to be a driver to imagine what would happen next)

Although it might not be connected that depot is running out of DIs as they are all packing it in, it might be down to the fact that they always have trainees (and so never drive anymore) or the revised amount of paperwork they have to fill in but you never know.

I do wonder whether he will ever make it through the course though, people do get asked to leave or fail so it isnt a given that he will be successful at the training.

 

[maniacmartin]

The South Eastern website also says that "ANY PERMITTED" is valid on HS1, adding a strange caveat that the journey has to be part of a "long distance through one" beyond St Pancras.

I contacted SET about this a few months ago and they agreed it wasn't exactly true adn it would be fixed. It seems like they changed their mind

 

[notadriver]

We have got a couple of new starters at one of our depots that are going to have "interesting" careers.

One of them reckons he doesnt need to route learn from Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour because he rides parts of it (as a passenger) most days and has also downloaded onto a train sim game!

Ha ha very funny. However thinking about it what about trams ? One must can get a familiarity with the route as a passenger due to being able to see out front and watching the driver through the glass partition.

 

[W230]

What happens if you get arrested for fare evasion and it is later proved that you hadn't evaded the fare?

You get acquitted and can reclaim your defense costs.

Most likely would be the police simply releasing you due to insufficient evidence (or the CPS say bin it).

Remember though that being found "not guilty of fare evasion" is not the same as proving you did not commit fare evasion. You often hear people found not guilty saying they proved their innocence when really their guilt was simply not proved beyond all reasonable doubt.

In order for rj to be arrested, there would have to be grounds for it, such as him being violent or whatever. Obviously if the staff lie about this, then they may get in trouble with the police.

Or "to ensure a prompt and efficient investigation". Basically the police can arrest anyone for anything these days.

True, and i'm sure the necessity test is sometimes manipulated by officers in certain circumstances.

But generally speaking (and in practice) it is far better than the older system where certain offences carried either no power of arrest, were arrestable /serious arrestable offences because it means that a certain set of circumstances have to be fulfilled before officers will arrest someone. Assuming RJ behaved as he said (I have no reason to doubt him) and confirmed his identity then he is unlikely to fall foul of these general arrest conditions.

Furthermore, there is the ongoing assumption by many that a suspect is arrested by police as some form of punishment resulting from an alleged offence, when it is actually one method used as a means of questioning a suspect and gathering further evidence when there is insufficient evidence to charge.

 

[barrykas]

It would be very easy to interpret that wording to mean that you travelled via Tilbury but not on the ferry. That's how the South Eastern fares site interprets it.

I quite agree that it could be interpreted in that way, but the use of "EXCL" rather than "NOT", combined with 13 years in the industry, suggested to me that it should be treated differently.

The South Eastern website also says that "ANY PERMITTED" is valid on HS1, adding a strange caveat that the journey has to be part of a "long distance through one" beyond St Pancras.

Southeastern are a law unto themselves...But generally speaking, tickets from "London Terminals" are only valid on HS1 if explicitly routed that way, whereas longer distance ones are valid if routed Any Permiitted.

So, for example, Kentish Town - Ashford International has fares routed "Not Valid on HS1" and "Any Permitted", whereas London Terminals - Ashford International has "Not valid on HS1" and "Plus High Speed".

 

[MarlowDonkey]

So, for example, Kentish Town - Ashford International has fares routed "Not Valid on HS1" and "Any Permitted", whereas London Terminals - Ashford International has "Not valid on HS1" and "Plus High Speed".

No doubt, but the further you travel from St Pancras, the more likely you are to find just the one "Any Permitted" fare. That applies both to my local station out to the west of London and to Tilbury. So the suggestion on the SE website that you always need to pay a supplement to travel on HS1 is being economical with the truth.

I can understand those trying to game the system with obscure routes needing to carry a print of the itinerary to justify their choice of routes, but it really shouldn't be necessary for the leisure traveller on the obvious direct route.

 

[TonyR]

Remember though that being found "not guilty of fare evasion" is not the same as proving you did not commit fare evasion. You often hear people found not guilty saying they proved their innocence when really their guilt was simply not proved beyond all reasonable doubt.

You are not proved innocent. You are innocent until proved guilty. There is no such thing in law as not guilty but not innocent either aka got away with it.