Railway staff lying to the BTP

[bb21]

Now I shall sit here and await all the moderators defending thus post

If RJ uses valid tickets, he should rightly be defended, and the same will apply to every other person on this forum.

I am not the biggest fan of RJ's tactics, however if he pays for a ticket, then does everything by the book he has done nothing wrong. It is only right that he is treated the same as every other person who holds valid tickets.

 

[Zoidberg]

...

Why isit everytime someone does not agree with RJ on this topic all the moderators etc are jumping right in and defending him. As gets told to everyone else on these subjects "you got caught without a valid ticket therefore your breaking the law and are liable for a penalty fare" the same should go to RJ if his ticket is not valid and the inspectors explain why then hee is liable for a penalty fare

...

Is the point not that RJ has a valid ticket, it's just that some folk are not prepared to even check, let alone accept, its validity.

 

[londonboi198o5]

But (as far as I know) all of the cases involving RJ so far have been with valid tickets.

Wee only have oner person side of the story here so can't agree or disagree were is the evidence in this that it was valid. I work on railways and hear it all the time people buy cheap tickets then when you *ask to see ethem they go all quiet and the response " oh I didn't know sorry with a smirk on there face" or "the machine didn't tell me it was not valid"

No it's not. In your example, the ticket is not valid on a different train. In RJ's cases, the tickets are technically valid even if the routes are somewhat out of the ordinary,

So the high speed train he was on is not a different train is that what your saying. I'm sorry I disagree itis a different train. Tats why someone who buys a season ticket from Margate say spends x amount of pounds on the "surburban" line yet if they want to get a season ticket on the same route over the same journey on the the high speed line it costs more

Therefore I am sorry but as I meentioned before nothing against RJ his ticket is invalid

 

[bb21]

So the high speed train he was on is not a different train is that what your saying. I'm sorry I disagree itis a different train. Tats why someone who buys a season ticket from Margate say spends x amount of pounds on the "surburban" line yet if they want to get a season ticket on the same route over the same journey on the the high speed line it costs more

Therefore I am sorry but as I meentioned before nothing against RJ his ticket is invalid

I recommend that you familiarise yourself with the National Routeing Guide before carrying on any further as you are just digging a deeper hole with each post.

The purpose of the aforementioned document is set out in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage Condition 13(a)(iii).

 

[Deerfold]

So the high speed train he was on is not a different train is that what your saying. I'm sorry I disagree itis a different train. Tats why someone who buys a season ticket from Margate say spends x amount of pounds on the "surburban" line yet if they want to get a season ticket on the same route over the same journey on the the high speed line it costs more

Therefore I am sorry but as I meentioned before nothing against RJ his ticket is invalid

If RJ had a ticket stating "not valid via HS1" you'd be right. His ticket did not say this and the routeing guide allows his route (not that the ticket inspectors were willing to even consider that could be true).

I'm planning on a long distance trip in a week or so with a ticket along HS1 with my wife and a couple of friends.

Despite it being a valid (and not particularly cheap) route I'm worried about how we will be treated. That shouldn't be the case when holding valid tickets. There is no alternative "+HS1" ticket for the route I'm taking.

 

[maniacmartin]

So the high speed train he was on is not a different train is that what your saying

A different train to what? A ticket can be valid on multiple trains and routes.

 

[talltim]

That line of argument doesn't mean anything unfortunately.

In this case of course we know that SE are in the wrong, at least technically, as there is nothing on the ticket to indicate such a routeing restriction as they claim.

Londonboi's argument was that RJ must be wrong because SE are claiming he is. He is taking it that SE can't be wrong. I was asking him why he thinks RJ can't be right?

 

[bb21]

Londonboi's argument was that RJ must be wrong because SE are claiming he is. He is taking it that SE can't be wrong. I was asking him why he thinks RJ can't be right?

Point taken.

 

[island]

So the high speed train he was on is not a different train is that what your saying. I'm sorry I disagree itis a different train. Tats why someone who buys a season ticket from Margate say spends x amount of pounds on the "surburban" line yet if they want to get a season ticket on the same route over the same journey on the the high speed line it costs more

Therefore I am sorry but as I meentioned before nothing against RJ his ticket is invalid

What gives you that opinion? His ticket didn't say it was NOT VALID ON HS1.

 

[RJ]

No offense to RJ here

Why isit everytime someone does not agree with RJ on this topic all the moderators etc are jumping right in and defending him. As gets told to everyone else on these subjects "you got caught without a valid ticket therefore your breaking the law and are liable for a penalty fare" the same should go to RJ if his ticket is not valid and the inspectors explain why then hee is liable for a penalty fare

For someone who used to work on the railways he should know this. Its like when I buy cheap advance tickets for london to Manchester I can get a return for £ 20.00 but I MUST get the service I booked I can't get one a few hours earlier because my ticket is not for that service even though the same train goes the same route over the same track it is not valid. Which seems to be the repeated case in RJ threads he is buying these cheap tickets and thinks he can go to the. End of the world andd back. Isit not about time this thread get locked until RJ gets a final outcome

Now I shall sit here and await all the moderators defending thus post

There are a few misunderstandings on your part which I'd like to put right.

1. I presently work for the railways - not a past tense.

2. The tickets I use are valid for the journeys I undertake. You may feel that using a ticket from Canterbury West to Tilbury Riverside via Stratford International is going "to the. End of the world andd back" but it is permitted by the National Routeing Guide.

3. If the National Routeing Guide permits a ticket to be used for a journey, it is an open and shut matter, regardless of individual opinion on whether or not that route is reasonable. This is covered in Condition 13 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, which is referenced on all tickets, including those issued for use on HS1 services.

4. None of the situations in which I describe have involved the use of Advance tickets.

If you could start again based upon these facts, I'm quite prepared to engage in a more educated discussion about the matter.

 

[ModernRailways]

For someone who used to work on the railways he should know this. Its like when I buy cheap advance tickets for london to Manchester I can get a return for £ 20.00 but I MUST get the service I booked I can't get one a few hours earlier because my ticket is not for that service even though the same train goes the same route over the same track it is not valid. Which seems to be the repeated case in RJ threads he is buying these cheap tickets and thinks he can go to the. End of the world and back. Isit not about time this thread get locked until RJ gets a final outcome

But you would be buying an ADVANCE ticket which limits you but gives you the cheapest (sometimes) fare. Say you buy an anytime ticket, then it is valid on all services. RJ is using these off-peak/anytime/super off-peak tickets and exploiting loopholes in the routeing guides, which is completely legal. Some TOCs understand it and will apologise for what has happened and sometimes give compensation, other TOC's like South Eastern think that services along their line aren't part of the NRCOC and that they use their own set of rules.

I don't know RJ personally and have never met him, but I admire how he does it and if you bother to look in the routeing guide yourself then you would see (maybe after a few looks) just how he does it. I'd suggest you stop trying to think you know it, when clearly you don't.

It will definitely be interesting to see the outcome of this, and I can only hope RJ does something if South Eastern continue the way they are.

I've just bought a similar ticket that will use a loophole on EMT, and I can guarantee it will raise a few eyebrows, however I can only hope they will be like a member of East Coast staff who laughed and went 'Very good' he then came back after doing all his duties and asked me to show him how I did it. It's only with the help of members of this forum and doing my own research that I managed to learn how to do it and it's saved me about £50. I've only had one encounter with a bad guard, and even then all they did was say 'I haven't seen that before, and I don't think it is valid on this service' I pointed it out to him that it was showing him the relevant yellow pages and routeing maps, he told me he'd never seen them before but used his Avantix (?) to see if it was valid. Obviously his Avantix was showing a more expensive fare. After about 15 minutes he decided to say 'I'll let you off on this occasion, but if I see you again I'll be issuing you with an Unpaid Fares Notice. I have seen him since and he told me he'd done some digging around in his own time and realised it was valid. He then apologised. I'll admit I don't everything about the routeing guide, but I know what I need to know to prove my tickets are valid. If I do have an issue or query, a quick PM to one of the ticket advisers on here will be able to help me out.

 

[Crossover]

So the high speed train he was on is not a different train is that what your saying. I'm sorry I disagree itis a different train. Tats why someone who buys a season ticket from Margate say spends x amount of pounds on the "surburban" line yet if they want to get a season ticket on the same route over the same journey on the the high speed line it costs more

Therefore I am sorry but as I meentioned before nothing against RJ his ticket is invalid

Do you work for SouthEastern?! Like them, you appear to think the services are something special and not subject to all the regulations that are in place!

It has been mentioned before, the Margate ticket has a route HS1 and route NOT HS1, which is fair enough and a straightforward case.

There are many other tickets that are simply an "Any Permitted", with the High Speed 1 route being a permitted route (and shortest route in many cases) for this journey. This is what SET won't go with (dare I say, don't wish to believe!) and hence why this case continues.

I did what I'm sure many also did and go and look at the booking sites for the ticket RJ used and the itinerary shows a route via Ebbsfleet Int (thus HS1) - seems that neither this nor any discussion of the routing guide is enough to convince SET that they don't have a case.....

 

[RJ]

It's not too difficult, & quite cheap. If you want any info. then drop me a PM. Would you qualify for FIP travel?

Regrettably not. When I decide what exactly it is I will be doing, I'll be sure to take up your offer, thanks!

 

[BrownE]

I did what I'm sure many also did and go and look at the booking sites for the ticket RJ used and the itinerary shows a route via Ebbsfleet Int (thus HS1) - seems that neither this nor any discussion of the routing guide is enough to convince SET that they don't have a case.....

I also know that the TVMs will not tell you that this ticket (Canterbury Stations to Tilbury Riverside (route: Tilbury Excl Ferry)) is not valid on HS1 at any point in the booking process.

 

[hantsman1205]

No offense to RJ here

Why isit everytime someone does not agree with RJ on this topic all the moderators etc are jumping right in and defending him. As gets told to everyone else on these subjects "you got caught without a valid ticket therefore your breaking the law and are liable for a penalty fare" the same should go to RJ if his ticket is not valid and the inspectors explain why then hee is liable for a penalty fare

For someone who used to work on the railways he should know this. Its like when I buy cheap advance tickets for london to Manchester I can get a return for £ 20.00 but I MUST get the service I booked I can't get one a few hours earlier because my ticket is not for that service even though the same train goes the same route over the same track it is not valid. Which seems to be the repeated case in RJ threads he is buying these cheap tickets and thinks he can go to the. End of the world andd back. Isit not about time this thread get locked until RJ gets a final outcome

Now I shall sit here and await all the moderators defending thus post

I'm not a moderator, it does not matter if the ticket/tickets for the journey he makes cost 1p each, if their valid they are valid.......end of.

 

[jon0844]

How you're treated when you have a valid ticket, even if it might not appear so, IS a big deal.

It was a big deal when I was held until lunchtime on my way in to work by an RPI that was convinced you couldn't combine two Travelcards as there was a gap between the zones where I wasn't covered. (a Zone 1-3 TC + a Zone 4-6 TC, leaving nothing to bridge Z3 and 4). A totally ridiculous claim, but one I couldn't ignore as this was going forward as a fraud prosecution with the risk of a criminal record. As a result, I was with him and his rather passive colleague for around FOUR hours.

It was a big deal when I couldn't buy a ticket extension and got held and given a PF at the destination, on the basis that FCC operate penalty fares and I had to have a ticket before travel - and if I couldn't get one, should have got off the train along the way to buy the appropriate ticket.

I don't see any relevance to advance tickets, tickets that could be for the wrong day, tickets for the wrong class or whatever - it has nothing to do with RJ and how he has been treated for using valid, if rather obscure, tickets.

 

[Crossover]

I also know that the TVMs will not tell you that this ticket (Canterbury Stations to Tilbury Riverside (route: Tilbury Excl Ferry)) is not valid on HS1 at any point in the booking process.

Odd, that

 

[barrykas]

I also know that the TVMs will not tell you that this ticket (Canterbury Stations to Tilbury Riverside (route: Tilbury Excl Ferry)) is not valid on HS1 at any point in the booking process.

I suspect the converse is also true, however, in that they won't tell you that it is valid on HS1.

And a Ticket Office would probably give you their interpretation of what the routeing meant (or check with Southeastern) and stamp it "Restrictions Advised".

 

[Mojo]

I suspect the converse is also true, however, in that they won't tell you that it is valid on HS1.

Surely the sticker on the machine, and the text on the rear of the ticket, which states that tickets are issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage states that it is valid on Highspeed as far as Stratford It

 

[londonboi198o5]

Evening all

I feel I should post this here to clear the air

I wish to apologise to every member who has been posting in here a few of my posts seem to have been misread etc resulting in some heated discussions and I wish to clear the air and settle the matters raised.

I agree I may have misread various posts and wish to apologise to you all

I am not a bad person as anyone who knows me will agree I am one nicest people you will meet

We all have bad days and toiday is mine I am sorry

I hope you can all accept this

 

[district]

I also know that the TVMs will not tell you that this ticket (Canterbury Stations to Tilbury Riverside (route: Tilbury Excl Ferry)) is not valid on HS1 at any point in the booking process.

They have 'patched' this so pressing the 'i' next to the route on the route selector screen comes up with:

Excluded locations:
Stratford Int SE
Stratford

(or similar)

 

[soil]

Odd, that

If you buy a Canterbury - Gravesend ticket, intending to take the Tilbury ferry, you have two choices:


"NOT VALID ON HS1"

or

"EBSFLET+HSNOTLON"

So you're right, it is a bit odd.

 

[RJ]

Evening all

I feel I should post this here to clear the air

I wish to apologise to every member who has been posting in here a few of my posts seem to have been misread etc resulting in some heated discussions and I wish to clear the air and settle the matters raised.

I agree I may have misread various posts and wish to apologise to you all

I am not a bad person as anyone who knows me will agree I am one nicest people you will meet

We all have bad days and toiday is mine I am sorry

I hope you can all accept this

Don't worry about it. As I've said in the past, I sympathise it is quite difficult to believe these stories at first glance, especially when it is being inferred that a company comprising of time served professionals doesn't seem to know what it's talking about. Regrettably, this is the case and it wouldn't be the first time.

There are two things I am fundamentally opposed to - one being charlatanism at all levels, the other being corporate circumvention of established rules and procedures in place to protect all, for the selfish benefit of the firm.

I am not afraid to call anyone, at any level out on unethical practices. Regardless of grade or length of service, if you don't understand the contents of the NRCoC then you have no business telling me (or other staff) that my ticket isn't valid, which is something the retail management department would be well advised to start thinking about. Southeastern are not doing themselves any favours by upholding the pretence they they are selectively exempt from Schedule 24 (the NRCoC) of their franchise agreement.

I'm also quite alarmed at their lacklusture attitude towards illegally detaining their customers. I lodged a formal complaint about this in some detail. Two weeks on, I've not had so much as an acknowledgement from their MD and I had a response from their Customer Relations department which completely ignored that element of the complaint. I telephoned their Customer Relations department today and the person on the other end was adamant that only "Plus High Speed" tickets were valid on that service.

 

[Zoidberg]

Evening all

I feel I should post this here to clear the air

I wish to apologise to every member who has been posting in here a few of my posts seem to have been misread etc resulting in some heated discussions and I wish to clear the air and settle the matters raised.

I agree I may have misread various posts and wish to apologise to you all

I am not a bad person as anyone who knows me will agree I am one nicest people you will meet

We all have bad days and toiday is mine I am sorry

I hope you can all accept this

Ah, you had one of those days. I think we've all had one at some point.

Put it behind you and enjoy the website.

 

[BrownE]

They have 'patched' this so pressing the 'i' next to the route on the route selector screen comes up with:

Excluded locations:
Stratford Int SE
Stratford

(or similar)

It certainly didn't as of 2215 last night!

 

[district]

It certainly didn't as of 2215 last night!

It doesn't pop up, but if you use a TVM from Canterbury East, and press the 'i' next to ''Tilbury excl Ferry'' it does have the excluded locations.

 

[barrykas]

If you buy a Canterbury - Gravesend ticket, intending to take the Tilbury ferry, you have two choices:


"NOT VALID ON HS1"

or

"EBSFLET+HSNOTLON"

So you're right, it is a bit odd.

For bonus points, the fares from Canterbury - Gravesend are more expensive than those from Canterbury - Tilbury(!)...which c2c tell us are intended to be used via Gravesend and the ferry, but which don't include the ferry fare. Good innit?

 

[Paul Kelly]

They have 'patched' this so pressing the 'i' next to the route on the route selector screen comes up with:

Excluded locations:
Stratford Int SE
Stratford

(or similar)

Very interesting. This appears to have been added to the fares database on 8th January this year. It doesn't affect the validity of the ticket via Stratford though, since

The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.

These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.

If they're not shown on the ticket, they're unenforceable IMHO.

 

[jb]

Southeastern are not doing themselves any favours by upholding the pretence they they are selectively exempt from Schedule 24 (the NRCoC) of their franchise agreement.

This is the worst bit of the whole piece. Fingers-in-ears "la-la-la" from an individual member of staff, in the heat of the moment, is one thing. But this is corporate persistence, in the cold light of day, having had time to think about it.

I can't countenance the idea that there aren't people within SE who know they are in the wrong, so it seems clear that the issue is either not referred to such people, or they are kept silent. Neither is especially palatable.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Surely the changes noted on the ticket machine demonstrate that SET are willfully making up the rules as they go along? Having their machines state on them that a valid route is invalid is at best disingenuous and at worst deception.

Should someone then use that route SET would point to their ticket machine and its incorrect advice as proof that they are right and you and your conditions of carriage are wrong.

But I suppose we can all understand SETs need to recover its massive £0 investment in HS1

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