Railways Of The Past In Today's Railway Network

[Class20]

Firstly I apologise if this is in the wrong area of the form. I’ve wanted to start this thread for a while but I’ve been unsure as to where to put it as it’s a mix of old and new.

I’ve been thinking recently about how the railways of the past would work with today’s railway network. If closed lines or junctions were still open today, how would they be served in the railway network that operates now? What services would run (both passenger and freight if applicable), who would run them and what trains might they use. Also how might the lines have affected the history of the railways, would certain things have happened, or not happened, if a particular line had remained open? I’m not being serious with this and clearly there isn’t a right or wrong, just a case of what people think might be today. It will be interesting to see what people come up with.

I do ask that it’s made clear what closed line or junction you are talking about. Not everyone is clued up on the railways of the past.

To start things off I’ll keep it simple and go with the Preston – Longridge line that use to run through Deepdale and Grimsargh. The last trains to use the line were in the 1990s with coal trains to the sidings at Deepdale. In today’s world I think the passenger service would most likely be operated by Northern with its mix of units working all stations stopping services, may be as an extension of the Ormskirk service. Freight wise, the Red Scar industrial estate would probably be the only source of traffic, maybe with a small rail terminal.

 

[JamesRowden]

On my recent trip from Reading to Shoreham By Sea I thought about how useful the closed Guildford-Horsham and Horsham-Shoreham By Sea lines would have been if they hadn't been closed in the 1960s.

If it were still open I suspect that it would presently be unelectrified and hourly with one of the following options:

• Guildford-Horsham-Shoreham By Sea
  • Southern
  • 171 Operated
• Guildford-Horsham-Shoreham By Sea-Brighton
  • Southern
  • 171 Operated
• Reading-Guildford-Horsham-Shoreham By Sea-Brighton
  • First Great Western / Southern
  • 165/166/171 Operated
• Manchester/Newcastle-Birmingham-Reading-Guildford-Horsham-Shoreham By Sea-Brighton
  • Cross Country
  • 220/221 Operated

 

[yorksrob]

The best approach to this question I think is to look at routes that were listed for closure but were reprieved.

For example, I suspect that many of the closed routes in Sussex, such as the Tonbridge - Brighton and Eastbourne - Oxted via Heathfield might have ended up like the Marshlink from Ashford to Hastings, i.e. rationalised with most of the stations unstaffed, but ticking over nicely. Some of the longer lines might have survived as basic railways, such as the East Suffolk route.

 

[Tracked]

If the Woodhead route and Sheffield Victoria had still been open would it make it easier for the EMT services that currently have to reverse on their way to/from Liverpool?

 

[Welshman]

No - I don't think they would have had to reverse, as I think they could have continued from Sheffield Victoria via Darnall to Killamarsh, to gain the line to Chesterfield Midland.

But even better - had the GC still been open throughout, they could have continued to Nottingham Victoria and then gained the Grantham line via London Rd High Level.

 

[Bevan Price]

If the Woodhead route and Sheffield Victoria had still been open would it make it easier for the EMT services that currently have to reverse on their way to/from Liverpool?

1. If Woodhead route was still open & electrified, it is unlikely that there would be many (or any) Norwich / Nottingham - Liverpool services.

2. Assuming they allowed some dmus under the wire, the best route would have been via Grantham, Nottingham Victoria, GC route to Sheffield Victoria, then Woodhead route - assuming that they could have improved the track quality on the GCR route south of Sheffield, which before closure was badly affected by mining subsidence & afflicted by long sections of low speed tsrs.
However, I doubt that it would have been much more than 3 or 4 trains per day, with Class 323s operating hourly between Manchester & Sheffield. Also, a limited Cleethorpes - Manchester service might operate via Woodhead if that was the principal passenger route between Sheffield & Manchester.


3. Running from Chesterfield (Midland) to Sheffield would take about 10 minutes longer to Victoria than to Sheffield Midland, cancelling out any gain by eliminating the current need to reverse at Sheffield (Midland).

4. It would have been necessary to improve the Woodhead route, to permit higher speeds that the previous 60/65 mph maximum.

5. The only benefit would seem to be making more paths available between Sheffield, Dore and the Hope Valley line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Firstly I apologise if this is in the wrong area of the form. I’ve wanted to start this thread for a while but I’ve been unsure as to where to put it as it’s a mix of old and new.

I’ve been thinking recently about how the railways of the past would work with today’s railway network. If closed lines or junctions were still open today, how would they be served in the railway network that operates now? What services would run (both passenger and freight if applicable), who would run them and what trains might they use. Also how might the lines have affected the history of the railways, would certain things have happened, or not happened, if a particular line had remained open? I’m not being serious with this and clearly there isn’t a right or wrong, just a case of what people think might be today. It will be interesting to see what people come up with.

I do ask that it’s made clear what closed line or junction you are talking about. Not everyone is clued up on the railways of the past.

To start things off I’ll keep it simple and go with the Preston – Longridge line that use to run through Deepdale and Grimsargh. The last trains to use the line were in the 1990s with coal trains to the sidings at Deepdale. In today’s world I think the passenger service would most likely be operated by Northern with its mix of units working all stations stopping services, may be as an extension of the Ormskirk service. Freight wise, the Red Scar industrial estate would probably be the only source of traffic, maybe with a small rail terminal.

Longridge & other stations served fairly low populations. I think that the passenger services ceased in the 1930s, indicating it would probably now be "basket case" finances. I think the most you could expect was an infrequent service operated by Class 153s - maybe about 2 to 4 trains per day at the most. To minimise pathing problems, it would probably use "Platform 7" at Preston.

 

[Harpers Tate]

From a track layout point of view (and ignoring any pathing issues that might occur at, say, Nunnery), EMT services could proceed through Sheffield Midland without reversing using the current layout, if they cared to. Towards Liverpool, they could take the route via Barrow Hill, Beighton, Woodhouse and arrive in Sheffield facing the "right way" for a Liverpool departure via the Hope Valley. Presumably it's operationally easier, or more efficient from a scheduling point of view, to reverse.

 

[Welshman]

At least one service goes that way - the last Liverpool-Nottingham.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C60700/2013/12/20/advanced

Though I suspect for route-retention purposes rather than operational difficulties in reversing at Sheffield at that time of night.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

What about the Somerset & Dorset, reopening for all of part of the route?

Also as mentioned the Deepcar/Woodhead route and Redmire/Hawes/Garsdale.

 

[ian1944]

What about the Somerset & Dorset, reopening for all of part of the route?

An hourly Pines Express between Bournemouth and Manchester?

 

[afyutr]

Longridge & other stations served fairly low populations. I think that the passenger services ceased in the 1930s, indicating it would probably now be "basket case" finances. I think the most you could expect was an infrequent service operated by Class 153s - maybe about 2 to 4 trains per day at the most. To minimise pathing problems, it would probably use "Platform 7" at Preston.

I would have thought this train would have been very well used. There are 6 buses per hour at peak times on the parallel route to the old railway (3ph off I think) and in the last few years weekend night buses have been introduced. I always thought some sort of light rail avoiding the peak hour traffic that hampers buses would work particularly well. I guess this will now never happen due to the new M6 junction build.

 

[Bevan Price]

I would have thought this train would have been very well used. There are 6 buses per hour at peak times on the parallel route to the old railway (3ph off I think) and in the last few years weekend night buses have been introduced. I always thought some sort of light rail avoiding the peak hour traffic that hampers buses would work particularly well. I guess this will now never happen due to the new M6 junction build.

Longridge, Grimsargh & Ribbleton have a total population of about 17,000. Not really enough to justify a frequent rail service. And the buses present a problem - they take passengers a slightly closer to the main part of Preston city centre than the railway station.

Although the train would be faster, an infrequent train service always has problems competing with fairly frequent bus services. (And I suspect that the busiest part of the bus service will be in the Preston suburbs, rather than at the Longridge end of the route.)

 

[daddsie71b]

What about the Somerset & Dorset, reopening for all of part of the route?

Also as mentioned the Deepcar/Woodhead route and Redmire/Hawes/Garsdale.

Poole to Templecombe, but without a sensible connection (Exeter bound) cannot see the worth of it. On the northern section Shepton Mallet to Bath as a commuter line.
Nice to dream but I cannot see much traffic generated from the line itself to justify reopening