Railways To Go Metric

[Emyr]

All they are doing by perpetuating Imperial Units is using daft non-decimal multiples of the metric units.

You mean non-integer multiples? An inch being 2.54mm is definitely decimal.

 

[Hyphen]

any modern digital road signage would be trivial to convert to show metric measurements.

It seems it's already been done at the point of design.

The documentation publicly available for the Advanced Motorway Indicator (AMI), the new above-lane sign on Smart Motorways (or whatever they're called today), was designed to display speed restrictions in blocks of 10 up to "120".

I'd spent ages wondering why they'd do that (were they planning to raise the limit to 120mph?), but thanks to starrymarkb's conversion table, it makes sense that they've baked in the ability to go up to 120km/h, the rough metric equivalent of 70mph.

 

[apk55]

Practicaly all machinary, appliances cars etc are designed in metric as they are for an international market. This would include railway equipment.

Our maps are also in metric, the OS grid reference system is based on a 1km grid

 

[hassaanhc]

It seems it's already been done at the point of design.

The documentation publicly available for the Advanced Motorway Indicator (AMI), the new above-lane sign on Smart Motorways (or whatever they're called today), was designed to display speed restrictions in blocks of 10 up to "120".

I'd spent ages wondering why they'd do that (were they planning to raise the limit to 120mph?), but thanks to starrymarkb's conversion table, it makes sense that they've baked in the ability to go up to 120km/h, the rough metric equivalent of 70mph.

70mph is actually ~112.7kmh, so closer to 110kmh (vs 120kmh which is ~74.5mph)

 

[AE]

You mean non-integer multiples? An inch being 2.54mm is definitely decimal.

Sorry it was late. By non-decimal, I meant not powers of 10.

 

[DownSouth]

You soon get used to the approximations if you have an MPH gauge, I've driven a bit on the continent and soon had the approximate limits sussed. Bear in mind that most speedos overread the speed so you would be safe using these!

...

I bought a classic Mini here in Australia which still has the original printed card in the back of the speedometer, and it's not hard to drive appropriately. When I first got the car I printed out a conversion table and stuck it to the dashboard, but it only took a few drives to get accustomed to it.

I always round down to the nearest 5 mph when I drive the Mini, because I worked out that the speedo is close enough to correct at any speed over about 20mph (below which it reads low).

It's likely that in the UK we'd use 30, 50, 70, 80, 100 & 120km/h, but the other limits are common abroad.

Unfortunately, here in metric (formerly Imperial) Australia we have many speed limits in use here (25, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110 and in the Northern Territory also 130 and unrestricted) as a result of governments attempting to micro-manage driving instead of improving the standard of driver training.

The best option, in my opinion would be to have the following limits which would be predictable, rather than frequent speed limit changes:
20 km/h - for areas around schools, hospitals, shopping strips and the like where there are lots of pedestrians.
40 km/h - standard limit for streets.
60 km/h - standard limit for normal roads.
80 km/h - roads in country areas, and dual carriageways in urban areas only if they have bike lanes and no directly facing properties.
100 km/h - standard limit for highways with sealed shoulders, pedestrians and cyclists protected by physical buffers, and the maximum speed for heavy vehicles.
120 km/h - dual carriageway freeways with full grade separation of all junctions and full segregation (i.e. fenced off or using a parallel corridor) for pedestrians and cyclists.

The 'standard' urban speed limit where not otherwise signposted in Australia is currently 50 km/h, but previously it was 60 km/h. This change was a touch annoying with the old 1990 Toyota Camry that I was driving at the time, because it sat right on 60 quite comfortably, but 50 was in that awkward zone of being too fast for third gear but too slow to engage the overdrive. Getting the new Skoda with its DSG full of many ratios was absolute bliss after the former frustration of driving with a 'dumb' torque converter auto.

70mph is actually ~112.7kmh, so closer to 110kmh (vs 120kmh which is ~74.5mph)

If the road conditions are suitable, 120 km/h may be a good 'top limit' post-conversion, because it would allow the use of speed limits exclusively in 20 km/h increments.

Didn't a NASA mission to Mars fail because of that - some parts were Imperial and others were metric and it threw the calculations off?

I did read that, but never got round to checking Snopes or the like to see if that was an urban myth.

It was for real - Lockheed supplied software for the ground control of the Mars Climate Orbiter which gave an output referring to thruster performance in pound-force.seconds, while the NASA software was expecting newton.seconds as demanded in the specification given to Lockheed.

Don't bother with Snopes, go straight to the NASA report.

 

[Wolfie]

The move to metric would be part of the move to the new in-cab signalling technology. Lineside posts would be replaced by digital balises in the four foot, which the train will read as it runs over them and from it read the speed limit for that section of track. Anything stored on computer (i.e. basically everything, these days) would be trivial to convert to kilometres an hour, so all printed documentation wouldn't be a challenge either.

My bold

120cm surely

What an utterly ridiculous article. Factually it is wrong on a number of counts:

1. It is a common misconception (in the case of the Daily Mail who know better it is an out-right lie) that the EU has the power to make us use the metric system. The EU's competence here only applies when goods or service cross a national border within the EU.

2. The legal basis establishing the requirement to use metric measures in the UK is founded in a number of Weights and Measures Acts passed by the UK parliament - not the EU. Indeed the requirement to use the metric system under a number of circumstances was passed into law long before we even joined the EU or EEC as it was then. Indeed there are only three countries on the planet where the metric system is not the official method of measurement, and the UK ain't one of them! Yes, in some cases we are required by Europe to use metric, but as noted above this only applies when services cross borders within the EU.

3. The European Railway Agency has no power to issue European-wide directives. These can only be approved collectively by national ministers. Indeed for the DfT to claim they asked for an opt-out in 2012 (as the article suggests) is ridiculous and an out-right lie, given the transport minister would have been the one who approved the measure in the first place!! (I could do into a detailed explanation of how EU policies are made, but there isn't the space here, nor I doubt would anyone really care).

4. The decision to use metric here, as part of the ERTMS trial, seems to be a Network Rail decision and not an EU decision. Furthermore it only seems to be limited to those areas where ERTMS is being tested, so the vast majority of the network is staying in miles and chains, for the moment at least.

In terms of the substance of the article:

1. Given the metric system has been taught in schools over imperial measurement since the late 1980s, I imagine most Network Rail engineers are well versed in what a metre or kilometre is. Thus to claim it is a safety risk because no one knows what a kilometre is is ridiculous. I fail to believe there is anyone under the age of 50 who cannot work in metric.

2. Given the article is about equipment for ERTMS, Network Rail are having to procure equipment which is being used Europe wide. Not only is it logical that we all use the same system, but if we were to ask for special UK-specific imperial equipment to be manufactured just for us it would no doubt drive up the cost.

3. Quite frankly if railway staff cannot manage basic imperial to metric conversions, then this is more of a poor reflection on their own ability. Network rail should not be employing engineers who cannot work in metric and Arriva should at the very least be offering basic training to their drivers.

4. The article suggests trains have been passing red signals... I thought these no longer existed under ERTMS? Even so unless there was a fault with the train's brakes it is most likely this is down to driver error rather than the nasty EU.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Given the changes are being made as party of a resignalling and improvement of the line in question, the status quo was never going to be retained and the costs and disruption would have been there regardless.

My bold

I started primary school in 1967 and was taught in metric. I am fed up to the back teeth with the sort of complete BS the Daily Heil and Mr Fromage (it'll be interesting to see how he does in a General Election against the guy he stole his act from - the Pub Landlord!) come out with. Imperial measurements (which in many cases aren't even the same as their so-called equivalents in the US) are non-intuitive and whole generations of kids (the silent ones no doubt!) have been educated in them... let's at least join the 20th century!

 

[TheKnightWho]

Apparently, former transport minister Philip Hammond apparently replaced 'Labour's kilometre' with miles in department reports soon after the last election, but the only news links I can find which report it were in the Daily Mail and Express so I wouldn't be sure as to the reliability

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25219

I really can't see reason *not* to switch over, other than a bit of confusion during the process.

To actually revert back to miles is clearly trying to make a nationalistic point.

 

[Zoidberg]

There is an article in the local paper expressing fears about safety due to metrication. However, it doesn't explain to me why the metrication trial has caused the signals to be passed at danger.

From

http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...re-metric-test-trains-go-through-red-signals/

Five trains have jumped red lights on a line through Shropshire and Mid Wales – because of a trial scheme to turn Britain’s railway system to metric.

...

The Cambrian line, which runs from Shrewsbury, has been used as a test bed for a new system in which mile markers are replaced with kilometres.

But train drivers have criticised the trial as a “total mess” and warned it creates an “unacceptable risk” to passengers.

And from the same article, from a response by Arriva Trains Wales

Arriva Trains Wales, which runs the Cambrian line service, confirmed there were "a small number" of incidents during the early months of the pilot in 2011, but disputed the suggestion that the change from metric to imperial measures was irresponsible.

...

She added there had been no incidents since 2012.

Gosh, is a newspaper reporting old news and getting the wrong end of the wrong stick?

 

[Proud Salopian]

Ah the Shropshire Star... it's a prime rural rag. Ignore it.

I do have a question (which may have been raised in this thread already - I haven't read through it all, sorry) about heritage lines: does this EU directive affect them? Can they continue to use miles, chains and yards for all purposes as they (presumably most do) now?

I'm in favour of our national network switching over to metric, but I feel that our heritage lines should remain imperial, at least if they (individually) want to.

 

[Wolfie]

Ah the Shropshire Star... it's a prime rural rag. Ignore it.

I do have a question (which may have been raised in this thread already - I haven't read through it all, sorry) about heritage lines: does this EU directive affect them? Can they continue to use miles, chains and yards for all purposes as they (presumably most do) now?

I'm in favour of our national network switching over to metric, but I feel that our heritage lines should remain imperial, at least if they (individually) want to.

I'm inclined to agree just as long, of course, as such heritage railways are completely isolated from the National Rail system and there is no cross-working (including use of heritage stock on National Rail) whatsoever...

I slightly disagree re the Shropshire Star - it was better when it was more independent - the cost-cutting, which means most of it is now produced in Wolverhampton by Express and Star journalists, hasn't helped its quality and accuracy one little bit...

Oh, it was in the Shropshire (now Telford and Wrekin) primary school system that I was taught in metric back in the mid-late 60s.....

 

[Llanigraham]

There is an article in the local paper expressing fears about safety due to metrication. However, it doesn't explain to me why the metrication trial has caused the signals to be passed at danger.

From

http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...re-metric-test-trains-go-through-red-signals/



And from the same article, from a response by Arriva Trains Wales



Gosh, is a newspaper reporting old news and getting the wrong end of the wrong stick?

What a complete load of "tosh" from the Star!! As usual!!

The whole article is 4 years out of date, totally inaccurate and factually incorrect.

 

[TDK]

What a complete load of "tosh" from the Star!! As usual!!

The whole article is 4 years out of date, totally inaccurate and factually incorrect.

It obviously hasn't, metrification including using KMH vice MPH will not affect driving as a matter of fact it is on the right side as the speed boards will show a higher rating so there fore if the line speed is say 40mph now it will then show 60kph or there abouts if the driver is in autopilot as they say reading the speedo they will only be doing 40kph which is slower so the risk will be very low. It is human nature do have a decimal system with everything we learned to count using our fingers and thumbs and that equals 10 so the imperial measurement system was a farce as far as I am concerned.

 

[fairysdad]

Unfortunately, here in metric (formerly Imperial) Australia we have many speed limits in use here (25, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110 and in the Northern Territory also 130 and unrestricted) as a result of governments attempting to micro-manage driving instead of improving the standard of driver training.

The best option, in my opinion would be to have the following limits which would be predictable, rather than frequent speed limit changes:
20 km/h - for areas around schools, hospitals, shopping strips and the like where there are lots of pedestrians.
40 km/h - standard limit for streets.
60 km/h - standard limit for normal roads.
80 km/h - roads in country areas, and dual carriageways in urban areas only if they have bike lanes and no directly facing properties.
100 km/h - standard limit for highways with sealed shoulders, pedestrians and cyclists protected by physical buffers, and the maximum speed for heavy vehicles.
120 km/h - dual carriageway freeways with full grade separation of all junctions and full segregation (i.e. fenced off or using a parallel corridor) for pedestrians and cyclists.

To be honest, I wouldn't put it past the UK government to go Metric with speed limits just by saying 'Right, that's a 30mph road, now it's a 30kph road; that's a 40mph road, now it's a 40kph road; <etc> that's a 70mph road, now it's a 70kph road'. After all, speed kills don't you know... :roll:

 

[Ironside]

To be honest, I wouldn't put it past the UK government to go Metric with speed limits just by saying 'Right, that's a 30mph road, now it's a 30kph road; that's a 40mph road, now it's a 40kph road; <etc> that's a 70mph road, now it's a 70kph road'. After all, speed kills don't you know... :roll:

That is simultantiously a stupid and brilliant idea.

 

[Gareth Marston]

It obviously hasn't, metrification including using KMH vice MPH will not affect driving as a matter of fact it is on the right side as the speed boards will show a higher rating so there fore if the line speed is say 40mph now it will then show 60kph or there abouts if the driver is in autopilot as they say reading the speedo they will only be doing 40kph which is slower so the risk will be very low. It is human nature do have a decimal system with everything we learned to count using our fingers and thumbs and that equals 10 so the imperial measurement system was a farce as far as I am concerned.

It should have been entitled give my members a £4K pay increase and a cut in the working week to cope with the stress! Brother Mick in screw the TOC's mode.

 

[edwin_m]

It should have been entitled give my members a £4K pay increase and a cut in the working week to cope with the stress! Brother Mick in screw the TOC's mode.

They would only get 4K Euros though, which is worth a lot less £ than it was last week.

 

[transmanche]

They would only get 4K Euros though, which is worth a lot less £ than it was last week.

About £40.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

It obviously hasn't, metrification including using KMH vice MPH will not affect driving as a matter of fact it is on the right side as the speed boards will show a higher rating so there fore if the line speed is say 40mph now it will then show 60kph or there abouts if the driver is in autopilot as they say reading the speedo they will only be doing 40kph which is slower so the risk will be very low. It is human nature do have a decimal system with everything we learned to count using our fingers and thumbs and that equals 10 so the imperial measurement system was a farce as far as I am concerned.

You can count to twelve on one hand which is very handy.
Count the 3 parts of your fingers with a open hand (ignore thumbs unless counting in 14s/16s). That's how I count. Add two parts of your hand amd two thumb bits for Hexadecimal counting which in my opinion makes the most sense.
I have to add that I have no problem with going metric.
I see people getting confused trying to convert different weights, capacity and speeds too often.

 

[DelW]

Presumably if this does go ahead (if it's not just a Mail on Sunday invention), it would give an opportunity to rationalise the distance measurement system, which at the moment is a muddle of pre-grouping, let alone pre-Beeching, systems. Mileages jump or change direction at long forgotten junctions, for just one example almost the whole Cambrian line is measured from Whitchurch via a long closed line from there to Welshpool.

For anyone who has to do calculations using distances, metric is far easier. As an engineer working in Britain for an American company, if I have to do calculations for US colleagues, I have to add sections into my standard spreadsheets to convert US to SI units, do the calculations in SI, and convert the answers back. It would be nearly impossible (for me, anyway) to devise a spreadsheet to do engineering calculations in US units. I have no idea how they do it in the US, but as far as I know, Excel has no facility to work in non-decimal units.

 

[D6975]

Appalling decision.

The InterCity 125 will have to become an InterCity 201.168, and this is bound to cause more confusion with the InterCity 225, as there will be no such compunction to change its name, and even if it did change its name to avoid such confusion, becoming the InterCity 360 will then only get mixed up with the 360kph speak of HS2!

Doomed I tell you.

InterCity 125 stopped being used donkey's years ago, strange how it persists despite being dropped from all advertising etc. (It was the introduction of Intercity 225 that prompted withdrawal of the 125 term)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have no idea how they do it in the US, but as far as I know, Excel has no facility to work in non-decimal units.

Yes it does.
You can work in fractions if you really want to.
(I don't - metric is the way to go)

 

[L&Y Robert]

Thought they had already decided recently to retire the obsolete chains.

Whilst trying to establish the distances between various features on the Borders Railway, I noticed that the engineers drawings had the CHAINAGE given, all from some common baseline somewhere. However, after a bit of confusion about what this meant, I worked out that the values were in METRES. Took me a little time to sort this out! So the chainage is in metres! Hmmm.

 

[transmanche]

Whilst trying to establish the distances between various features on the Borders Railway, I noticed that the engineers drawings had the CHAINAGE given, all from some common baseline somewhere. However, after a bit of confusion about what this meant, I worked out that the values were in METRES. Took me a little time to sort this out! So the chainage is in metres! Hmmm.

My dictionary defines chainage as:

1. (surveying) An imaginary line used to measure distance, often corresponding to the centre of a straight road.
2. (surveying) A distance measured along such a line.

So the modern usage has lost the connection with the unit 'chain' and it's now just a term for distance used by surveyors.

 

[edwin_m]

I believe "chainage" comes from the historic practice of measuring distances by using chains of known length, presumably one chain long! It is indeed now the pretty much universal civil engineering term for linear distance along a particular route, measured from a defined datum point.

 

[AM9]

I believe "chainage" comes from the historic practice of measuring distances by using chains of known length, presumably one chain long! It is indeed now the pretty much universal civil engineering term for linear distance along a particular route, measured from a defined datum point.

Just like one day, we will say that the mileage on our car is NNNNNKm.

 

[transmanche]

Just like one day, we will say that the mileage on our car is NNNNNKm.

As people in Australia (and probably many other places) already do.

 

[DownSouth]

As people in Australia (and probably many other places) already do.

Any use of 'mileage' here in Australia is dying out now that it is 41 years ago when the switch took place - and would probably do the same in the UK about the same time afterwards. People who've never driven with Imperial units tend to say a car 'has 130,000 kilometres on the clock' or 'it's done 210,000 kilometres.'

Fuel economy is expressed in litres of fuel used per 100 kilometres driven, with a combined cycle of 6-8 L/100km (35-47 mi/UKgal) being common for standard passenger cars. L/100km is far more intuitive than miles/gallon (or kilometres/litre) because it works on multiplication rather than division - even the USA has recognised this and now has economy expressed in GalUS/100mi on new car window stickers.

 

[DelW]

Yes it does.
You can work in fractions if you really want to.
(I don't - metric is the way to go)

So it can, I'd never explored that. But it's quite limited, won't even work in twelfths (for feet and inches) let alone eightieths for miles and chains.

"Chainages" were already measured in metres by the time I was setting out roads and motorways in the 1970s. The most common survey chains (which had all disappeared by my time) were divided into 100 links, making each link just under 8" long.

 

[Trog]

Presumably if this does go ahead (if it's not just a Mail on Sunday invention), it would give an opportunity to rationalise the distance measurement system, which at the moment is a muddle of pre-grouping, let alone pre-Beeching, systems. Mileages jump or change direction at long forgotten junctions, for just one example almost the whole Cambrian line is measured from Whitchurch via a long closed line from there to Welshpool.

Have you given any thought as to how much it would cost to change the mileages on all the historic records for the lines you want to re-mileage?
Or staff would have to remember what the conversion factor was for every changed line, it would be a nightmare if you had to work out a lot of mileages on a line with a shifted 0MP and reversed direction.

 

[transmanche]

Have you given any thought as to how much it would cost to change the mileages on all the historic records for the lines you want to re-mileage?
Or staff would have to remember what the conversion factor was for every changed line, it would be a nightmare if you had to work out a lot of mileages on a line with a shifted 0MP and reversed direction.

What happened on lines which have been converted from miles to metric? Such as LU, T&W Metro and DLR (which all have sections which run over former rail routes)?