Random termination points

[30907]

Again this is an origin point, but I came across a train to Victoria arriving into Balham once than had come from Wimbledon of all places.

The direct route via Streatham Jns has been used during engineering work.
The less direct route was via Sutton-W Croydon-C Palace and was the normal routing of the service from Holborn/Blackfriars for many years (long before Thameslink).

 

[Kent99]

It shows how obscure that branch was, when I haven't even heard of any of the place names on it (besides Chudleigh Knighton, which I remember being signposted from the A38 - likely the double-barreled and typically Devonian character of the place name caused me to remember it). Alphington must certainly be a very small place, I'd imagine!

Alphington was definitely a small place back then, but today it's quite a large suburb of Exeter

 

[topydre]

One of the most bizarre examples would have to be the decision to terminate Seaford trains at Horsted Keynes and electrify the Ardingly branch to this purpose!

 

[nw1]

One of the most bizarre examples would have to be the decision to terminate Seaford trains at Horsted Keynes and electrify the Ardingly branch to this purpose!

That was strange, yes (before my time but have read about it).

Was that the sole reason to keep this branch open, to give the Seaford services somewhere to terminate? While I am not a fan of closures, it's a strange one to understand as neither Ardingly nor Horsted Keynes seem to be particularly big places (both are, IIRC, moderate-sized villages); would a turn-back siding have served the purpose more cheaply?

 

[30907]

That was strange, yes (before my time but have read about it).

Was that the sole reason to keep this branch open, to give the Seaford services somewhere to terminate? While I am not a fan of closures, it's a strange one to understand as neither Ardingly nor Horsted Keynes seem to be particularly big places (both are, IIRC, moderate-sized villages); would a turn-back siding have served the purpose more cheaply?

The route was double track right through to East Grinstead and had as many trains north of HK as Eridge-Hailsham, so there was no obvious plan to close t
it - indeed, the SR proposed to electrify through to South Croydon via Oxted in their "final fling" postwar scheme (possible prewar too).

As well as operational convenience, I presume there were savings in running costs (1 loco and coaches vs 1 EMU) to offset the modest capital cost.

 

[Gloster]

My understanding was that the EMUs continued to Horsted Keynes as terminating and crossing them over at Hayward’s Heath would block a busy main line for an inconveniently long time. I don’t know Hayward’s Heath, but a look at old maps on the nls site suggests that rebuilding to accommodate terminators would have been quite a major operation. And unless you rebuild both sides, you can still have problems.

 

[Snow1964]

That was strange, yes (before my time but have read about it).

Was that the sole reason to keep this branch open, to give the Seaford services somewhere to terminate? While I am not a fan of closures, it's a strange one to understand as neither Ardingly nor Horsted Keynes seem to be particularly big places (both are, IIRC, moderate-sized villages); would a turn-back siding have served the purpose more cheaply?

There was a plan to quadruple the Brighton line further, but it was realised the Ouse Valley viaduct etc would be very difficult and expensive to do.

I have read somewhere that it was intended to electrify the Croydon - East Grinstead - Horsted Keynes section instead as an alternative route to Brighton. It was apparently on Herbert Ashcombe Walker (Southern Railway chair) intended schemes, but the rolling electrification of the 1930s didn’t get there due to WW2 breaking out.

 

[bramling]

There was a plan to quadruple the Brighton line further, but it was realised the Ouse Valley viaduct etc would be very difficult and expensive to do.

I have read somewhere that it was intended to electrify the Croydon - East Grinstead - Horsted Keynes section instead as an alternative route to Brighton. It was apparently on Herbert Ashcombe Walker (Southern Railway chair) intended schemes, but the rolling electrification of the 1930s didn’t get there due to WW2 breaking out.

I seem to remember that the Brighton electrification scheme managed to get a couple of extras in on the basis that they were able to be fed from existing substations. Horsted Keynes was fed from the mainline, same applies to Reigate - neither required any additional substations, so the extra cost was fairly minimal.

 

[RPI]

For several years there were one or two trains per day from St Ives during the summer months that terminated at Lelant Saltings.

Does the current Barnstaple to Axminster service count?

Yeovil Pen Mill from London Waterloo.

In the 90's there was a shuttle that ran to Barnt Green from either Bromsgrove or Worcester, was a single 153.

 

[Magdalia]

Does the current Barnstaple to Axminster service count?

Yeovil Pen Mill from London Waterloo.

0140 Waterloo-Yeovil Junction and 1703 Exeter-Axminster were in the 1974 timetable.

 

[BeijingDave]

For several years there were one or two trains per day from St Ives during the summer months that terminated at Lelant Saltings.

Does the current Barnstaple to Axminster service count?

Yeovil Pen Mill from London Waterloo.

In the 90's there was a shuttle that ran to Barnt Green from either Bromsgrove or Worcester, was a single 153.

Barnt Green makes some sense as it's a junction that offers a connection from a branch line. There are plenty of examples, really, where a junction in a smaller settlement provides a service to a larger settlement. Although Bromsgrove should arguably have its own dedicated service to Birmingham.

I would say not as 'random' as places like Marsden and Greenfield, cited earlier, which were only termination points that resulted from being at the edge of a PTE area. Marsden, especially, which had a much better connection to Huddersfield and distant Leeds than Manchester (which is where you would assume people from around there would actually want to be better connected to for work and leisure).

 

[Iskra]

Adwick is pretty random.
Hazel Grove for many years appeared random on DMU services from Blackpool, but of course makes sense on electric trains.
Ribblehead is also seemingly a very random evening destination from Leeds, but makes sense operationally. I always wonder how many people in Leeds even know where it is.
Sellafield too, although it probably made sense at times in terms of worker demand.
Recently (don't know if it's still going?) Carnforth on trains from Skipton- why stop just short of the nearest city?

 

[Starmill]

Adwick is pretty random.
Hazel Grove for many years appeared random on DMU services from Blackpool, but of course makes sense on electric trains.
Ribblehead is also seemingly a very random evening destination from Leeds, but makes sense operationally. I always wonder how many people in Leeds even know where it is.
Sellafield too, although it probably made sense at times in terms of worker demand.
Recently (don't know if it's still going?) Carnforth on trains from Skipton- why stop just short of the nearest city?

The service from the Skipton direction that terminated at Carnforth was because it was looped for quite some time between Carnforth and Lancaster, enough to be overtaken by the service from Barrow-in-Furness a few minutes behind it at Carnforth. It wouldn't have been any use to passengers if it had continued.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Recently (don't know if it's still going?) Carnforth on trains from Skipton- why stop just short of the nearest city?

Seems to be the 0641 on weekdays from Bradford Forster Square, arrives and terminates Carnforth at 0826.

What then happens to the unit?

 

[Iskra]

The service from the Skipton direction that terminated at Carnforth was because it was looped for quite some time between Carnforth and Lancaster, enough to be overtaken by the service from Barrow-in-Furness a few minutes behind it at Carnforth. It wouldn't have been any use to passengers if it had continued.

How come it lost its path into Lancaster in the first place though? Seems weird when the railway hasn't been running at full capacity? It still is an inconvenience to passengers off the Bentham Line, I wonder how many are put off by the additional change and time penalty? I did Carnforth-Preston on that Barrow service in January and while waiting only 4 passengers alighted the Carnforth terminator.

Seems to be the 0641 on weekdays from Bradford Forster Square, arrives and terminates Carnforth at 0826.

What then happens to the unit?

When I saw it in January it shunted into the sidings South of Carnforth next to the WCRC Depot and then I assume it forms a service back to Skipton. Bradford Forster Square-Carnforth is a very random origin and destination pair.

 

[Starmill]

How come it lost its path into Lancaster in the first place though?

Well in short it didn't.

In December 2020 there was a 0522 Skipton to Lancaster arriving 0631. This service is unchanged for the May 2022 timetable.

Back then however there was a 0720 Leeds to Lancaster, due to depart from Skipton at 0759 and into Lancaster at 0913. Of course, that choice of arrivals, 0631 or 0913, was something which stakeholders have for some time called for improvement over as it wasn't exactly brilliant if you needed to be in Lancaster for around 0900. So the second service was brought forward to depart from Skipton at the earlier time of 0725 and arrive at Carnforth at 0826. The connecting service to Manchester Airport arrives in Lancaster at 0844. This brings arrival in Manchester an hour earlier too, and with a second change at Preston, arrival in Birmingham and London an hour earlier also.

The former 0641 Bradford Forster Square to Skipton service was amended so that it's now worked by the DMU for the Carnforth service, so it now runs as a 0641 Bradford Forster Square to Carnforth.

I'm not surprised that the number of people using it is in the single figures. It is a quiet route which serves only really the Aire towns and the gathering of small villages in the hills. Passengers from Leeds are unlikely to be going that way because they need to leave Leeds at 0626 in order to change at Shipley for the Carnforth service.

 

[Iskra]

Well in short it didn't.

In December 2020 there was a 0522 Skipton to Lancaster arriving 0631. This service is unchanged for the May 2022 timetable.

Back then however there was a 0720 Leeds to Lancaster, due to depart from Skipton at 0759 and into Lancaster at 0913. Of course, that choice of arrivals, 0631 or 0913, was something which stakeholders have for some time called for improvement over as it wasn't exactly brilliant if you needed to be in Lancaster for around 0900. So the second service was brought forward to depart from Skipton at the earlier time of 0725 and arrive at Carnforth at 0826. The connecting service to Manchester Airport arrives in Lancaster at 0844. This brings arrival in Manchester an hour earlier too, and with a second change at Preston, arrival in Birmingham and London an hour earlier also.

Thank you for the explanation. I agree that that is actually a service improvement then in some ways, although of course as always there will be losers too.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Seems to be the 0641 on weekdays from Bradford Forster Square, arrives and terminates Carnforth at 0826.

What then happens to the unit?

Answering my own question, seems that the unit from Bradford Forster Square proceeds forward from Carnforth to Lancaster as an 0828 ECS movement, arriving 0849. At some point near to Carnforth South Junction, it's held for maybe 11 minutes so that it can be overtaken by the 0747 Barrow-in-Furness -> Manchester Airport service, which will have arrived just a few minutes behind it at Carnforth at around 0837.

After continuing and arriving and then sitting in platform 1 at Lancaster for the best part of an hour, the unit then returns in service as the 0941 to Leeds (via Skipton).

 

[richard1976]

There is one train a week that terminates at Meadowhall

Realtime Trains | 0912 Retford to Meadowhall | 26/06/2022

Real-time train running information for 0912 departure from Retford to Meadowhall on 26/06/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[IanXC]

Well in short it didn't.

In December 2020 there was a 0522 Skipton to Lancaster arriving 0631. This service is unchanged for the May 2022 timetable.

Back then however there was a 0720 Leeds to Lancaster, due to depart from Skipton at 0759 and into Lancaster at 0913. Of course, that choice of arrivals, 0631 or 0913, was something which stakeholders have for some time called for improvement over as it wasn't exactly brilliant if you needed to be in Lancaster for around 0900. So the second service was brought forward to depart from Skipton at the earlier time of 0725 and arrive at Carnforth at 0826. The connecting service to Manchester Airport arrives in Lancaster at 0844. This brings arrival in Manchester an hour earlier too, and with a second change at Preston, arrival in Birmingham and London an hour earlier also.

The former 0641 Bradford Forster Square to Skipton service was amended so that it's now worked by the DMU for the Carnforth service, so it now runs as a 0641 Bradford Forster Square to Carnforth.

I'm not surprised that the number of people using it is in the single figures. It is a quiet route which serves only really the Aire towns and the gathering of small villages in the hills. Passengers from Leeds are unlikely to be going that way because they need to leave Leeds at 0626 in order to change at Shipley for the Carnforth service.

Answering my own question, seems that the unit from Bradford Forster Square proceeds forward from Carnforth to Lancaster as an 0828 ECS movement, arriving 0849. At some point near to Carnforth South Junction, it's held for maybe 11 minutes so that it can be overtaken by the 0747 Barrow-in-Furness -> Manchester Airport service, which will have arrived just a few minutes behind it at Carnforth at around 0837.

After continuing and arriving and then sitting in platform 1 at Lancaster for the best part of an hour, the unit then returns in service as the 0941 to Leeds (via Skipton).

I think this service also moves Bradford Forster Square out of the 'all trains are electric' club.

In theory the Bradford to Carnforth could continue forward, being overtaken, and terminate at Lancaster, except that for it to be overtaken it has to use a Goods Loop (so no passenger trains are allowed without special authority, usually only given for one off movements).

 

[xotGD]

I think this service also moves Bradford Forster Square out of the 'all trains are electric' club.

Which it wasn't in for long, as there used to be a morning service from Skipton that was a Pacer.

 

[Iskra]

Which it wasn't in for long, as there used to be a morning service from Skipton that was a Pacer.

I think there has traditionally always been an early morning DMU service covering all of the Aire Valley routes to keep crews trained on DMU’s as well as the electric units they normally operate.

 

[D854_Tiger]

Was looking at some marshalling documents (on the brcoachingstock groups.io group) the other day and I noticed one unusual service: the 1717 Manchester-Didcot IC service from 1981/2.

It looks like it was an LM set, and worked empty to Oxley after terminating at Didcot, which is presumably why it didn't do the obvious thing and continue to Reading. Nonetheless, if there was demand for Oxford one might expect it to terminate at Oxford instead, but maybe terminating the train there would have caused disruption at a station with only two through platforms (as the loco would have to run round), so it was sent on to Didcot instead.

So any other examples of apparently 'random' termination points? I am excluding extensions to cover peak services (e.g. a Manchester-Bristol then becoming a stopper to Weston-super-Mare in the evening peak) as that has been covered in another thread.

There was a period during the late 60s and early 1970s when Birmingham Moor Street became a very quiet affair.

Snow Hill had gone, the tunnel closed and just the North Warwickshire locals terminated there (the Leamington line locals terminated at New Street).

A precursor for the attempted closure of the North Warwickshire line and hence closure of Moor Street itself. The off-peak service was just one train an hour with alternate trains terminating at Henley in Arden and Stratford.

However, one morning rush hour train arrived in from Didcot and then immediately returned, a strange working given that by that time everything else was using New Street, rumour had it that is was worked by a class 123 Inter City DMU.


Fast forward to the 1990s, there was a summer only all day limited stop New Street - Stratford service, via Hatton, at the time normally peak only.

I took a ride intending to return to New Street to catch the peak time commuter extra running only as far as Tamworth (it turned out to be the same set that had taken me to Stratford), reason being it was one of only a very few trains routed via Whitacre Junction and the Kingsbury loop.

Thing is I never did understand how the train terminated at Tamworth, after dropping off the passengers it just disappeared to the north.

During the mid to late 90s, there was a morning peak train that started back at Worcester that terminated at Solihull, even tho it still had to run thro to Dorridge to turn back, and there was a morning peak train from Dorridge which terminated at Jewellery Quarter, then running ecs to periodically Queens Head, or Langley Green to turn around to run ecs to Birmingham Snow Hill to go back into service.

I'm old enough to remember the early 1970s and those peak time Snow Hill to Langley Green workings that terminated in the bay platform.

The bay was on a short freight only branch to a local chemical works.

At the time, Snow Hill was the largest unstaffed halt in the country with just a few peak time services to Wolverhampton and Langley Green, everything else on the Stourbridge line worked into New Street.

 

[jfollows]

However, one morning rush hour train arrived in from Didcot and then immediately returned, a strange working given that by that time everything else was using New Street, rumour had it that is was worked by a class 123 Inter City DMU.

In the 6/3/67 to 5/5/68 timetable I see

• 2M50 06:35 DMU Reading to Moor Street 09:09 SX 09:18 SO
• 2V77 10:25 DMU Moor Street to Didcot (Heyford W.R. 11:51)

No indication in the working timetable of the booked type of DMU.

 

[richard1976]

I know the regular police deal with Sheffield Supertram but what happend on there Tram/Train if something happens when running on network rail tracks or on the platforms at Rotherham Central station or Parkgate Station (both owned by Network Rail)

 

[Magdalia]

However, one morning rush hour train arrived in from Didcot and then immediately returned

In the 6/3/67 to 5/5/68 timetable I see

• 2M50 06:35 DMU Reading to Moor Street 09:09 SX 09:18 SO
• 2V77 10:25 DMU Moor Street to Didcot (Heyford W.R. 11:51)

In the early 1960s the down working was a through DMU from Didcot to Wolverhampton Low Level. It returned as 10.10am Snow Hill to Reading.

I lose track until 1973 when I have the WR PTT. The down train was still running, but to Moor Street, and starting Oxford on Saturdays. But I can't find a balancing up working, apart from a 1955 New Street to Oxford.

a strange working given that by that time everything else was using New Street

Possibly some confusion here? The first all line timetable, in 1974, has daytime trains to/from Leamington Spa using Moor Street but evening services using New Street.

In 1976 the morning working starts from Reading, and the evening working becomes 2000 from Moor Street, the evening services at Moor Street having been reinstated (presumably a WMPTE thing).

In 1977 the morning service started from Slough SX, and the evening train was 2000 Moor Street to Reading.

My recollection from this period is WR 3 car Pressed Steel suburban DMUs were the usual traction. I did once see the morning train with Snow Hill in the destination blind.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I would say not as 'random' as places like Marsden and Greenfield, cited earlier, which were only termination points that resulted from being at the edge of a PTE area. Marsden, especially, which had a much better connection to Huddersfield and distant Leeds than Manchester (which is where you would assume people from around there would actually want to be better connected to for work and leisure).

That particular boundary has always been awkward, as there's no overlap between the boundary stations like there is between West Yorkshire and South Yorkshire. As a result during the 1980s and early 1990s, Manchester seemed like some far-off exotic destination to us in the Colne Valley. For almost all leisure activity and shopping we looked towards Huddersfield- or Leeds for the bigger stuff. The villages of Slaithwaite and Marsden weren't really ideal for people with jobs in Manchester unless you were prepared to drive.
This began to change in the early 1990s (I forget exactly when) when the stopping services began to be operated out of Manchester Victoria to Wakefield Westgate. From then on, the only Marsden terminators outside of engineering blocks were one late in the evening each day, and all Sunday services which were an extension of the Leeds to Huddersfield stopper.

 

[jfollows]

In 1977 the morning service started from Slough SX, and the evening train was 2000 Moor Street to Reading.

My recollection from this period is WR 3 car Pressed Steel suburban DMUs were the usual traction. I did once see the morning train with Snow Hill in the destination blind.

Ah, yes, 2M90 06:13 Slough / 07:33 Oxford arrived Moor Street 09:09 SX / 09:14 SO, went empty to Tyseley as 5H69 at 09:20 from Moor Street.
There was 2H50 17:30 SX Moor Street - Leamington 2H50 18:02 SO Moor Street - Leamington which worked 5V99 18:50 ECS Leamington - Banbury for 2V99 19:50 Banbury - Paddington. And 2V60 20:00 Moor Street - Reading as you say.
All from the 2/5/77 to 7/5/78 working timetable.

 

[D854_Tiger]

In the 6/3/67 to 5/5/68 timetable I see

• 2M50 06:35 DMU Reading to Moor Street 09:09 SX 09:18 SO
• 2V77 10:25 DMU Moor Street to Didcot (Heyford W.R. 11:51)

No indication in the working timetable of the booked type of DMU.

That's the one, 1967 - 1968 timetable, I knew it operated for some years before the Snow Hill tunnel closed, and guessed it probably terminated at Moor Street for congestion reasons, though certainly not by 1967.

By summer 1967 all the main line workings from Snow Hill had gone, freight I believe also, and for just one more year the tunnel remained open for peak time only workings and probably empty stock as Snow Hill still maintained an all day service to Wolverhampton and I believe one or two through to Wellington. In 1968 the tunnel finally closed and Snow Hill became a car park for most of the day with just a handful of trains at peak times lingering on till 1972.

In 1972 Snow Hill was closed and around the same time the High Court refused permission for the Moor Street - Stratford line to be closed. By just one day, one day later and the eventual revival of the Moor Street Snow Hill route might never have been possible. Snow Hiil became a car park, eventually the station was demolished and then the great and the good spent several years wondering what to do with site until someone suggested it might be great place to build a railway station.

Hand on heart, if anyone had told me that once again loco hauled main line expresses would leave Snow Hill for London i would have said it's you that's loco.

Snow Hill was never my station, our trains went to New Street, but on three precious occasions as a kid I did get to see and use it, including an express to London hauled by something modern, maroon and quite beautiful and now I can relive that great day albeit with a rather nice sounding Caterpillar.

Trouble is, as I now realise, the Euston route is actually the rather more prettier of the two.

There's even a rather wonderful clip on Youtube of a Deltic passing through on its way to the SVR, you just couldn't make that up.

 

[Magdalia]

Ah, yes, 2M90 06:13 Slough / 07:33 Oxford arrived Moor Street 09:09 SX / 09:14 SO, went empty to Tyseley as 5H69 at 09:20 from Moor Street.
There was 2H50 17:30 SX Moor Street - Leamington 2H50 18:02 SO Moor Street - Leamington which worked 5V99 18:50 ECS Leamington - Banbury for 2V99 19:50 Banbury - Paddington. And 2V60 20:00 Moor Street - Reading as you say.
All from the 2/5/77 to 7/5/78 working timetable.

Thanks. Starting in 1975 there was also a very early morning Banbury-Moor Street. In 1977 that was 0700SO and 0715SX. But I don't know if it was an LMR unit empty from Leamington Spa or a WR unit empty from Oxford.