RANT:XC overtaking at Derby - no announcement!!

[BanburyBlue]

I was travelling from Nottingham to Banbury this afternoon. The Trainline suggested taking the Nottingham to B’ham XC service and then changing at Derby onto the XC York to Reading service (there by avoiding a change at New St). - fair enough .

So departed on the 14.04. When I arrived at Derby, the information screens were showing that the 14.53 to Reading was delayed by 20 mins or so. This then meant that the 14.53 (now showing as arriving at 15.13) was due to depart after the 15.10 (ex-Nottingham to B’ham New St). Both were departing from plat 4a.

I had a dilemma at this point. Did I jump on the 15.10, conscious that it had 3 stops before New St hence the 14.53 may well be on its tail by New St (meaning a potential sprint around New St to get the delayed 14.53). Or wait for the 14.53 knowning that quite often, once a train is late they just get later and later.

The 15.10 duly arrived, so I hovered around to try to work out what the situation was with the 14.53.

At 15.08 the 14.53 just disappeared from the information screen!! There were absolutely no announcements, it just disappeared!! So, I thought, I’d better jump on the 15.10 and take my chances at New St. - either catch the 16.04 (ex Manchester to Bournemouth), or running over to Moor Street for a Chiltern service. So, imagine my surprise while waiting for the 15.10 to depart, when a XC Voyager appeared on my right on platform 3. So they held the 15.10 for 4 mins, to allow the 14.53 to overtake it.

This was now a lovely double whammy! Not only had I missed my direct train to Banbury, but as the 15.10 was now running 5 minutes late, I was facing a 1 minute interchange time at New St to get from P10 to P2 to catch the Manchester train.

I was astounded! As we were leaving Derby, the train manager appeared.

I said “excuse me, were we delayed to allow the Reading train to pass?”
Reply “yes sir”
I said “but there was no announcement”
Reply “they don’t always sir”
I said “yes, but I was going to catch that train”
Reply “well, it wasn’t my decision, so not my fault, bye”.

Totally underwhelming- at the least I would have expected a “let me check your onward travel options”. But nothing!

I’m not sure who is to blame?
- CrossCountry - after all, their trains.
- Network Rail (signalling) - guess they arranged the overtake.
- EMT - for not making the announcement at Derby station.

Things sort of worked out okay-ish in the end. The driver managed to pull back the 5 minutes between Tamworth and New St, so had 5 minutes to get from P10 to P2 (mind you, I still haven’t worked out the new layout at New St so not sure that was an advantage). As I missed the direct train ended up standing in the vestibule between Birmingham and Banbury. But hey ho, normal XC service.

Right, rant over! Now relaxed after a glass of red or two

 

[yorkie]

Did you ask staff at Derby?

Unless a member of staff at Derby had advised me to get on the stopper (which would have been very unlikely) I would have followed my itinerary and boarded the correct train at Derby.

I see no benefit to remaining on the stopper to New Street so I don't understand why that was even considered to be honest, or is there something I am missing?

 

[BanburyBlue]

No.

To be honest it was the disappearance of the Reading train off the board that flummoxed me. I had 1 minute to make a decision. And the platform was hardly overrunning with EMT staff!

I just assumed it was more bad news - more delays or even a cancellation.

 

[swt_passenger]

No.

To be honest it was the disappearance of the Reading train off the board that flummoxed me. I had 1 minute to make a decision. And the platform was hardly overrunning with EMT staff!

I just assumed it was more bad news - more delays or even a cancellation.

Did it disappear throughout the station or just on that expected platform? In other words was it a silent platform alteration with no auto announcement.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Did it disappear throughout the station or just on that expected platform? In other words was it a silent platform alteration with no auto announcement.

Again, I don’t know. I didn’t have time to look at the main screens.

There were continual announcements (on platform 4) that the 14.53 was late. But as I said, absolutely no ‘change of platform’ announcements.

The platform boards were saying “1st train 15.10 Birmingham New Street, 2nd 14.53 (due 15.13), 3rd xx.xx (can’t remember the time) Plymouth.

Then went to “1st 15.10 Birmingham, 2nd xx.xx Plymouth”

 

[Skymonster]

Seems like the Reading is normally booked Platform 4 at Derby, as is the Nottingham-Birmingham. However, today the Reading was switched to Platform 3 - presumably to enable it to pass and run ahead of the stopper, and also explaining why it disappeared from the platform screens. What seems to be lacking is an announcement of the switch of the Reading from 4 to 3.

I have found that EMT platform staff at Derby are rarely aware of short-notice regulating decisions made by the signalling centre - for example, a recent one I had:
1011 - EMT 222 Derby-Sheffield running 8 late
1016 - AXC 220 Derby-Sheffield running right time
Asked the staff will Cross Country definitely go first - answered yes, so I get on the Cross Country. Did it buggery go first - it was held for the EMT to run ahead of it, even though both only stopped Chesterfield.

For what it's worth, I've read somewhere (maybe even on here) that New Street are keen for trains to be presented in the correct running order when reasonable / possible, which may explain the decision to delay the ex-Nottingham to run in its correct sequence - as well as the ex-Nottingham likely making more stops and slowing down the Reading further.

 

[bb21]

Surely in your case the best course of action if you weren't sure and couldn't find anyone nearby was to wait by a set of doors of the stopper so that should it be given the go-ahead first you could promptly board?

 

[yorkie]

Again, I don’t know. I didn’t have time to look at the main screens.

There were continual announcements (on platform 4) that the 14.53 was late. But as I said, absolutely no ‘change of platform’ announcements.

The platform boards were saying “1st train 15.10 Birmingham New Street, 2nd 14.53 (due 15.13), 3rd xx.xx (can’t remember the time) Plymouth.

Then went to “1st 15.10 Birmingham, 2nd xx.xx Plymouth”

That would indicate to me that it had changed platform. However the change of platform would be shown on summary departure screens and I'd expect an announcement.

If there was no announcement made in such a circumstance, I would look for departure screens (OK in reality I'd check on my phone, but if that wasn't an option...) which would have shown the platform alteration.

I would also have definitely gone for the 1453 regardless of which train was advertised as going first.

I've not been to Derby during the ongoing works but on previous visits I've not had any issues finding summary departure screens. But if on this occason there were no visible staff, no summary screens and no announcement in sight then that is really bizarre and warrants a complaint.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The Derby partial blockade does seem to be playing havoc with XC at the moment, last Saturday I was doing a Wakefield to Sutton Parkway run (which only involved XC due to the strike on ARN) and was rather miffed that I had passed within spitting distance of Nottingham an hour before getting there! The Voyager I was on kept losing time on approach to Derby (but there were zero announcements or explanations from the on-board staff) on a magical mystery tour round the East Midlands... meaning I had a 153 back to Nottingham rather than the hoped-for 170.

Sometimes things go wrong, I accept that... but XC seem pretty rubbish for information and customer service, with EMT not much better.

 

[Deafdoggie]

mind you, I still haven’t worked out the new layout at New St

Always use the "B" end for platform transfers. Even if both trains are "A" end it is still much quicker. If exiting the station, and you don't need a specific exit, use the one on the "B" end direct from the platforms to Navigation Street, always quieter. Simples.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Seems like the Reading is normally booked Platform 4 at Derby, as is the Nottingham-Birmingham. However, today the Reading was switched to Platform 3 - presumably to enable it to pass and run ahead of the stopper, and also explaining why it disappeared from the platform screens. What seems to be lacking is an announcement of the switch of the Reading from 4 to 3.

I have found that EMT platform staff at Derby are rarely aware of short-notice regulating decisions made by the signalling centre - for example, a recent one I had:
1011 - EMT 222 Derby-Sheffield running 8 late
1016 - AXC 220 Derby-Sheffield running right time
Asked the staff will Cross Country definitely go first - answered yes, so I get on the Cross Country. Did it buggery go first - it was held for the EMT to run ahead of it, even though both only stopped Chesterfield.

For what it's worth, I've read somewhere (maybe even on here) that New Street are keen for trains to be presented in the correct running order when reasonable / possible, which may explain the decision to delay the ex-Nottingham to run in its correct sequence - as well as the ex-Nottingham likely making more stops and slowing down the Reading further.

Yes agreed. I have no issue with the Reading train overtaking the Birmingham stopper - would hope they'd do it more often. The amount of times I've been stuck behind a Coventry - New Street stopper when my XC northbound train has been delayed.

Just a shame they didn't tell anyone.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Surely in your case the best course of action if you weren't sure and couldn't find anyone nearby was to wait by a set of doors of the stopper so that should it be given the go-ahead first you could promptly board?

That was my course of action? My preference would have been to wait for the Reading train. When it disappeared from the board with 2 minutes before the Birmingham stopper left, I thought I'd better jump on that.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Always use the "B" end for platform transfers. Even if both trains are "A" end it is still much quicker. If exiting the station, and you don't need a specific exit, use the one on the "B" end direct from the platforms to Navigation Street, always quieter. Simples.

Thanks - I'll remember that next time.

 

[43055]

I was travelling from Nottingham to Banbury this afternoon. The Trainline suggested taking the Nottingham to B’ham XC service and then changing at Derby onto the XC York to Reading service (there by avoiding a change at New St). - fair enough .

So departed on the 14.04. When I arrived at Derby, the information screens were showing that the 14.53 to Reading was delayed by 20 mins or so. This then meant that the 14.53 (now showing as arriving at 15.13) was due to depart after the 15.10 (ex-Nottingham to B’ham New St). Both were departing from plat 4a.

I had a dilemma at this point. Did I jump on the 15.10, conscious that it had 3 stops before New St hence the 14.53 may well be on its tail by New St (meaning a potential sprint around New St to get the delayed 14.53). Or wait for the 14.53 knowning that quite often, once a train is late they just get later and later.

The 15.10 duly arrived, so I hovered around to try to work out what the situation was with the 14.53.

At 15.08 the 14.53 just disappeared from the information screen!! There were absolutely no announcements, it just disappeared!! So, I thought, I’d better jump on the 15.10 and take my chances at New St. - either catch the 16.04 (ex Manchester to Bournemouth), or running over to Moor Street for a Chiltern service. So, imagine my surprise while waiting for the 15.10 to depart, when a XC Voyager appeared on my right on platform 3. So they held the 15.10 for 4 mins, to allow the 14.53 to overtake it.

This was now a lovely double whammy! Not only had I missed my direct train to Banbury, but as the 15.10 was now running 5 minutes late, I was facing a 1 minute interchange time at New St to get from P10 to P2 to catch the Manchester train.

I was astounded! As we were leaving Derby, the train manager appeared.

I said “excuse me, were we delayed to allow the Reading train to pass?”
Reply “yes sir”
I said “but there was no announcement”
Reply “they don’t always sir”
I said “yes, but I was going to catch that train”
Reply “well, it wasn’t my decision, so not my fault, bye”.

Totally underwhelming- at the least I would have expected a “let me check your onward travel options”. But nothing!

I’m not sure who is to blame?
- CrossCountry - after all, their trains.
- Network Rail (signalling) - guess they arranged the overtake.
- EMT - for not making the announcement at Derby station.

Things sort of worked out okay-ish in the end. The driver managed to pull back the 5 minutes between Tamworth and New St, so had 5 minutes to get from P10 to P2 (mind you, I still haven’t worked out the new layout at New St so not sure that was an advantage). As I missed the direct train ended up standing in the vestibule between Birmingham and Banbury. But hey ho, normal XC service.

Right, rant over! Now relaxed after a glass of red or two

Having been at Derby station a lot have picked up a few things. When the old PSB was around the signaller had a radio in which short notice alterations could be told in which all the staff would know immediately. I am guessing the signaller now has to ring the station for all the platform changes in which there might be no staff in the supervisors office to answer the phone for the change of platform at that particular moment yesterday. As for announcements, I don't know as Digital Doris normally picks them up and announces the change.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Having been at Derby station a lot have picked up a few things. When the old PSB was around the signaller had a radio in which short notice alterations could be told in which all the staff would know immediately. I am guessing the signaller now has to ring the station for all the platform changes in which there might be no staff in the supervisors office to answer the phone for the change of platform at that particular moment yesterday. As for announcements, I don't know as Digital Doris normally picks them up and announces the change.

I must admit, it did get me thinking how the whole thing works.

Would it be a purely signaller's decision to allow one train to go in front of another?

And who is in charge of the announcements and destination boards? I always assumed these were automated and not in control of the station staff - don't know why?

 

[yorkie]

Would it be a purely signaller's decision to allow one train to go in front of another?

there could be a policy of holding the stopper for no more than a specific time e.g. it may be 5 minutes.

 

[43055]

I must admit, it did get me thinking how the whole thing works.

Would it be a purely signaller's decision to allow one train to go in front of another?

And who is in charge of the announcements and destination boards? I always assumed these were automated and not in control of the station staff - don't know why?

Signaler/Train company as the company could put a request through for train A to have priority over train B. It normally happens when the Plymouth is around 10 minuets late at Derby where the Cardiff will be held and the Crewe will follow after both have left.

The departure boards are automated and do come form some sort of feed but station staff can change platform numbers and other comments such as the location of first class if the train is the other way around. There is also the option to hide trains if they have left and not come off the screen or the service has been restarted along the route. Im sure theirs more functions but they are the ones that I know of.

 

[MichaelAMW]

One of the problems at Derby at present is that there are 8 XC trains an hour reversing in platforms 3 and 4, so platform changes with late running are a distinct possibility.

 

[LowLevel]

Having been at Derby station a lot have picked up a few things. When the old PSB was around the signaller had a radio in which short notice alterations could be told in which all the staff would know immediately. I am guessing the signaller now has to ring the station for all the platform changes in which there might be no staff in the supervisors office to answer the phone for the change of platform at that particular moment yesterday. As for announcements, I don't know as Digital Doris normally picks them up and announces the change.

Might not be in service yet but I'm sure the platform staff at Derby will get the same posh radios as their colleagues at Nottingham and Sheffield which allow them to directly radio the signallers at Derby EM ROC and York ROC respectively.

 

[Mugby]

The 1453 is a non-stop service from Derby to Birmingham whilst the 1510 stops at Willington, Burton and Tamworth so I would say it was a correct decision to regulate them in the way they did. I've seen this happen before at Derby.

I must say though, as a Derby resident, I have very little confidence in EMT's platform staff at the station. There seems to be quite a turnover in personnel and their grasp of what's actually happening often seems lacking to say the least. But, for anyone doing the job who is simply not railway minded, I suppose that will always be the case regardless of how much training they get.

 

[BanburyBlue]

The 1453 is a non-stop service from Derby to Birmingham whilst the 1510 stops at Willington, Burton and Tamworth so I would say it was a correct decision to regulate them in the way they did. I've seen this happen before at Derby.

I must say though, as a Derby resident, I have very little confidence in EMT's platform staff at the station. There seems to be quite a turnover in personnel and their grasp of what's actually happening often seems lacking to say the least. But, for anyone doing the job who is simply not railway minded, I suppose that will always be the case regardless of how much training they get.

Well, yes. I have no issue with the 14.53 being put ahead of the 15.10 - just wish they would have told people!