RATP Paris (Metro)

Discussion in 'Disputes & Prosecutions' started by ChiefPlanner, 10 Jun 2019.

  1. ChiefPlanner

    ChiefPlanner Established Member

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    Can I ask some advice ? - is it relevant or should it be Inernational.

    Daughters friend this pm in Paris on the Metro , encountered a block and showed the wrong (previous) single journey ticket - the proper one was in her bag , and got fined 40 Euros , on the spot despite showing the proper ticket. Obviously a very soft and easy fine , compared to the large numbers of blatent fare dodgers on the system.

    She paid in cash , has a receipt - does anyone here have an idea (I am sure I can dig it up) , for a back office on this system where a sensible conversation can be had. Thank you.
     
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  3. Peter Mugridge

    Peter Mugridge Established Member

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    Well, the RATP HQ is at 54 Quai de la Rapée, 75012 if you want to write in about it.

    If you're using Google translate to write the letter in French, I'd strongly suggest double checking by translating back into English as well before sending a letter, just to make sure that none of your meanings have been changed - and also include an apology if some parts of the letter are not clear, saying that you are using Google translate.
     
  4. ChiefPlanner

    ChiefPlanner Established Member

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    Thanks , when they are back and we have the neccesary information , will do so !
     
  5. island

    island Established Member

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    This is why I always throw away single RATP tickets immediately after use.
     
  6. Trackman

    Trackman Member

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    Do they not give you chance to produce the correct ticket?
     
  7. island

    island Established Member

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    It depends how good your French is.
     
  8. 33017

    33017 Member

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    RATP tickets can be a nightmare to use if you've bought a carnet as the barriers are frequently out of ink and it can be very easy to confuse used and 'clean' tickets. Always keep your current ticket separate from the unused (and used) ones.
     
  9. ChiefPlanner

    ChiefPlanner Established Member

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    Good advice - thank you.
     
  10. CC 72100

    CC 72100 Established Member

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    Unfortunately a very accurate analysis. And that's before you consider the lawless nature of some of the Transilien/RER lines!

    If you want me to proof read the French (Lived in France, degree in French and fluent speaker, albeit not infallible!) then happy to do so.
     
  11. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    You could also include both the French and English language version of the mail - there's a decent chance that it will land on the desk of someone with at least a passable standard of English.
     
  12. Peter Mugridge

    Peter Mugridge Established Member

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    Good thinking.
     
  13. SHD

    SHD Member

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    Has she kept the correct ticket?
    Frenchman here, so I can help with the correspondence.
     
  14. ChiefPlanner

    ChiefPlanner Established Member

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    Slow response - apologies . Have the RATP "fine" , but not the original tickets. They travelled Vauregad to Abessess , and on arrival , her friend showed 2 tickets on demand , alas one was a stale one , but then the proper ticket. As she had shown "an incorrect" ticket a penalty fare was deemed "neccesaire" - they then checked with the helpful ticket office staff who agreed the proper ticket was certainly valid.

    Seems an absolute con to me , in UK terms it is not an intention to defraud as she had , and showed a valid ticket.
     
  15. ChiefPlanner

    ChiefPlanner Established Member

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    RATP.jpg
     
  16. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Also putting it in UK tems, it was like a Byelaw 18 offence - in much the same way, there's no accusation of a deliberate intent to defraud just the fact that an invalid ticket was presented.
     
  17. some bloke

    some bloke Member

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    How does showing an incorrect ticket then the correct one mean she was "sans titre de transport", if that means no entitlement to travel?
     
  18. Llanigraham

    Llanigraham On Moderation

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    Because she showed the incorrect ticket first.

    And can we please remember that we are dealing with French laws, not British ones, and they are very different to ours. There is no comparison. We are "innocent until proven guilty" whereas they are "Guilty until proven innocent" .
     
  19. ChiefPlanner

    ChiefPlanner Established Member

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    Thanks - will not bother to follow through then ! , an expensive lesson.

    (makes mental note to continue not going to Paris !)
     
  20. Mag_seven

    Mag_seven Established Member

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    Oh of course we are leaving the EU because we can then make our own laws.....
     
  21. some bloke

    some bloke Member

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    I'm not clear how that shows liability, if the offence is travelling without being entitled to.

    A brief, polite email could simply ask whether that was the offence alleged, and if so whether the fine was correctly issued.

    That's not to say @ChiefPlanner would think it's worthwhile, but any explanation of why she is liable would perhaps need to include the specific offence.
     
  22. ChiefPlanner

    ChiefPlanner Established Member

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    Hmm - I know someone who (despite being form SW19 !) , is half French and lives / works in Paris. He is also a journalist , working quite near the RATP offices. Maybe he can make a gentle enquiry as to what the "offence" is all about.

    Thank you all again.
     
  23. Llanigraham

    Llanigraham On Moderation

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    But you are imposing British railway legislation, rules and practices on a FRENCH railway.
     
  24. SHD

    SHD Member

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    So, if I understand correctly, there was a party of two people (let's call them A and B) traveling from Vaugirard to Abbesses.
    They encountered a RPI ("contrôleurs") team at Abbesses.
    A showed a properly stamped ticket, and B a stale one (i.e. that had been stamped more than 2 hours ago, or that had been used on a bus/tram).
    When challenged by RPIs, B produced what you call a "proper ticket". But is B certain that this "proper ticket" had been properly stamped on entry at Vaugirard? Is she certain that it was not an unused ticket? Maybe B could dig out again her stuff to see whether she can find the "proper ticket", it would certainly help with the subsequent appeal process should she wish to proceed.


    This is not correct.
     
    Last edited: 17 Jun 2019
  25. ChiefPlanner

    ChiefPlanner Established Member

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    The second ticket that "B" showed was correct , and the station booking office staff confirmed that , after the issue of the "penalty fare" ....the "contolleurs" were probably not around. My daughter is presently enjoying her gap year time in Madrid as we speak. Tricky to talk to her - and it her friend who was "PF'd" ....

    In my time on the railway , checking tickets on trains and barriers (as management helping out on special occasions - and backing up the front line staff) , in cases like this where people often showed "wrong" tickets , but had proper "authority" (they might have had a wallet full of old tickets for expenses claiming etc) , we just laughed and carried on the job ,as long as they had a proper ticket.
     
  26. Llanigraham

    Llanigraham On Moderation

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    What isn't?
     
  27. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    The key question though is if the 'correct' ticket had been validated at the origin station or not? If it hasn't then the penalty fare was not only correctly issued but also fairly issued.
     
  28. ChiefPlanner

    ChiefPlanner Established Member

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    To my knowledge ,it had been
     
  29. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

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    I would say the key question is what the rules/laws say about the situation.
     
  30. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    When I've been to Paris the advice has always been that an unvalidated ticket is treated as no ticket if you are stopped by a revenue check. This is because the tickets are valid forever if not validated.
     
  31. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    That's true but not relevant to the situation. The ticket presented first had been validated but on a journey some time previously so was no longer valid. The correct ticket had also been validated but was still within the time limit.

    If only the station staff not the controlleurs saw the second, valid, ticket then there's probably not much of a case, as there would be no record of this happening. If RATP was in the habit of refunding penalties if the penaltee (if that's a word) sent in a valid ticket at a later date, then it would be easy enough for fraudsters to get a used one with appropriate timestamp from another passenger immediately afterwards.
     

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