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RDG trial/Budget announcement: 26-30 Railcard from Spring 2018

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Bletchleyite

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How so?

That suggests that a paper card that could get ruined by leaving it in your pocket when you wash your jeans is a better option than having the card on your phone.

To me the very best option is the plastic version[1] in my wallet (as all the online purchased "paper" ones are).

[1] NSE, though I would seriously consider a National Railcard at the right price.
 
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ainsworth74

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We have a thread for discussing the pros and cons of digital railcards so might I ask that we don't rehash it here?

Many thanks!
 

Starmill

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I'm not 100% clear on this but do they mean that there will be no additional restrictions over the 16-25 ones apart from the removal of the July & August easement?

If this means that there will be no restrictions as per the Senior Railcard or Family & Friends railcard (discounts not valid until the time a CDR is), and no minimum fare above £12, it will be cheaper than season tickets for some routes. Taking the example of Ingatestone, whose residents will presumably be eligible for the trial:

7 Day Travelcard Season £110.60
Anytime Day Travelcard £31.60

Or with 26-30 railcard discount: £20.85

5*£20.85 =£104.25

This doesn't actually mean people will switch en masse because it's a lot of extra hassle, it's only a small saving and also it only takes one weekend trip and the season ticket is cheaper again. It doesn't appear to be cheaper over more than a week. Nonetheless the fact that it is cheaper at all is still something. There may be current Ingatestone commuters who have 16-25 railcards doing just that.

Anyone wanting a 2-Together Railcard discount from Ingatestone can't arrive at London Liverpool Street until 1001, and in this instance the same goes for Off-Peak Day tickets and Senior / F&F railcards.

Of course, the real cause of that is vastly overpriced short and medium distance season tickets, but that is a debate for another thread!
 
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Bletchleyite

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There are plenty of Anytime journeys where a single in and a single back with NSE is cheaper than an Anytime Return. I won't identify any particular ones to avoid them being plugged, but this is not really a big thing, as most people just won't think to do it.
 

Class442Fan

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Taking the example of Ingatestone, whose residents will presumably be eligible for the trial:

7 Day Travelcard Season £110.60
Anytime Day Travelcard £31.60

Or with 26-30 railcard discount: £20.85

5*£20.85 =£104.25

I guess this is only for now, seeing as a fare hike is looming... :(
 

Joe Paxton

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For the Network Railcard, why is there a £13 minimum fare on weekdays but not weekends?

Because otherwise a few TOCs threatened to pull out (it's not a mandatory product) which would have killed it had it not been so.

One such TOC was I believe Chiltern (I think a name and shame is justified). I don't know which the others were.

I think you'll find the main "culprit" behind the introduction of the minimum fare was, in fact, South West Trains...


That's also my understanding - in fact my recollection is that SWT had threatened to pull out of the Network Railcard scheme altogether. This is in the early noughties - there was a bit of a rumpus with a few MPs raising objections. The result was the revised Network Railcard with minimum fare, introduced in (IIRC) 2002. The minimum fare when first introduced was £10.

Thankfully the Network Railcard seems safe now, though best not take anything for granted.
 

bnm

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I'm hearing from a reliable staff source that the minimum fare on the 16-25 is due to rise to £15 next year. Presumably the 26-30 will be the same.
 

bussnapperwm

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I'm hearing from a reliable staff source that the minimum fare on the 16-25 is due to rise to £15 next year. Presumably the 26-30 will be the same.

Surely though as the current cardholders are enjoying a £12 minimum fare, then the contract between the user and the seller of the rail cards when accepting terms and conditions are superior to any additional changes unless agreed by both parties
 

Bletchleyite

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Surely though as the current cardholders are enjoying a £12 minimum fare, then the contract between the user and the seller of the rail cards when accepting terms and conditions are superior to any additional changes unless agreed by both parties

Depends if the contract allows for an increase, which it probably does.

The old Network Railcard contract did not allow for the imposition of a minimum fare, so this applied only to new issues.
 

222001

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Depends if the contract allows for an increase, which it probably does.

The old Network Railcard contract did not allow for the imposition of a minimum fare, so this applied only to new issues.

The 16-25 minimum fare has changed before too. If I remember correctly it used to be £8 for a single ticket and £16 for a return, but it was then just changed to £12 for all?
 

Starmill

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There are plenty of Anytime journeys where a single in and a single back with NSE is cheaper than an Anytime Return. I won't identify any particular ones to avoid them being plugged, but this is not really a big thing, as most people just won't think to do it.

Well that isn't really surprising is it given that traditionally there were no Anytime Returns in the NSE area.
 

island

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If it's a digital only railacard (ie. not available from stations) then it'll need to be purchased on-line. The address you enter will need to be your card billing address otherwise the payment doesn't authorise. I'm sure someone will come up with a workaround to purchase one 'out of area'.

It’s trivially easy if you know how the billing address verification system works.
 

Mojo

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The 16-25 minimum fare has changed before too. If I remember correctly it used to be £8 for a single ticket and £16 for a return, but it was then just changed to £12 for all?
Before fare "simplification" the minimum fare before 10am was £16 for Standard Day Return or Standard Open Return (including European variants), and £8 for all other tickets such as Standard Open Single or Saver Return. After "simplification" you are right in that it was £8 for singles and £16 for returns.
 

WelshBluebird

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It’s trivially easy if you know how the billing address verification system works.

Indeed. I don't claim to know how it works, but I do know that some payments I have made online certainly didn't check the billing address at all (as I had entered my parents home as the billing address having forgotten I was using a different card that was registered to my current address).
 

Mojo

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Interesting that the media seems only to have picked up on this today, over one month after it was posted here. Wonder if that's because MoneysavingExpert posted a news article today referring to "a rail forum" but didn't actually link to us here.
 

Joe Paxton

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Interesting that the media seems only to have picked up on this today, over one month after it was posted here. Wonder if that's because MoneysavingExpert posted a news article today referring to "a rail forum" but didn't actually link to us here.

Looks likely that the original source was indeed this thread (and particularly post #43, and also post #27), but whilst the RDG refused to comment, MSE did get a quote from a Greater Anglia spokesperson confirming the trial of the 26-30 Railcard.
 

Kite159

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Typical, just as I turn 31 the new 26-30 railcard comes in...

Makes sense in a way as it could boost rail travel for those youngsters which covers the 'lost' revenue by selling at a discount
 

ainsworth74

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Are there any dates for this trial yet? Is it still starting with GA and looking at a limited national trial at some point in early 2018?
 

tspaul26

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Depends if the contract allows for an increase, which it probably does.

The old Network Railcard contract did not allow for the imposition of a minimum fare, so this applied only to new issues.

Indeed, clause 12. I would need to confirm, but I believe the holder would be entitled in principle to a pro rata refund if the minimum fare was increased.

I would like to predict that the minimum fare will be increased on 20 May 2018.
 
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This was announced to retail staff a month ago yet RDG are 'refusing to comment'?!! Since no trial has yet happened, there won't be much time to evaluate it if national roll out is 'early 2018'....so this feels like it will 'make haste slowly'. There's apparently a bit of a row rumbling about how much this might cost and who pays, TOCs or DfT...(when was the last time Government underwrote the bill for anything like this??!!). Also about whether RDG jumped the gun here ahead of getting all TOCs fully onboard. The talk about the £15 minimum fare for the YPR has to be set against the absence of min spend in the pm peak or in the summer (something that hasn't changed since the 70s, apparently). You can do the maths and quickly see what a great deal this currently is for regular commuters: my flatmate has a great job with Goldman Sachs on £50k and can still get cheap fares even if I'm barely on half that?? A better reform might be to look at an income criteria instead -- as for repayment of student loans... OK, not very practical, though...
 

ocelocelot

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Is it conceivable that the loss of revenue from the card being used could be offset by an increase in patronage by 26-30-year-olds? I'd like to believe it, but does that sort of thing happen? I'd be uncomfortable about this being funded from taxation.

Edit: I ask because I thought I remembered when this came up originally someone suggesting the possibility of the TOC being reimbursed by the DfT for any lost revenue. But now I can't find where someone suggested that. Perhaps they only meant in the context of the trial, to encourage a TOC to give it a go without risk of revenue loss. On an ongoing basis seems unlikely to fund this from taxation.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I assume so. I also wonder if it’s a small scale trial to see what impact a National Railcard might have, rather than being aimed at placating Millennials.
 

Joe Paxton

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Guardian article from last Friday - Millennial railcard to launch next year offering a third off fares

A new railcard for people aged 26-30 is to be launched early next year offering a third off most train fares as part of a wider government initiative to offer better deals for hard-pressed millennials.

It is understood that the chancellor, Phillip Hammond, is preparing to unveil a package of giveaways in his November budget aimed at shoring up support among younger voters, who have been among the hardest hit groups since the 2007-08 financial crisis.

The rail industry is also understood to be launching a major new initiative, under the working title “One plan for the railways” on 6 November, which the new railcard is believed to play a part in.
[...]
The initial cost to the train operator is understood to be about £20m a year in reduced revenue, a shortfall expected to be made up by the Treasury.
[...]

If the new railcard is being at least part funded (or subsidised) by the government, as part of a package of benefits for 'Millennials' to be announced in the November budget, then that would explain the RDG's unwillingness to comment.
 

gsnedders

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If the new railcard is being at least part funded (or subsidised) by the government, as part of a package of benefits for 'Millennials' to be announced in the November budget, then that would explain the RDG's unwillingness to comment.
Or even simply being guaranteed by the government (i.e., if it results in a reduction in revenue, the government will make up the shortfall)? No risk introduction for the RDG.
 

ainsworth74

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Is it conceivable that the loss of revenue from the card being used could be offset by an increase in patronage by 26-30-year-olds? I'd like to believe it, but does that sort of thing happen? I'd be uncomfortable about this being funded from taxation.
I would expect that that is the idea. Extra usage from the target age group will bring in more revenue than is 'lost' by the discount. Which is presumably why they're offering it as a specific product rather than an extension to the 16-25 Railcard. Much easier to track the usage and revenue impacts that way rather than having the data swamped in the existing users of the 16-25.

Any Government funding would be for the trial period only I'd imagine to incentivise the TOCs to do it and, therefore, I would assume that it would only be rolled out further if it was shown to have a beneficial impact on revenue. It seems doubtful that the Government would sign up to prop up a Railcard with extra subsidy when they're trying to reduce it!
 

whhistle

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*Sigh* - yet another layer to the already complex ticketing system.
It'd be easy to sort out, but just needs someone with some large ones to do so.

It's like buying things from The Body Shop, or Alton Towers Tickets. If you're not using a voucher or discount code, you're being had.

We're becoming more and more Americanised as each day passes.
 

yorksrob

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Well, it seems a justifiable reason to have such a card. Alas, the idea that this might be some sort of a sounding board for a truly National railcard available to anyone, of the sort our Continental neighbours have had for years, seems unfounded.
 

Joe Paxton

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Well, it seems a justifiable reason to have such a card. Alas, the idea that this might be some sort of a sounding board for a truly National railcard available to anyone, of the sort our Continental neighbours have had for years, seems unfounded.

Agreed.
 
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