Reasons for paper tickets being the only option, rather than e-tickets?

[MrJeeves]

I don't know the details, but don't retailers incur a fee for generating a barcode? There may also be a fee for writing a ToD to LSM, but in terms of cost the key question would be whether they are comparable.

The fees table is publicly available on the ATOC Travel Agents website: https://www.atoctravelagents.org/third-party-retailing/retailing-costs

I'd assume these would be the same for TOC retailers too.

For ToD:

Flat 5p per CTR record inserted.

Ticket machine collections
Per CTR: 0.5% of ticket cost, with a minimum of 7.5p and maximum of 50p.

Ticket office collections
Per CTR: 3.66% of ticket cost, with no minimum or maximum

For barcodes:

The choice of...
(a) 0.35% per CTR for fares over £10, capped at 30p
(b) 0.41% per CTR for fares over £15, capped at 30p

There are also fees for eTVD (you'd need to write that the ticket has been cancelled), but I assume these are negotiated directly with one of the few RDG eTVD suppliers.

I can now somewhat understand why it'd be ToD only with this, as then you only eat the 5p CTR insertion fee as the rainy day guarantee only permits refunds/changes when the tickets have not been collected. On the other hand, £15 E-Ticket would be 5.25p at least, plus the eTVD costs to cancel the barcode.

So, I suppose, uncollected ToD is cheapest to cancel, the E-Tickets, then collected ToDs.

 

[Haywain]

I'd assume these would be the same for TOC retailers too.

I can't be certain but I believe they are.

So, I suppose, uncollected ToD is cheapest to cancel, the E-Tickets, then collected ToDs.

Agreed. Uncollected ToD has the bonus that settlement hasn't been made either,

 

[Mainline421]

The current approach does not work.

You can criticize it, but it certainly does work. Much better than to start issuing tickets that can't be checked and/or get rejected by the many different companies that accept rail tickets.

 

[Adam Williams]

You can criticize it, but it certainly does work. Much better than to start issuing tickets that can't be checked and/or get rejected by the many different companies that accept rail tickets.

As someone who's pointed out more instances of RCS discrepancies to TOC pricing managers than I think most members here, I stand by my characterisation that it doesn't work. The quality of the data within it is junk. And it's still entirely possible to issue customers with tickets that won't be accepted on the ground - retailers have to put their own rules in on top to prevent this!

I think it's rather telling that the largest-retailer-by-sales-volumes entirely ignores its existence too.

 

[317 forever]

I have tried booking a super off-peak day return, or even an off-peak return, on the East Midlands Railway website, it does allow e-tickets.


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• Recommended
  
  
  eticket
  The alternative to a paper ticket that can be emailed directly to you.
  Open and use the PDF ticket on your smartphone
  Print the PDF as a back up if you want
  Add your tickets to Apple Wallet or Google Wallet
  Register/sign in and download your tickets to the East Midlands Railway app
• 
  
  Collect your ticket at a station
  You just need your collection reference and any debit/credit card to collect from a station window or self-serve ticket machine.
  
  
• 
  
  Royal Mail Special Delivery Next Working Day (£6.00)
  Guaranteed ticket delivery by 1pm the next working day for bookings made before 3pm. Check Expected Delivery Times for bookings made after 3pm, at weekends and to remote locations. All tickets insured for up to £750.00. You will need to sign for your tickets on delivery.
  

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[philthetube]

TBF it's just time for LU and Merseyrail to get their house sorted out and for all routes to be e-ticketable. The financial savings to the railway of being able to decommission ToD and just have TVMs print barcodes on till roll (as some trial ones do) would be immense.

There lies the problem, the railway saves money and LUL spend it, this needs resolving from on high, not London ratepayers budget.

 

[Mainline421]

TBF it's just time for LU and Merseyrail to get their house sorted out and for all routes to be e-ticketable. The financial savings to the railway of being able to decommission ToD and just have TVMs print barcodes on till roll (as some trial ones do) would be immense.

You'd need to add TrawsCymru, Stena, Irish Ferries, Wightlink/Hovertravel... and that's just the popular ones, there's many, many more

 

[Bletchleyite]

You'd need to add TrawsCymru, Stena, Irish Ferries, Wightlink/Hovertravel... and that's just the popular ones, there's many, many more

How hard is it to install an app on a mobile phone that the member of staff probably already has? None of those deal with the sort of volumes and rush that a LU gateline does.

I suspect if Ticketer (as used by almost every bus company) can't already read railway AZTEC codes then given a suitable bung and the keys they would do it. Though with the £2 fare does anyone use PlusBus at the moment? It's rarely better value.

 

[cool110]

Though with the £2 fare does anyone use PlusBus at the moment? It's rarely better value.

At public rates sure, but Railcards often tip the balance the other way

 

[Haywain]

Though with the £2 fare does anyone use PlusBus at the moment? It's rarely better value.

PlusBus will be better value, in many cases, for anyone using more than one bus. I suspect in all cases it would be better value when using 3 buses or more.

 

[kkong]

Though with the £2 fare does anyone use PlusBus at the moment? It's rarely better value.

Not all of us live in a part of the UK where there is a £2 fare cap.

 

[Adam Williams]

I suspect if Ticketer (as used by almost every bus company) can't already read railway AZTEC codes

They're supposed to be working on it...

 

[creosote]

I have tried booking a super off-peak day return, or even an off-peak return, on the East Midlands Railway website, it does allow e-tickets.


Basket


My Bookings

• Search
• Options
• Payment
• Confirmation

Delivery options​

• Recommended
  
  
  eticket
  The alternative to a paper ticket that can be emailed directly to you.
  Open and use the PDF ticket on your smartphone
  Print the PDF as a back up if you want
  Add your tickets to Apple Wallet or Google Wallet
  Register/sign in and download your tickets to the East Midlands Railway app
• 
  
  Collect your ticket at a station
  You just need your collection reference and any debit/credit card to collect from a station window or self-serve ticket machine.
  
  
• 
  
  Royal Mail Special Delivery Next Working Day (£6.00)
  Guaranteed ticket delivery by 1pm the next working day for bookings made before 3pm. Check Expected Delivery Times for bookings made after 3pm, at weekends and to remote locations. All tickets insured for up to £750.00. You will need to sign for your tickets on delivery.

Total£43.80​

Continue

to check-out​

• 1 Adult
  Out
  10:16 (Mon 14 Oct)10:16 am (Mon 14 Oct)
  

  ---

  Portslade to Clapham Junction
  1h 5m1 hour 5 minutes, 0 changes
  Return

Very interesting 317! (interesting debate on this thread anyway) I just tried this this morning to book a return in a days time, tried it with the southern app and the usual collect from station, tried it with EMR (same time trains) and I get the e-ticket option..........how is that possible?? As this was theoretical, I didnt confirm my purchase to check thats what I would end up with and they wouldnt just bait n switch me, but still this confuses me no end. So I guess ill be using EMR to book my southern rail journeys in future
With regard to the debate on the paper vs e-tickets, I agree paper tickets are still useful due to their acceptance across the networks. For me its more about convenience since my travelling is random enough not to warrant a season ticket or some kind of perma-solution. Therefore I just want to be able to book a journey fairly last minute and not have the anxiety and faff of picking them up from a station (queues, remembering to bring the payment card you booked with, faulty machines eg the other day I couldnt collect because the touch screen wouldnt work regardless of pressure...). E-tickets are not perfect, but they suit me for now.
EDIT: just to add that the tickets i pick up generally dont work in the barriers at either end, Im just showing them to staff most of the time, thus removing the speed benefit of paper

 

[redreni]

I got offered an e-ticket to Boundary Zone 6 yesterday. Have they been enabled recently? I don't recall that happening before with boundary fares (but then, it's not a route I travel regularly).

Retailer was the forum's site, ticket was St Neots to Boundary Zone 6.

 

[Adam Williams]

Have they been enabled recently?

I asked RDG to give the boundary zone fares unique fake CRS code, to allow for this, which they did.

It's now up to pricing managers to actually do the enabling

 

[cool110]

I just tried this this morning to book a return in a days time, tried it with the southern app and the usual collect from station, tried it with EMR (same time trains) and I get the e-ticket option..........how is that possible??

EMR uses Trainline who as mentioned before have their own rules, while Southern follow RCS.

 

[creosote]

EMR uses Trainline who as mentioned before have their own rules, while Southern follow RCS.

Thanks. I used to use trainline whilst southern didnt have an app and normally they also would not offer e-tickets for this route, I stopped using them in the end due to the fees they charge. I just tried them again this morning and yes, now it appears theyre offering e-tickets....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks. I used to use trainline whilst southern didnt have an app and normally they also would not offer e-tickets for this route, I stopped using them in the end due to the fees they charge. I just tried them again this morning and yes, now it appears theyre offering e-tickets....

Note that Trainline doesn't charge fees for purchase of tickets (possibly only walk ups, I can't remember) on the day of travel on the app. It's quite a good app so this is quite useful to me.

 

[creosote]

Note that Trainline doesn't charge fees for purchase of tickets (possibly only walk ups, I can't remember) on the day of travel on the app. It's quite a good app so this is quite useful to me.

Cheers, no booking fee but still a card fee apparently (which is usually much less)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cheers, no booking fee but still a card fee apparently (which is usually much less)

Doesn't charge me one if I use Apple Pay, I don't know if Android is different.

 

[125Spotter]

The fees table is publicly available on the ATOC Travel Agents website: https://www.atoctravelagents.org/third-party-retailing/retailing-costs

I'd assume these would be the same for TOC retailers too.

For ToD:

Flat 5p per CTR record inserted.

Ticket machine collections
Per CTR: 0.5% of ticket cost, with a minimum of 7.5p and maximum of 50p.

Ticket office collections
Per CTR: 3.66% of ticket cost, with no minimum or maximum

This is very interesting. Who actually funds the physical inventory and servicing charges of the TVMs at stations, then? Do the RDG fees include the costs of CCST/till roll stock or is that down to the station operator? I presume it is the station operator’s own staff who are responsible for physically attending to the machines on the ground?

 

[MrJeeves]

This is very interesting. Who actually funds the physical inventory and servicing charges of the TVMs at stations, then? Do the RDG fees include the costs of CCST/till roll stock or is that down to the station operator? I presume it is the station operator’s own staff who are responsible for physically attending to the machines on the ground?

TOCs will fund the stocking of TVMs and ticket offices themselves, which is part of the reason why these fees exist in the first place. I assume they get reimbursed(?) to some extent by RDG?

 

[Haywain]

I assume they get reimbursed(?) to some extent by RDG?

I don't believe that's the case. TVMs are provided as part of the overall package of being the station operator or lead operator, in the same way as a ticket office. There was a significant increase in the numbers of machines during the later 2000s and early 2010s as usage grew, particularly with ToD, much of which was driven by commitments and requirements in franchise agreements. With eTickets now dominant there is a gradual reversal under way.

 

[island]

Cheers, no booking fee but still a card fee apparently (which is usually much less)

Card fees are illegal (except for corporate cards).

 

[trek]

Thanks. I used to use trainline whilst southern didnt have an app and normally they also would not offer e-tickets for this route, I stopped using them in the end due to the fees they charge. I just tried them again this morning and yes, now it appears theyre offering e-tickets....

You should be able to use any one of the Trainline-white label apps/websites eg Northern, Crosscountry, EMR, Scotrail and won't be charged any fees.

Northern offers up to 2% cashback via Topcashback as well if interested.

 

[creosote]

You should be able to use any one of the Trainline-white label apps/websites eg Northern, Crosscountry, EMR, Scotrail and won't be charged any fees.

Northern offers up to 2% cashback via Topcashback as well if interested.

Thanks really useful info. Interesting thread all round, who'd have thought buying a train ticket is still such a minefield

 

[creosote]

Update. I got in touch with Southern rail as advised and they now appear to provide e-tickets for this journey. Thanks for the help.

 

[AlbertBeale]

PlusBus will be better value, in many cases, for anyone using more than one bus. I suspect in all cases it would be better value when using 3 buses or more.

I always include a PlusBus when getting a train from the London area to the Brighton area - it almost always saves me money down there (despite the £2 cap currently), and always saves me hassle. (A Plusbus ticket on regular railway ticket card stock that is, like my rail tickets always are.)

 

[infobleep]

GTR have always been lukewarm to e-tickets. They haven't refused like TfL, but have never been that interested. It's the popularity of the format that has pushed them into making more provision for them, for a long time only the wide gate at their larger stations had a scanner. There's lots of anomalies on Southern, like a return being available as an e-ticket but a single only as paper.

Are these Advance tickets? I've found Southern advances are paper only if they involve either a) an ungated station or b) a station not managed by Southern. No idea why.

Last time i checked, Guildford to Sutton wasn't available as an eTicket but Guildford to West Sutton was.

They have adverts at some stations promoting why you should use use eTickets.

 

[Sonic1234]

Last time i checked, Guildford to Sutton wasn't available as an eTicket but Guildford to West Sutton was.

They have adverts at some stations promoting why you should use use eTickets.

That comes from the early days of e-ticketing on GTR, where only large stations had a single scanner on the wide gate and smaller and suburban stations did not. Ungated stations were enabled for walk up tickets as there's no need to scan on entry/exit. For Advances, ungated stations are paper only for some reason.

Always question if those adverts are good for GTR, yes they promote their website/app but it's basically saying "please give 5% to Trainline". At suburban stations, they should do adverts saying "One of the few not using Oyster? Try the ticket office" if only to relieve the boredom of the staff.