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Reasons for paper tickets being the only option, rather than e-tickets?

trainophile

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How do e-tickets work when a train manager wants to endorse it for other services due to disruption or something?

Doesn’t printing off e-tickets defeat what I thought was the main point of them, ie reducing the use of consumables?

If your split ticket journey involves half a dozen tickets without changing trains couldn’t a ticket check get a bit messy?

If they gave a £1 discount for selecting e instead of paper there might be a bigger take-up!
 
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MrJeeves

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How do e-tickets work when a train manager wants to endorse it for other services due to disruption or something?
They can leave a note against the ticket after scanning it.

Doesn’t printing off e-tickets defeat what I thought was the main point of them, ie reducing the use of consumables?
There are many reasons behind a push for E-Tickets. Being environmentally friendly is one of the ones to appeal more to the public, at least compared to "it helps to reduce fraud".

If your split ticket journey involves half a dozen tickets without changing trains couldn’t a ticket check get a bit messy?
How come? They just scan each barcode for the journey and that's that. No different to inspecting/"gripping" a wad of paper tickets, really.

If they gave a £1 discount for selecting e instead of paper there might be a bigger take-up!
Or just charge an extra £1 for paper, like CrossCountry... ;)
 

redreni

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They can leave a note against the ticket after scanning it.


There are many reasons behind a push for E-Tickets. Being environmentally friendly is one of the ones to appeal more to the public, at least compared to "it helps to reduce fraud".

This is where the interests of the rail industry may well be perfectly legitimate, but my preference as a consumer (for as long as choice is available) may not always necessarily align with that objective.

None of the tickets I buy are used fraudulently, so me choosing e-tickets rather than CCSTs would not contribute to reducing fraud.

On the other hand - and this sort of thing is replicated in our dealings with large organisations generally - where we have a choice in how we transact with large organisations, businesses etc, other things being equal I will tend to choose ways of transacting that naturally produces less rather than more data that will be retained by the large organisation. This is partly because the purposes for which it is used may not be in my interests (either as an individual or as part of a group), particularly when the organisation is trying to maximise its revenue and I am trying to get the goods or services I need or want while minimising my spend.

It's also partly because I strongly suspect that in most cases the additional data collected isn't needed and much of it won't be used at all, but it is being collected because the organisation is desperate not to look as if it is being left behind in the headlong rush to collect and process more and more and more data. And then they repeatedly lose control of personal data they hold (e.g. Lyca Mobile, BA, TfL). While it would certainly be wrong to worry unduly about a TOC knowing what time I travelled on a flexible ticket, whether and where I broke my journey etc, what is legitimate and reasonable is to prefer to keep to a minimum is the totality of the digital footprints we leave behind as we go about our business.
 

ArranArchie

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Nothing. You download the ticket to your phone when you purchase it, and it's still there to use whether the phone has Internet access at that moment or not.

That's the reason, by the way, that apps are the best way to do this for use on a phone - they are set up to make this a natural part of the purchase. If you use a website, you need to actively do this from the email otherwise you are relying on being online.
I've found that the GWR app likes to log me out at random, taking all the tickets with it until you've logged back in again. Logging in requires internet access. At least with paper tickets, I can be assured they won't suddenly disappear before my eyes.

The other reason I prefer physical tickets is so that I can't be accused of buying a short fare on board. The receipt says which station you were at when you got the ticket, whereas with digital tickets they might argue that I boarded at an earlier stop and bought the ticket on the train. Physical=proof. Digital=no proof.
 

Bletchleyite

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The other reason I prefer physical tickets is so that I can't be accused of buying a short fare on board. The receipt says which station you were at when you got the ticket, whereas with digital tickets they might argue that I boarded at an earlier stop and bought the ticket on the train. Physical=proof. Digital=no proof.

I don't recall ever seeing a thread in Disputes where someone was accused of short-faring when they actually had not done so*. RPIs know about what questions to ask when someone has bought what *might* be a short fare, e.g. "how did you get through the gateline? There's no entry scan and I've phoned up and checked it's in use." Or "why have you turned up at this gateline now when the last train from X was half an hour ago?"

* There have been cases where someone has been caught for short-faring who have then claimed a load of other purchases of the same trip on Trainline were not in fact short fares. I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine whether they were in fact lying or the TOC was wrong, and I know which I suspect is the case. But if you don't *actually* short fare this sort of thing just isn't going to come up.
 

Haywain

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I've found that the GWR app likes to log me out at random, taking all the tickets with it until you've logged back in again. Logging in requires internet access.
Don’t keep the tickets in the GWR app then.
 

Lewisham2221

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How do e-tickets work when a train manager wants to endorse it for other services due to disruption or something?
They can just print off a new itinerary or even feed some blank ticket roll off and write whatever endorsement on that and hand it to the passenger.

Doesn’t printing off e-tickets defeat what I thought was the main point of them, ie reducing the use of consumables?
I always thought it was the convenience of doing all your travel planning etc at home or wherever and not having to queue at the station to buy or collect tickets. Both apply I suppose.

If your split ticket journey involves half a dozen tickets without changing trains couldn’t a ticket check get a bit messy?
No more messy than somebody doing the same with CCST

If they gave a £1 discount for selecting e instead of paper there might be a bigger take-up!
There's already a big take-up of e-tickets. I'd imagine the biggest factors limiting further take-up are unavailability of e-tickets for the journey, people preferring to use the booking office, people paranoid about "tracking" and the like; in that order.

I've found that the GWR app likes to log me out at random, taking all the tickets with it until you've logged back in again. Logging in requires internet access. At least with paper tickets, I can be assured they won't suddenly disappear before my eyes.

The other reason I prefer physical tickets is so that I can't be accused of buying a short fare on board. The receipt says which station you were at when you got the ticket, whereas with digital tickets they might argue that I boarded at an earlier stop and bought the ticket on the train. Physical=proof. Digital=no proof.
When a digital ticket is scanned, it shows what time it was purchased. That aside, nobody is trying to force you to use e-tickets. If you want to continue buying paper tickets, you are more than welcome to do so.

In response to the thread title:
Reasons for paper tickets being the only option, rather than e-tickets?
I'm aware of certain flows (which I'm not going to name) where e-tickets have been disabled to combat short faring where people were waiting to see if the guard got to them (pay when challenged) and if not, just buying the cheapest possible to ticket to get through the barriers.
 
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infobleep

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What train operating company will print e-tickets for you?
I was thinking about going to a ticket vending machine and purchasing and printing it there. Not an eTicket but a paper ticket.

It was the comment you can print an eTicket that made me think of buying a ticket at a TMV.

In response to the thread title:

I'm aware of certain flows (which I'm not going to name) where e-tickets have been disabled to combat short faring where people were waiting to see if the guard got to them (pay when challenged) and if not, just buying the cheapest possible to ticket to get through the barriers.
If that is an issue, how will they increase the roll out of e-tickets?
 
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setdown

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I’ve found since e-tickets have been more adopted, I get far less hassle using CCST. Guards and barrier staff see the orange card and don’t even bother reading it 90% of the time.

Saves questions about unusual splits, (validly) using off-peak tickets at traditional peak times, it’s great! Will happily enjoy using them until they’re discontinued.
 

crablab

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They can leave a note against the ticket after scanning it.
How does this square with
There is no central database of e-tickets.

If there is no central database of e-tickets, how can a note be left against it when scanning? ie. endorsement

AIUI, suppliers (like TTK) maintain their own backend which records scans and things like endorsements against the UTN. Presumably also populating their database with the data encoded in the Aztec, if it's not centrally retrievable. Is that correct?

If so, presumably for both to be true there's some level of interoperability between the various suppliers to enable data recorded by one to be accessible via another?
 

Wallsendmag

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How does this square with


If there is no central database of e-tickets, how can a note be left against it when scanning? ie. endorsement

AIUI, suppliers (like TTK) maintain their own backend which records scans and things like endorsements against the UTN. Presumably also populating their database with the data encoded in the Aztec, if it's not centrally retrievable. Is that correct?

If so, presumably for both to be true there's some level of interoperability between the various suppliers to enable data recorded by one to be accessible via another?
There is a list of tickets that have been scanned, once scanned a note can be left against it. The databases are connected.
 

Haywain

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To clarify, once an eTicket is scanned details of it are recorded on an eTicket Validation Database (eTVD), and all eTVDs can be accessed by each other. An eTicket will also be added to the eTVD if it has been cancelled or refunded. Until the eTicket has either been scanned or otherwise added to a database its existence is only known to the customer who holds it and to the retailer, although the train company will know about sales and reservations.
 

Adam Williams

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If so, presumably for both to be true there's some level of interoperability between the various suppliers to enable data recorded by one to be accessible via another?
It's a decentralised, but connected system.

My belief is that it's actually very well designed, because there's no reliance on e.g. RDG running a central service and therefore there isn't the single point of failure you might otherwise have. Tickets can be fulfilled entirely offline.
 

crablab

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Thanks all :)
My belief is that it's actually very well designed, because there's no reliance on e.g. RDG running a central service and therefore there isn't the single point of failure you might otherwise have. Tickets can be fulfilled entirely offline.
Agreed :) It sounds quite robust, assuming that it's clear which eTVDs responded when querying for the scan history of a UTN. It would be unfortunate if an eTVD that had scan history for a UTN but failed to respond resulted in an invisible failure to the user. But I'm sure that's been thought of :)

And if there's no reservations required, presumably issuing an eTicket has no dependency on RARS either? Or does it require checking with RARS to know whether or not reservations or counted place are required, irrespective of the timetable data?
 

Adam Williams

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Thanks all :)

Agreed :) It sounds quite robust, assuming that it's clear which eTVDs responded when querying for the scan history of a UTN. It would be unfortunate if an eTVD that had scan history for a UTN but failed to respond resulted in an invisible failure to the user. But I'm sure that's been thought of :)

And if there's no reservations required, presumably issuing an eTicket has no dependency on RARS either? Or does it require checking with RARS to know whether or not reservations or counted place are required, irrespective of the timetable data?
If none of the train services are mandatory reservations (and the customer doesn't ask for one) you can just sell a walk-up without having to touch RARS, yes. Sadly the number of routes where this is possible is dwindling.
 

Wallsendmag

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Thanks all :)

Agreed :) It sounds quite robust, assuming that it's clear which eTVDs responded when querying for the scan history of a UTN. It would be unfortunate if an eTVD that had scan history for a UTN but failed to respond resulted in an invisible failure to the user. But I'm sure that's been thought of :)

And if there's no reservations required, presumably issuing an eTicket has no dependency on RARS either? Or does it require checking with RARS to know whether or not reservations or counted place are required, irrespective of the timetable data?
Any device or portal will only check a specific eTVD it won't check all to see which it gets a response from.
 

crablab

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Any device or portal will only check a specific eTVD it won't check all to see which it gets a response from.
I imagine there's some rigorous process to make sure that all eTVDs are being interrogated when producing data to support enforcement action :)
Especially when the absence of scan data is used to suggest a particular offence has occurred (eg. refund fraud)

On a separate note, it might be interesting to FoI some of this scan data in bulk. If I remember correctly, one ToC (Northern?) asserted their belief that the data did not fall in the scope of a dSAR as it did not contain PII related to the individual making the request.
It doesn't necessarily follow that the data would be suitable for release, and it would need staff PII redacted, but it would be interesting to see what the basis for rejection was.
 

crablab

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Is the note visible for the passenger to see and know what has been stated?
No. The eTVDs are not generally accessible to passengers.
Some forum members have made dSARs to see associated data like this.
 

TUC

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No. The eTVDs are not generally accessible to passengers.
Some forum members have made dSARs to see associated data like this.
That is distinctly less passenger-friendly as it makes it impossible for the passenger to know whether the note accurately reflects what they think has been agreed with the staff member issuing it.
 

The exile

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No. The eTVDs are not generally accessible to passengers.
Some forum members have made dSARs to see associated data like this.
Which is not much good if you want to check what the promised endorsement actually says before boarding a train in 10 minutes’ time.
 

renegademaster

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If I'm going somewhere that doesn't have advances or split tickets I will just buy a ticket at the TVM. That way if something last minute pops up and I have to abandon my journey before it starts, I don't have to spend £5 getting a refund. Theirs no penalty for not doing e-tickets, other than a queue, which is rare most days at East Croydon, the Trainline website being more a faff than the unresponsive TVMs
 

Sonic1234

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Theirs no penalty for not doing e-tickets, other than a queue, which is rare most days at East Croydon
I always find it ironic how there will be posters at suburban stations about "skipping the queue" - there isn't one! If anything the posters should say "help with our staff boredom problem, try the ticket office"

East Croydon has more ticket office/TVM sales being a gateway to the world beyond Oyster.
 

Haywain

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posters at suburban stations about "skipping the queue" - there isn't one!
The trouble is that there not being a queue isn't something you can rely on - it only needs one person with a complicated request and 'limited understanding' and you'll be missing your train.
 

alistairlees

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I always find it ironic how there will be posters at suburban stations about "skipping the queue" - there isn't one! If anything the posters should say "help with our staff boredom problem, try the ticket office"
There’s almost never a queue at the ticket office at my local station. This is because it’s almost always closed, even when it should be open.
 

infobleep

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Nothing. You download the ticket to your phone when you purchase it, and it's still there to use whether the phone has Internet access at that moment or not.

That's the reason, by the way, that apps are the best way to do this for use on a phone - they are set up to make this a natural part of the purchase. If you use a website, you need to actively do this from the email otherwise you are relying on being online.
Apps are indeed good but if they don't have the same ticket buying customisation and advanced options as a Web site, then no matter how much a company tries to promote their app as being a convenient and great way to buy tickets, I won't do so.

It's why I have installed various apps from some train companies and third parties including TrainSplit but mostly use the TrainSplit or Rail UK Forum Web sites when buying online.

I sometimes wonder if the marketing people have actually used the apps much.

When an app is produced that is as good as a Web site I will consider switching to it.
 

Bletchleyite

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Apps are indeed good but if they don't have the same ticket buying customisation and advanced options as a Web site

Most of the tickets I purchase are simple ones and I expect that is true of most people. But the Trainline app does do splits, indeed it helped me discover one I use a lot that I am astonished exists!
 

BazingaTribe

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Indeed. The world is moving on and people increasingly purchase train tickets through apps as they find it more convenient. That’s not a dig at ticket office staff, it’s the way it is.

It’s similar to newspapers, the bottom is completely falling out of the market as people choose to get their news in a different way to 10 or 20 years ago.

Very true. My org is paperless and while you still need a good electronic filing system it's much easier for me to have everything that I need on my laptop or, if I forget it, on the cloud so I can use another work computer if necessary.

I actually made a point of thanking the team responsible for it because as autistic a large variety of paperwork can get overwhelming and thus for sensory processing, e-everything makes a difference to me, including not creating a fire hazard at home with a lot of paper detritus as well. (Third-party laptop chargers are safer than they were, as are electric blankets, and as I used to be a bit paranoid about fire, I take a lot of precautions at home not to let it happen. My late husband banned open flames and candles and when I was left on my own, I took out pretty good home insurance to make sure my autism didn't accidentally do anything that could leave me in trouble if something terrible were to happen.)

Elderly who aren't tech savvy as they predate it are literally dying off. It won't be long before almost every elderly person uses tech. Ten years maybe?

Twenty years and Gen X will be starting to count as elderly. Gen X is almost completely tech savvy.

Yeah, my parents are boomers and in their 70s and are confident users of smartphones. My mum is glued to hers, my dad is less connected but still incredibly computer literate (he taught me to program our BBC micro when I was 5 and had a PC by the time I was 10) and my sister and I are the generation that grew up with video games as a standard form of entertainment. I tried to write my own but I was a bit young to be one of the 'bedroom programmer' generation and too autistic to plan out coding projects in my mind. I'm good at facts and figures but struggle with the cognitive capacity to visualise individual objects as a single system.

Most of my friends are Gen X (I'm just below the cut-off point but not quite a millennial, although I'd identify more with millennials) and they're mostly programmers -- although I met them through a sci-fi club, so that would skew things a lot too.

I don't believe that you speak for the way that most of us use eTickets or smart phones.

Yeah, agreed. A lot of these kind of enthusiast forums attract a lot of switched on people, but we're generally exceptions to the rule. I do try to switch off my enthusiast brain when doing anything for any forum that requires analysing audience behaviour, and that's actually been a lot more helpful in showing me where either the issues lie or what to do to target the actual audience out there.

Having been a commuter for ten years and still actively using the railways for work trips, I'm fairly confident in saying that you can prise e-tickets from my cold dead hands and I highly suspect their share of the market will eclipse paper if it hasn't already done so. It's ultimately just a means to an end for most people, so although I doubt paper will completely end up obsolete, it will probably end up being integrated into the e-system by way of TVMs and ticket offices just printing Aztec code tickets. (Basingstoke office already does that and has done for a matter of several years, so I wouldn't hold out much hope for, say, the next generation of TVMs not to do likewise.)
 

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