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Received a court notice for a ticket I know nothing about

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KieranDel

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6 Jan 2019
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16
hello...

I'm hoping someone can offer some advice because I am currently very worried (putting it mldly) over a letter from GWR which I opened today revealing a charge sheet and referencing Byelaw 18 (1)....

I recently moved back from Germany (September) to uk and have rented my house out for the past 2 years. I pop over to see my tenants once a month and today I collected my post and opened a letter which had a number of sheets inside. Page one was a letter dated 19th December stating I had 7 days to resolve a matter of traveling without a ticket on a train to Slough on 14th October and pay £146.90. It said if I don't wish to resolve the matter out of court I had 21 days from date of notice to plead guilty or not guilty.

There was also a letter dated 5th novemeber asking me to pay £70 for an outstanding penalty fare,

My house which is rented is number 6 yet he letter was addressed to number 66. So I'm guessing that the first letter never reached my actual home. I'm not quite sure how this currently one ended up at my address but anyway.

My name is Kieran yet the letter is addressed to Kevin. The date of birth is also incorrect so I am really confused. I live In SE London and have no reason to go to Slough!

It appears I now have to please guild or not guilty for a fare I know nothing about. I am going to ring the prosecution admin office tomorrow to argue my case but have been warned that they are not very helpful.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you
 
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Fawkes Cat

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Welcome to the forum.

It looks very much as if someone has given your details, and the railway think it is you.

The strict position is that at court, it is for the railway to prove that you are guilty, and not for you to prove that you are innocent. But in practice, I imagine that you will want to resolve things as quickly and simply as possible.

So
- as you are already doing, try to get in touch with the prosecutors. If you can talk to them, they may well understand that you are not the person they are looking for.
- if you cannot get in touch with the prosecutors, you need to plead 'not guilty' and make preparations to attend court.
- try to see what evidence you can find of what you were doing on 14 October. Essentially you want to show that you were not in Slough (or on the route to Slough) on that day. A good way of doing this would be to show that you were elsewhere. Credit or debit card receipts (or bank statements) are good for this, as are statements from friends or colleagues who can confirm that you were elsewhere. Again, I remind you that it is for prosecution to prove where you were, and not for you to prove where you weren't - but evidence that you were elsewhere makes it easier for you.
- at court, try to talk to the prosecutors beforehand. Explain your defence and try to get them to withdraw.
- if the worst comes to the worst, defend your case in court.

Essentially, try and talk to the other side. Make it clear that someone has used your name and address. You are not the first person it has happened to, and you won't be the last, so the other side will be willing to listen.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
hello...

I'm hoping someone can offer some advice because I am currently very worried (putting it mldly) over a letter from GWR which I opened today revealing a charge sheet and referencing Byelaw 18 (1)....

I recently moved back from Germany (September) to uk and have rented my house out for the past 2 years. I pop over to see my tenants once a month and today I collected my post and opened a letter which had a number of sheets inside. Page one was a letter dated 19th December stating I had 7 days to resolve a matter of traveling without a ticket on a train to Slough on 14th October and pay £146.90. It said if I don't wish to resolve the matter out of court I had 21 days from date of notice to plead guilty or not guilty.

There was also a letter dated 5th novemeber asking me to pay £70 for an outstanding penalty fare,

My house which is rented is number 6 yet he letter was addressed to number 66. So I'm guessing that the first letter never reached my actual home. I'm not quite sure how this currently one ended up at my address but anyway.

My name is Kieran yet the letter is addressed to Kevin. The date of birth is also incorrect so I am really confused. I live In SE London and have no reason to go to Slough!

It appears I now have to please guild or not guilty for a fare I know nothing about. I am going to ring the prosecution admin office tomorrow to argue my case but have been warned that they are not very helpful.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you
So, just to confirm, you haven't actually made any journey that this could be in relation to?

If so, of course plead 'not guilty' before the deadline, but you'll certainly want to contact GWR to tell them of the situation, pointing out the inconsistencies and asking if they have any evidence showing it was actually you.
 

cuccir

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3,659
Have you received a court summons, and if so, in what name? I presume that the surname is yours? Is all the communication to Kevin or is some of it to Kieran?
This isn't that uncommon a situation - perhaps unsurprisingly, the sort of people who evade railway fares are also often the sort of people who give false details! However, it's possible, given the name/date of birth discrepancy, that someone has given partial details and the railway company when investigating has found a K. Yoursurname at your address and taken a punt that it's the smae person.

We usually advise writing over phoning, because that way you can have a record of all communication. The only case in which I'd suggest phoning is if you have an impending court date, and thus time is of the essence. By my reckoning we are 18 days from the 19th December so if you can write a letter and send it next day delivery on the 8th January you should make their 21 day deadline.

If you have the time to write, then write a clear factual letter saying that:
* you have received this letter at your property
* you don't know anyone by the name of Kevin Yoursurname, DOB xx/xx/xx
* you are Kieran Yoursurname, DOB xx/xx/xx
* in case there is any confusion, you were not travelling in Slough on the 14th October
* state, in one or two sentences, what you were doing and where. Presuming it'd be possible to do so if needed, state you have witnessest that would be willing to testify to this. You don't need to provide these now; indeed, you don't need to say what you were doing at all but it helps show that you're serious
* you hope that the matter will now be closed and that, in the event of going to court, you'd be pleading not guilty

If time is tighter, I'd call and say much the same as that.
 

KieranDel

Member
Joined
6 Jan 2019
Messages
16
Welcome to the forum.

It looks very much as if someone has given your details, and the railway think it is you.

The strict position is that at court, it is for the railway to prove that you are guilty, and not for you to prove that you are innocent. But in practice, I imagine that you will want to resolve things as quickly and simply as possible.

So
- as you are already doing, try to get in touch with the prosecutors. If you can talk to them, they may well understand that you are not the person they are looking for.
- if you cannot get in touch with the prosecutors, you need to plead 'not guilty' and make preparations to attend court.
- try to see what evidence you can find of what you were doing on 14 October. Essentially you want to show that you were not in Slough (or on the route to Slough) on that day. A good way of doing this would be to show that you were elsewhere. Credit or debit card receipts (or bank statements) are good for this, as are statements from friends or colleagues who can confirm that you were elsewhere. Again, I remind you that it is for prosecution to prove where you were, and not for you to prove where you weren't - but evidence that you were elsewhere makes it easier for you.
- at court, try to talk to the prosecutors beforehand. Explain your defence and try to get them to withdraw.
- if the worst comes to the worst, defend your case in court.

Essentially, try and talk to the other side. Make it clear that someone has used your name and address. You are not the first person it has happened to, and you won't be the last, so the other side will be willing to listen.


Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to me. On the day in question I was in central London meeting a friend and visiting my gym in Picadilly Circus.

I really don't want to attend court. The thought of it fills me with dread.
 

gray1404

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You could also return the items back marked Return to Sender - Not Known At This Address and either hand it in at a Post Office, give it to the Postman/woman or pop it into any street Post Box. The letters are addressed to a different person at a different address with a different date of birth.

You could also try phoning them tomorrow to inform them but if they are rude to you or not helpful, not only is that unprofessional and wrong but you would have grounds for a complaint which you could take to the railway ombudsman if their reply is not satisfactory. Do you have an app that can record phone calls on your phone? Then you have proof for your own records of what was said.

The good news is it is up to the train company to prove who was there and to make sure it is the correct person. It is not for you to prove otherwise.
 

KieranDel

Member
Joined
6 Jan 2019
Messages
16
So, just to confirm, you haven't actually made any journey that this could be in relation to?

If so, of course plead 'not guilty' before the deadline, but you'll certainly want to contact GWR to tell them of the situation, pointing out the inconsistencies and asking if they have any evidence showing it was actually you.

Hiya, thank you for your reply. After checking back, I was in town that day visiting my gym and meeting a friend in west London, Ealing Broadway. Which is strangely mentioned in the report although I did not go to Slough!
 

Haywain

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So, the letter is not addressed to you at your address but to someone with a similar name at a similar address. It has probably been redirected by the postman who knows that the address is wrong based on a name he recognises (initial and surname). I doubt that a summons with such errors will carry much weight in court, but would advise following much of the advice given by cuccir above. However, you won't be pleading guilty as you are not the person accused.
 

KieranDel

Member
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6 Jan 2019
Messages
16
Have you received a court summons, and if so, in what name? I presume that the surname is yours? Is all the communication to Kevin or is some of it to Kieran?
This isn't that uncommon a situation - perhaps unsurprisingly, the sort of people who evade railway fares are also often the sort of people who give false details! However, it's possible, given the name/date of birth discrepancy, that someone has given partial details and the railway company when investigating has found a K. Yoursurname at your address and taken a punt that it's the smae person.

We usually advise writing over phoning, because that way you can have a record of all communication. The only case in which I'd suggest phoning is if you have an impending court date, and thus time is of the essence. By my reckoning we are 18 days from the 19th December so if you can write a letter and send it next day delivery on the 8th January you should make their 21 day deadline.

If you have the time to write, then write a clear factual letter saying that:
* you have received this letter at your property
* you don't know anyone by the name of Kevin Yoursurname, DOB xx/xx/xx
* you are Kieran Yoursurname, DOB xx/xx/xx
* in case there is any confusion, you were not travelling in Slough on the 14th October
* state, in one or two sentences, what you were doing and where. Presuming it'd be possible to do so if needed, state you have witnessest that would be willing to testify to this. You don't need to provide these now; indeed, you don't need to say what you were doing at all but it helps show that you're serious
* you hope that the matter will now be closed and that, in the event of going to court, you'd be pleading not guilty



If time is tighter, I'd call and say much the same as that.
Thank you very much for your detailed response. I really appreciate it.

I do worry that I was in town that day, not in Slough but close to ealing Broadway. Could they use video evidence from trains or tube stations to say I was in the facinty of one of the stations mentioned?

K
 

js1000

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I wouldn't worry a great deal about it as I concur with others that it is up to the TOC to prove it is you given you have not provided your details to a member of railway staff (i.e. RPI, Conductor etc) at any point - nor is it you who seems to have evaded fares based upon what you have said.

There's every chance the TOC have done some investigation work (electoral roll, addresses etc) and think you are the individual who owes unpaid fares and that you live at the address.

In a sense, they have "taken a punt" in the hope you'll confirm it is you and just pay up. If someone panicks and does pay up then it is quick money in a sense.

As others have said, it's up to the TOC to prove it's you AND you have fare evaded. To confirm it is definitely you there is data protection and administrative costs involved that make it prohibitive so it wouldn't surprise me if they just dropped the case (depending on if we're talking a few hundred pound rather than thousands) if they heard nothing back.

TOC debt recovery units prefer to spend time on passengers who have given false details or passengers who have given details to railway staff but ignore letters to tell them to pay up as usually evading a fare has been proven (i.e. "strict liability" offence) and it's a simple case of collecting it in the Magistrates.

Proving someone fare evaded but not having their details is a rigmorale that TOCs prefer to avoid given the legal and administrative ramifications - unless of course the person in question is suspected of being a repeat serial fare evader which would necessitate extra resources.

If I were you, on the basis of:
1. You're not the person on the court summons
2. You have not provided your name and details to any member of railway staff at any point
3. You have not fare evaded (I assume you're telling the truth as you state)

I would agree with gray1404 and suggest returning the letter with "Return to sender - not known at this address". It is not your problem and as I say, there is an element of the TOC "chancing their arm" in the hope they make a quick buck. It wouldn't surprise me if you heard nothing back from them but I also wouldn't expect a letter of apology sadly.
 
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KieranDel

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Joined
6 Jan 2019
Messages
16
Have you received a court summons, and if so, in what name? I presume that the surname is yours? Is all the communication to Kevin or is some of it to Kieran?
This isn't that uncommon a situation - perhaps unsurprisingly, the sort of people who evade railway fares are also often the sort of people who give false details! However, it's possible, given the name/date of birth discrepancy, that someone has given partial details and the railway company when investigating has found a K. Yoursurname at your address and taken a punt that it's the smae person.

We usually advise writing over phoning, because that way you can have a record of all communication. The only case in which I'd suggest phoning is if you have an impending court date, and thus time is of the essence. By my reckoning we are 18 days from the 19th December so if you can write a letter and send it next day delivery on the 8th January you should make their 21 day deadline.

If you have the time to write, then write a clear factual letter saying that:
* you have received this letter at your property
* you don't know anyone by the name of Kevin Yoursurname, DOB xx/xx/xx
* you are Kieran Yoursurname, DOB xx/xx/xx
* in case there is any confusion, you were not travelling in Slough on the 14th October
* state, in one or two sentences, what you were doing and where. Presuming it'd be possible to do so if needed, state you have witnessest that would be willing to testify to this. You don't need to provide these now; indeed, you don't need to say what you were doing at all but it helps show that you're serious
* you hope that the matter will now be closed and that, in the event of going to court, you'd be pleading not guilty

If time is tighter, I'd call and say much the same as that.

sorry just answering your first questions, I have received a Single Justice Procedure Notice, stating I have 7 days to resolve the matter by settling out of court - the letter was sent on the 19th December.

The letter was sent to the wrong door number, and the first name was incorrect. So its not in my first name but has my Surname.
 

KieranDel

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Joined
6 Jan 2019
Messages
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So, the letter is not addressed to you at your address but to someone with a similar name at a similar address. It has probably been redirected by the postman who knows that the address is wrong based on a name he recognises (initial and surname). I doubt that a summons with such errors will carry much weight in court, but would advise following much of the advice given by cuccir above. However, you won't be pleading guilty as you are not the person accused.
Correct, wrong door number and wrong first name.
 

KieranDel

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6 Jan 2019
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I wouldn't worry a great deal about it as I concur with others that it is up to the TOC to prove it is you given you have not provided your details to a member of railway staff (i.e. RPI, Conductor etc) any point - nor is it you who seems to have evaded fares based upon what you have said.

There's every chance the TOC have done some investigation work and suspect you are the individual who owes unpaid fares and that you live at the address.

In a sense, they have "taken a punt" in the hope you'll confirm it is you and just pay up. It's quick money in a sense.

Giving false details or ignoring letters when you've given your details to a member of railway staff is a different kettle of fish.
Ok but if the TOC did some investigation then surely they would have correct the details, as in address the letter to the correct person, i.e right first name, the correct door number, and correct DOB?!
 

Darandio

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Far too much new information arriving here too quickly.

Hiya, thank you for your reply. After checking back, I was in town that day visiting my gym and meeting a friend in west London, Ealing Broadway. Which is strangely mentioned in the report although I did not go to Slough!

Are you saying the report mirrors your movements for the day, but it wasn't you?

Many posts are emphasising wrong surnames and door numbers (often used in the hope of no case if the details are incorrect) and now a worry you could be seen on CCTV. I can't be the only one with the old spidey sense tingling.
 

KieranDel

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Joined
6 Jan 2019
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You could also return the items back marked Return to Sender - Not Known At This Address and either hand it in at a Post Office, give it to the Postman/woman or pop it into any street Post Box. The letters are addressed to a different person at a different address with a different date of birth.

You could also try phoning them tomorrow to inform them but if they are rude to you or not helpful, not only is that unprofessional and wrong but you would have grounds for a complaint which you could take to the railway ombudsman if their reply is not satisfactory. Do you have an app that can record phone calls on your phone? Then you have proof for your own records of what was said.

The good news is it is up to the train company to prove who was there and to make sure it is the correct person. It is not for you to prove otherwise.
Yes I did consider doing exactly this, (sending it back)it just freaked me out that the letter made it to my house considering it had wrong details.
 

KieranDel

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I wouldn't worry a great deal about it as I concur with others that it is up to the TOC to prove it is you given you have not provided your details to a member of railway staff (i.e. RPI, Conductor etc) at any point - nor is it you who seems to have evaded fares based upon what you have said.

There's every chance the TOC have done some investigation work (electoral roll, addresses etc) and think you are the individual who owes unpaid fares and that you live at the address.

In a sense, they have "taken a punt" in the hope you'll confirm it is you and just pay up. If someone panicks and does pay up then it is quick money in a sense.

As others have said, it's up to the TOC to prove it's you AND you have fare evaded. To confirm it is definitely you there is data protection and administrative costs involved that make it prohibitive so it wouldn't surprise me if they just dropped the case (depending on if we're talking a few hundred pound rather than thousands) if they heard nothing back.

TOC debt recovery units prefer to spend time on passengers who have given false details or passengers who have given details to railway staff but ignore letters to tell them to pay up as usually evading a fare has been proven (i.e. "strict liability" offence) and it's a simple case of collecting it in the Magistrates.

Proving someone fare evaded but not having their details is a rigmorale that TOCs prefer to avoid given the legal and administrative ramifications - unless of course the person in question is suspected of being a serial fare evader.

But have would you differentiate from (To confirm it is definitely you there is data protection and administrative costs involved that make it prohibitive so it wouldn't surprise me if they just dropped the case (depending on if we're talking a few hundred pound rather than thousands) if they heard nothing back.) to TOC debt recovery units prefer to spend time on passengers who have given false details or passengers who have given details to railway staff but ignore letters to tell them to pay up as usually evading a fare has been proven)?
 

KieranDel

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I wouldn't worry a great deal about it as I concur with others that it is up to the TOC to prove it is you given you have not provided your details to a member of railway staff (i.e. RPI, Conductor etc) at any point - nor is it you who seems to have evaded fares based upon what you have said.

There's every chance the TOC have done some investigation work (electoral roll, addresses etc) and think you are the individual who owes unpaid fares and that you live at the address.

In a sense, they have "taken a punt" in the hope you'll confirm it is you and just pay up. If someone panicks and does pay up then it is quick money in a sense.

As others have said, it's up to the TOC to prove it's you AND you have fare evaded. To confirm it is definitely you there is data protection and administrative costs involved that make it prohibitive so it wouldn't surprise me if they just dropped the case (depending on if we're talking a few hundred pound rather than thousands) if they heard nothing back.

TOC debt recovery units prefer to spend time on passengers who have given false details or passengers who have given details to railway staff but ignore letters to tell them to pay up as usually evading a fare has been proven (i.e. "strict liability" offence) and it's a simple case of collecting it in the Magistrates.

Proving someone fare evaded but not having their details is a rigmorale that TOCs prefer to avoid given the legal and administrative ramifications - unless of course the person in question is suspected of being a serial fare evader.
How did you travel to Ealing Broadway? Trains to Slough stop there.
Via Centra line.
 

js1000

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But have would you differentiate from (To confirm it is definitely you there is data protection and administrative costs involved that make it prohibitive so it wouldn't surprise me if they just dropped the case (depending on if we're talking a few hundred pound rather than thousands) if they heard nothing back.) to TOC debt recovery units prefer to spend time on passengers who have given false details or passengers who have given details to railway staff but ignore letters to tell them to pay up as usually evading a fare has been proven)?
I'm slightly confused. You seem more concerned than you should be.

Can I just confirm - you did travel with a valid ticket that covered your entire journey on the day in question (14th October)?

I'm assuming:
1. At no point did you travel beyond Ealing Broadway to Slough
2. You did not provide any details to a member of railway staff (i.e. revenue protection inspector or conductor)
 

KieranDel

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I wouldn't worry a great deal about it as I concur with others that it is up to the TOC to prove it is you given you have not provided your details to a member of railway staff (i.e. RPI, Conductor etc) at any point - nor is it you who seems to have evaded fares based upon what you have said.

There's every chance the TOC have done some investigation work (electoral roll, addresses etc) and think you are the individual who owes unpaid fares and that you live at the address.

In a sense, they have "taken a punt" in the hope you'll confirm it is you and just pay up. If someone panicks and does pay up then it is quick money in a sense.

As others have said, it's up to the TOC to prove it's you AND you have fare evaded. To confirm it is definitely you there is data protection and administrative costs involved that make it prohibitive so it wouldn't surprise me if they just dropped the case (depending on if we're talking a few hundred pound rather than thousands) if they heard nothing back.

TOC debt recovery units prefer to spend time on passengers who have given false details or passengers who have given details to railway staff but ignore letters to tell them to pay up as usually evading a fare has been proven (i.e. "strict liability" offence) and it's a simple case of collecting it in the Magistrates.

Proving someone fare evaded but not having their details is a rigmorale that TOCs prefer to avoid given the legal and administrative ramifications - unless of course the person in question is suspected of being a repeat serial fare evader which would necessitate extra resources.

If I were you, on the basis of:
1. You're not the person on the court summons
2. You have not provided your name and details to any member of railway staff at any point
3. You have not fare evaded (I assume you're telling the truth as you state)

I would agree with gray1404 and suggest returning the letter with "Return to sender - not known at this address". It is not your problem and as I say, there is an element of the TOC "chancing their arm" in the hope they make a quick buck. It wouldn't surprise me if you heard nothing back from them but I also wouldn't expect a letter of apology sadly.
Thank you so much, very helpful indeed.
 

Fawkes Cat

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You could also return the items back marked Return to Sender - Not Known At This Address and either hand it in at a Post Office, give it to the Postman/woman or pop it into any street Post Box.

I would strongly advise against this, as

1) What would a fare evader do? They would do everything they could to put the railway off their scent - such as refusing to accept a letter. If I was in the prosecutions office, my response to having a letter returned would be to at least continue to prosecution, and quite possibly to take further steps to identify the offender (but starting from the erroneous assumption that they already had the right person who was not co-operating). By returning the letter to sender, you look like a fare evader.
2) I assume that your aim here is not to have your day in court, but to make the problem go away as quickly and painlessly as possible. And the easiest way to do that is to help the prosecution understand that they have been misled by someone other than you.
 

talltim

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I have say the fact you rented your house out previously is a red flag. Sound like a previous tenant trying to think of a name and address quickly, then thinking, ‘I’ll just change it a bit’.
 

30907

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I would stick with cuccir's advice in #4, perhaps expanding the first point to explain that you opened the letter as the name and address were similar enough for you to assume it was intended for you.

Ok but if the TOC did some investigation then surely they would have correct the details, as in address the letter to the correct person, i.e right first name, the correct door number, and correct DOB?!
Your response to js1000 here is entirely correct. The TOC has simply used the details supplied to them. Incidentally the Electoral Roll does not have DOB.
 
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AlterEgo

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So you were renting the house out and living in Germany, yet were also in Ealing Broadway in October (curiously enough your exact reason for travel was recorded by the inspector!) - and likely travelling on the line in question on a train bound for Slough the same day.

I think we could do with a little more clarity.
 
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cuccir

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So you were renting the house out and living in Germany, yet were also in Ealing Broadway in October

While it's healthy to be a bit sceptical:
1. The first post clearly states that he returned from Germany in September.
2. He has stated that he travelled on the Central line to Ealing Broadway. Last time I checked, the tube did not go to Slough
3. Fundamentally, Ealing and Slough are not that close.

With all people who post here, there's an outside chance that they're bull-plopping us, and fishing for help in trying to avoid something; in the event they are, then frankly following any advice we give them is likely to get them in more trouble, not less.
 

AlterEgo

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Wherever I post asking for more clarity or casting doubt on an OP's story, this is actually to help them. TOCs and Courts are not (always) dumb and a poor story will not wash.

The OP should think about who - other than himself - might know, on the day of the offence, his exact plans, and regurgitate them exactly to an inspector, pretending to be him.
 

Bertie the bus

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Are you saying the report mirrors your movements for the day, but it wasn't you?

Many posts are emphasising wrong surnames and door numbers (often used in the hope of no case if the details are incorrect) and now a worry you could be seen on CCTV. I can't be the only one with the old spidey sense tingling.
If we assume the OP is being truthful, the fact they travelled to Ealing Broadway could be a reason somebody gave their details. To put it politely some people are quite naïve when using the phone in public places. He could have been on the phone, gave his name and address to some company he was talking to and some random person in the carriage decided to use it and take a stab at his DoB. Obviously that tactic wouldn’t get you very far if the RPI had checked the details given but many fare dodgers aren’t that bright either.

I’m not saying that is what happened but it is surprising the amount of information people provide on the phone, often quite loudly, in public places. Though the concern about CCTV footage is a bit strange as surely if this footage was viewed it would show his movements weren’t those of the accused.
 

KieranDel

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I would stick with cuccir's advice in #4, perhaps expanding the first point to explain that you opened the letter as the name and address were similar enough for you to assume it was intended for you.


Your response to js1000 here is entirely correct. The TOC has simply used the details supplied to them. Incidentally the Electoral Roll does not have DOB.
So I am now just thinking of not responding to them at all. The letter has a wrong surname and not even more correct door number and clearly the only way this second letter has made it to my house is down to the post man. If I hand the letter back to the post office with a "not known at this address' on it, should that be the end of it?
 
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