Recently installed ticket machine at Wymondham station

[TurbostarFan]

At my local station, Wymondham (WMD) a ticket vending machine was recently installed but only accepts card payments. I wish to travel to another station between either Wymondham and Norwich or between Wymondham and Ely but have no cash so will have to pay by card. As it is a paytrain service a conductor will be onboard to sell tickets to passengers who do not have one without incurring a penalty fare. There might be a reason that I wish to buy my ticket from the conductor rather than the TVM e.g. lack of time, personal preference or a lack of patience. In such a case am I actually obliged to purchase my ticket from the TVM before I board the train or am I allowed to do so from the conductor onboard? I will point out that Wymondham does have a sign saying that you can buy your ticket on board but it is old and predates the installation of the TVM. Does it still stand?

 

[PermitToTravel]

The sign is still current, though be careful that it doesn't get removed without you noticing

 

[yorkie]

At my local station, Wymondham (WMD) a ticket vending machine was recently installed but only accepts card payments. I wish to travel to another station between either Wymondham and Norwich or between Wymondham and Ely but have no cash so will have to pay by card. As it is a paytrain service a conductor will be onboard to sell tickets to passengers who do not have one without incurring a penalty fare. There might be a reason that I wish to buy my ticket from the conductor rather than the TVM e.g. lack of time, personal preference or a lack of patience. In such a case am I actually obliged to purchase my ticket from the TVM before I board the train or am I allowed to do so from the conductor onboard? I will point out that Wymondham does have a sign saying that you can buy your ticket on board but it is old and predates the installation of the TVM. Does it still stand?

It's a grey area.

How visible is the machine? How visible is the sign?

I would advise against using a card to pay on board.

I expect it will be removed shortly, as train companies do read this forum!

 

[TurbostarFan]

The sign is still current, though be careful that it doesn't get removed without you noticing

I doubt it, a member of Greater Anglia (GA) staff said that as all of their services on the line are paytrains they won't be changing their current policy which states that they allow people to board without a ticket except between Ely and Cambridge or when boarding at Norwich or Ely stations. EMT also run a limited train service to and from Wymondham station and EMT policy in that respect is at the moment is the same as that of GA. GA are the company who manage it so I doubt that EMT will change their policy to vary from that of GA.

 

[yorkie]

I doubt it, a member of Greater Anglia (GA) staff said that as all of their services on the line are paytrains they won't be changing their current policy which states that they allow people to board without a ticket except between Ely and Cambridge or when boarding at Norwich or Ely stations. EMT also run a limited train service to and from Wymondham station and EMT policy in that respect is at the moment is the same as that of GA. GA are the company who manage it so I doubt that EMT will change their policy to vary from that of GA.

Do you have this in writing from either company?

 

[TurbostarFan]

It's a grey area.

How visible is the machine? How visible is the sign?

I would advise against using a card to pay on board.

I expect it will be removed shortly, as train companies do read this forum!

I would say visible enough to be noticed if you are entering the station from the main car park but not from the other side of the station by platform 2. The sign is quite visible but again only in that area of the station.

Fair point but why not?

 

[TurbostarFan]

Do you have this in writing from either company?

No I don't unless you count GA's leaflet on penalty fares which states that PFs cannot be issued in the above circumstances.

 

[yorkie]

If you choose not to use the machine, they are in their rights to charge the full Anytime fare (no Off Peak or Railcard discounts) according to the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

I agree that a sign saying you can buy on board should over-rule that, however it is unclear if that is a mistake or not (and as others have said, it could be removed). Furthermore, if it was felt that you were deliberately choosing not to use the ticket machine because you hoped you wouldn't have to pay on the train, the matter could be investigated further.

All this can be avoided by using cash, if the machine does not accept cash.

 

[TurbostarFan]

If you choose not to use the machine, they are in their rights to charge the full Anytime fare (no Off Peak or Railcard discounts)

Fair point but are there any other reasons?

 

[yorkie]

It's a grey area; what do you mean by "personal preference"?

Also would there be a ticket office at your destination station?

I think if you were just rushing then the sign saying you can buy on board is clear evidence that you did nothing wrong.

But if you were hanging around waiting and choosing not to use a ticket that accepted your chosen payment method and was capable of issuing the correct fare, then you risk something like this happening:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/travel-irregularity-grantham-to-newark-northgate.173929/

.... I panicked saying I was "late for the train".

However he had seen me on the platform and followed me onto the train thus knew I my story was false. From here he took my details...

If the company has a definite policy of selling the full range of fares on board no questions asked then fair enough, but if not, what would you say if you were asked why you didn't use the machine?

 

[TurbostarFan]

It's a grey area; what do you mean by "personal preference"?

Also would there be a ticket office at your destination station?

I think if you were just rushing then the sign saying you can buy on board is all the evidence you need that the company is relaxing its requirement.

But if you were hanging around waiting then you risk something like this happening:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/travel-irregularity-grantham-to-newark-northgate.173929/


If the company has a definite policy of selling the full range of fares on board no questions asked then fair enough, but if not, what would you say if you were asked why you didn't use the machine?

1) Here's an example: my father is 59 years old and generally struggles with the use of computer based equipment. He does not fancy spending much of his personal life trying to make these TVMs work despite lacking the competency to do so. This is likely to result in him losing patience and just giving up on the machine.

2) It depends on where, Norwich, Thetford (part time only) Ely and Cambridge stations have ticket offices but the rest of the stations on the Breckland line don't necessarily have them.

3) Fair point, that is why as a computer literate young man I would always buy before I board if I have the time unless I have the cash to pay the fare onboard (if possible) or failing that at my destination.

4) GA most certainly do (with the above exceptions) and so do EMT (but only as above). Hypothetically speaking my answer would most likely be that I did not leave enough time to queue up (if applicable) and then operate the machine before waiting for the ticket and my receipt. Before then walking to my platform and then wait for my train (I like to play it safe just in case) and then board it.

 

[Hadders]

The most straightforward thing to to is to use the TVM. Once you get the hang of them they're not that difficult to use.

Train Operating Companies are far from perfect and there are many areas where they need to up their game but I generally don't have an issue with insisting that passengers obtain a ticket before boarding a train.

We don't have paytrains any longer. Bear in mind that most guards will be happy to sell a ticket on board (as they get commision from on board sales) but purchasing onboard could be risky:

- what if the guard doesn't come through and there's a revenue block at the destination
- an unco-operative guard
- what if RPIs board the train and carry out a check

This could result in a stressful journey and might even involve having to enter into dialogue with the train company to get the matter resolved.

 

[TurbostarFan]

The most straightforward thing to to is to use the TVM. Once you get the hang of them they're not that difficult to use.

Train Operating Companies are far from perfect and there are many areas where they need to up their game but I generally don't have an issue with insisting that passengers obtain a ticket before boarding a train.

We don't have paytrains any longer. Bear in mind that most guards will be happy to sell a ticket on board (as they get commision from on board sales) but purchasing onboard could be risky:

- what if the guard doesn't come through and there's a revenue block at the destination
- an unco-operative guard
- what if RPIs board the train and carry out a check

This could result in a stressful journey and might even involve having to enter into dialogue with the train company to get the matter resolved.

I have to disagree, Greater Anglia services do not have penalty fares between Norwich and Ely and are still paytrains.

1) There will be people with ticket machines on the passenger side of the barriers at Norwich in such a event. This is the only station with barriers between Norwich and Ely if that is what you mean.
2) Not gonna happen on Greater Anglia.
3) Not gonna happen on Greater Anglia.

 

[gray1404]

Regardless of if a PF scheme is in operation, if it is possible to buy the ticket you require using your chosen payment method before boarding the train, you must do so. Otherwise you could be reported for prosecution.

 

[TurbostarFan]

Regardless of if a PF scheme is in operation, if it is possible to buy the ticket you require using your chosen payment method before boarding the train, you must do so. Otherwise you could be reported for prosecution.

You raise a fair point but could the presence of the sign at the station amount to a defence to the charge? I am talking about an RRA prosecution, not a Bylaw one.

 

[Hadders]

The NRCoT is quite clear that if ticketing issuing facilities are available then you must purchase a ticket before you board the train. If you do not do this you are committing an offence.

The ‘pay when challenged’ culture is a huge problem for many TOCs, you only need to read the Disputes section of this forum about issues in South Wales. Greater Anglia might well adopt a similar stance to TfW and ATW before them.

 

[TurbostarFan]

The NRCoT is quite clear that if ticketing issuing facilities are available then you must purchase a ticket before you board the train. If you do not do this you are committing an offence.

The ‘pay when challenged’ culture is a huge problem for many TOCs, you only need to read the Disputes section of this forum about issues in South Wales. Greater Anglia might well adopt a similar stance to TfW and ATW before them.

Fair point but would this necessarily mean that the traveller would be guilty of an offence under the RRA?

 

[Hadders]

Fair point but would this necessarily mean that the traveller would be guilty of an offence under the RRA?

I’m not a lawyer, others are better places to advise on the minutiae of the law.

However, don’t underestimate the hassle an incident can cause. Having details taken, waiting for letters from TOC Prosecution Departments, responding to what are usually quite threatening letters etc etc. Is it really worth this hassle?

Of course you might be lucky and be sold a ticket every time without hassle. But you need to be prepared for what might happen on the odd occasion.

As I said initially the most straightforward way is simply to learn how to use the TVM. It’s really not that hard for a normal ticket.

 

[TurbostarFan]

I’m not a lawyer, others are better places to advise on the minutiae of the law.

However, don’t underestimate the hassle an incident can cause. Having details taken, waiting for letters from TOC Prosecution Departments, responding to what are usually quite threatening letters etc etc. Is it really worth this hassle?

Of course you might be lucky and be sold a ticket every time without hassle. But you need to be prepared for what might happen on the odd occasion.

As I said initially the most straightforward way is simply to learn how to use the TVM. It’s really not that hard for a normal ticket.

Fair points raised, I still consider it worth the effort in the hope of setting a precedent.

That aside, I accept that I asked the wrong question. What I should have asked is: would the court consider this point of contract when deciding whether or not you were guilty of an offence under the RRA? AFAIK they are separate things, one of which is a contract and the other of which is an Act of Parliament.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Fair points raised, I still consider it worth the effort in the hope of setting a precedent.

That aside, I accept that I asked the wrong question. What I should have asked is: would the court consider this point of contract when deciding whether or not you were guilty of an offence under the RRA? AFAIK they are separate things, one of which is a contract and the other of which is an Act of Parliament.

At the Magistrates' Court's Single Justice Procedure you would be setting nothing that is a precedent in a legal sense. It's not even the regular Magistrate's Court, let alone the Crown Court!

 

[Hadders]

Fair points raised, I still consider it worth the effort in the hope of setting a precedent.

That aside, I accept that I asked the wrong question. What I should have asked is: would the court consider this point of contract when deciding whether or not you were guilty of an offence under the RRA? AFAIK they are separate things, one of which is a contract and the other of which is an Act of Parliament.

Have look at some of the threads about Cardiff Central. I suspect that there are many people successfully prosecuted in that area for not using a TVM. We only get to hear about a very small minority of the overall cases.

 

[TurbostarFan]

At the Magistrates' Court's Single Justice Procedure you would be setting nothing that is a precedent in a legal sense. It's not even the regular Magistrate's Court, let alone the Crown Court!

You raise a good point, that is exactly why I would plead not guilty if I wanted to set a precedent in the legal sense. In such a case I would have to have a trial before a Magistrates Court and would then have the automatic right to appeal to the Crown Court if I lost. If I lost my appeal I could then appeal the Crown Courts decision to the High Court by way of case stated.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Have look at some of the threads about Cardiff Central. I suspect that there are many people successfully prosecuted in that area for not using a TVM. We only get to hear about a very small minority of the overall cases.

I think the actual circumstances vary quite significantly. If someone admitted to having intent to avoid the fare, it wouldn't matter if their boarding station didn't have any ticketing facilities at all. The presence of a TVM may be incidental evidence but merely failing to use a TVM is not, on its own, going to lead to a RoRA conviction.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

You raise a good point, that is exactly why I would plead not guilty if I wanted to set a precedent in the legal sense. In such a case I would have to have a trial before a Magistrates Court and would then have the automatic right to appeal to the Crown Court if I lost. If I lost my appeal I could then appeal the Crown Courts decision to the High Court by way of case stated.

I hope you're aware of the costs implications of taking it to the Crown Court, let alone the High Court!

What would the basis of your 'not guilty' plea, and subsequent appeal, be?

 

[TurbostarFan]

Have look at some of the threads about Cardiff Central. I suspect that there are many people successfully prosecuted in that area for not using a TVM. We only get to hear about a very small minority of the overall cases.

A good question to ask would be did they plead guilty and if so on what advice? A lot of solicitors get that sort of thing wrong, especially if not specialised in that area.

That aside, fair point. But then again Cardiff Central has ticket barriers so may be completely different in a legal sense, I also hasten to add that ATW services departing that station are not paytrains.

 

[TurbostarFan]

I hope you're aware of the costs implications of taking it to the Crown Court, let alone the High Court!

What would the basis of your 'not guilty' plea, and subsequent appeal, be?

I am aware in relation to the Magistrates and Crown Courts, the basis of the "not guilty" plea would be a lack of intent to evade the fare i.e. I intended to buy my ticket onboard the train and an abuse of process on the basis of the signage at Wymondham station.

 

[eastdyke]

I am aware in relation to the Magistrates and Crown Courts, the basis of the "not guilty" plea would be a lack of intent to evade the fare i.e. I intended to buy my ticket onboard the train and an abuse of process on the basis of the signage at Wymondham station.

And having identified what you believe to be an issue of importance regarding travel on their trains, why do you simply not write to GA and perhaps also to EMT?
That should clear it up.

 

[TurbostarFan]

And having identified what you believe to be an issue of importance regarding travel on their trains, why do you simply not write to GA and perhaps also to EMT?
That should clear it up.

Appears to be an even better idea, thank you for your advice.

 

[maniacmartin]

I expect that the sign will be removed in the next few weeks, especially if you write to them and tip them off of the existence it.

 

[Sleepy]

GA are still in a mess thanks to guard strike earlier this year / no driver agreement to operate doors on new stock, don't think they will be interested in rocking the boat with passengers over tickets - most regulars know they will need a ticket to exit stations at Norwich or Cambridge so fare evasion is minimal on this route.