Refund for tickets purchased to avoid use of a rail replacement bus

[Intercity 225]

Hi,

Following on from my previous thread I was informed by EMT staff that the only option I could take using my existing ticket was to take the rail replacement bus between Sheffield and Stockport/Manchester and that if I wanted to travel via Leeds I'd need to purchase another ticket.

Considering the bus was a slightly shorter journey time and because I could've done with being in Manchester as soon as possible I decided to take the RRB only to be informed that I'd need to put most of my luggage in the hold (four bags on my person). I declined to board the bus if that was a prerequisite condition, considering that amongst my luggage were items of high value that I wasn't prepared to leave my possession. If I were to complete my journey by rail this wouldn't have been a problem - if onboard carriage space were an issue I'd have stood in the vestibule with my luggage - I didn't have this option with the RRB.

As a result I purchased new tickets to travel via Leeds which has cost me £32.80 and I'm not happy about this outlay considering the circumstances. I bought my original Open Return ticket in good faith under the impression that I'd be able to use the railway for the entirety of my journeys in both directions and more importantly that if I wasn't able to I wouldn't need to leave my possessions unattended at any point in order to travel.

I intend to seek a refund for the tickets I've purchased today - any advice regarding the best way to do so would be greatly appreciated.

As a final point I'd like to explain that I do understand that railway maintenance work is essential and that carrying it out on Sundays is often the best option. I have no issue with the delay to my journey (by means of RRB or detour) as a result of the work being undertaken.

Many Thanks

 

[Gareth Marston]

Why didn't you check if there was engineering work before purchasing your ticket?

 

[Intercity 225]

Should I have really needed to? I'd be willing to hazard a guess that 90%+ of travellers don't.

Regardless, that's by the bye - I've taken the most reasonable route available to me using the rail network I purchased a ticket to use because I didn't want to be separated from my possessions - do you consider this to be an unreasonable decision?

And I needed to travel from Chesterfield to Manchester today, going yesterday or tomorrow wouldn't have been suitable for me.

 

[yorkie]

Original tickets - what were they exactly? Who was the retailer? Single or return? Where/when did you buy them? Did any itinerary checking or conversation take place?

Replacement tickets - again, what were they exactly and who was the retailer? Single or return? Did you ask if it was possible to excess the original tickets? What route did you take?

If return tickets were involved, was this on your outward or return portion? Are the original tickets wholly unused?

At present, I couldn't begin to advise as there are far too many unknowns!

 

[OwlMan]

Under section 27 of the NCT you are only allowed 3 pieces of luggage

 

[b9_624]

Under section 27 of the NCT you are only allowed 3 pieces of luggage

It's section 23 but yeah it does say you're only allowed 3 items.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Should I have really needed to? I'd be willing to hazard a guess that 90%+ of travellers don't.

Regardless, that's by the bye - I've taken the most reasonable route available to me using the rail network I purchased a ticket to use because I didn't want to be separated from my possessions - do you consider this to be an unreasonable decision?

And I needed to travel from Chesterfield to Manchester today, going yesterday or tomorrow wouldn't have been suitable for me.

To be quite frank YES as you say yourself you understand that the railway does do engineering on Sunday's so you should check in case it is occurring. The automated announcements and the PIS screen here advise passengers to check if travelling at weekends.

We had a blockade here all weekend and RRB numbers were down 40% on the previous Saturday and the number of people I spoke to yesterday that didn't know were counted on one hand. So if Mid Walians can check....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Under section 27 of the NCT you are only allowed 3 pieces of luggage

You can have more but they are chargeable at child fare.

 

[Wallsendmag]

You can have more but they are chargeable at child fare.

To a max of £5 per single journey

 

[mallard]

It sounds like you abandoned your original journey due to disruption and instead purchased a new ticket for an alternative journey.

If this is the case and you weren't informed of the disruption at the time of purchase, surely NRCoT section 30.1 applies and you're entitled to a full refund on the original ticket?

 

[button_boxer]

It sounds like you abandoned your original journey due to disruption and instead purchased a new ticket for an alternative journey.

If this is the case and you weren't informed of the disruption at the time of purchase, surely NRCoT section 30.1 applies and you're entitled to a full refund on the original ticket?

From the previous thread it looks like the original ticket was Chesterfield to Manchester, so 30.1 would only apply if the journey was actually abandoned and you returned to Chesterfield, not if you decide to cut it short at Sheffield but don't go back home.

This Condition applies to all Tickets, including Tickets (such as advance Tickets) that are otherwise non-refundable, and also applies if you have begun your journey but are unable to complete it due to delay or cancellations and return to your point of origin.

(my bold)

 

[londonbridge]

Should I have really needed to? I'd be willing to hazard a guess that 90%+ of travellers don't.

I used to take this approach until a couple of incidents in which my usual and preferred route turned out to be unavailable, necessitating detours which almost caused me to miss appontments. Now I tend to check for planned works more often than not.

 

[Magicake]

To be quite frank YES as you say yourself you understand that the railway does do engineering on Sunday's so you should check in case it is occurring. The automated announcements and the PIS screen here advise passengers to check if travelling at weekends.

We had a blockade here all weekend and RRB numbers were down 40% on the previous Saturday and the number of people I spoke to yesterday that didn't know were counted on one hand. So if Mid Walians can check....

Also the % of travellers who don't check are prepared to travel on the RRB. If you have a special requirement that you can only travel by train it would seem sensible to check.

 

[ASharpe]

If onboard carriage space were an issue I'd have stood in the vestibule with my luggage - I didn't have this option with the RRB.

How would you have felt if you were told your luggage had to go onto the guards compartment on the train? I've had to do that a couple of times and it's a regular enough occurrence for East Coast staff to have tags with the destination pre printed.

 

[AlterEgo]

You can have more but they are chargeable at child fare.

Luggage can be refused on a RRB.

27.3 entitles the OP to a refund if his luggage could not be carried. Not sure this was the case here though.

 

[bb21]

I can't really see any valid grounds for complaint in the OP's case, so if it were one of my cases my decision would be a refund of the unused part of the original ticket, as a rule of thumb. Sorry to disappoint.

 

[RJ]

Should I have really needed to? I'd be willing to hazard a guess that 90%+ of travellers don't.

This is the UK. On weekends, you check before you travel as there are closures, somewhere, every single weekend of the year. Station staff can assist with this, or you can call National Rail, or check on the National Rail website.

But you risk disappointment if you decide not to check until you start the journey.

 

[Intercity 225]

Thank you for the useful replies and apologies for the delay getting back to you, I've been working seven days a week since my post and haven't had time to properly frequent the forum.

Original tickets - what were they exactly? Who was the retailer? Single or return? Where/when did you buy them? Did any itinerary checking or conversation take place?

Replacement tickets - again, what were they exactly and who was the retailer? Single or return? Did you ask if it was possible to excess the original tickets? What route did you take?

If return tickets were involved, was this on your outward or return portion? Are the original tickets wholly unused?

At present, I couldn't begin to advise as there are far too many unknowns!

Thanks for your assistance, the original tickets we're purchased from a Virgin Trains TVM at Manchester Piccadilly on Friday 16th February. They were open returns for use between Manchester and Alfreton. No conversation with any railway employee regarding my journey took place. The outbound portion of my original ticket was used in full, the return not.

The replacement tickets were two singles, Sheffield to Leeds and then Leeds to Manchester. I took this route based on the advice of EMT staff at Sheffield because it was the most direct journey I could take using the railway. I spent a minimal amount of time at Leeds, I didn't take the opportunity to have a trip out! EMT weren't prepared to excess my existing tickets in any way whatsoever and when I requested a refund at the booth they advised me to contact their customer services.

Under section 27 of the NCT you are only allowed 3 pieces of luggage

I wasn't aware of that however five bags could have easily become three by placing the two smallest within the other bags if necessary - they've have fitted with zero effort. I simply was carrying my luggage in such a way to balance the weight as equally as possible - it's important to look after your osteo-health!

To be quite frank YES as you say yourself you understand that the railway does do engineering on Sunday's so you should check in case it is occurring. The automated announcements and the PIS screen here advise passengers to check if travelling at weekends.

We had a blockade here all weekend and RRB numbers were down 40% on the previous Saturday and the number of people I spoke to yesterday that didn't know were counted on one hand. So if Mid Walians can check....

I'm sorry but that is purely anecdotal evidence and I can't believe that fewer than five passengers using the railway during that particular blockade knew of the work taking place beforehand, seems completely unrealistic. To use the same rationale, I overheard well over ten other passengers in Sheffield complaining about using the RRB - means absolutely nothing.

Also the % of travellers who don't check are prepared to travel on the RRB. If you have a special requirement that you can only travel by train it would seem sensible to check.

If I'd wanted to travel by bus, I could've done - that was an option available to me. Indeed if I had my journey would've been cheaper, albeit not have been suitable due to my expensive luggage and the extented journey time. My issue isn't with the railway providing a RRB, its with the fact that those not wanting to use it couldn't take the most direct option by rail as an alternative.

How would you have felt if you were told your luggage had to go onto the guards compartment on the train? I've had to do that a couple of times and it's a regular enough occurrence for East Coast staff to have tags with the destination pre printed.

That's quite an extreme example and I don't think it would've applied in my circumstances because I wasn't particularly overloaded. But had that situation occurred I have either waited until the next train where I wouldn't have needed to or I'd have obliged whilst ensuring that I travelled as close to the guard's compartment as possible during the journey.

Although the risk of theft during the loading/unloading procedure on the RRB was a concern of mine my major issue was the fact some items I was travelling with were relatively fragile and could be damaged during the incredibly undulating road journey between Sheffield and Manchester. The rail journey between these two destinations is far smoother/flatter than the road equivalent and as such the damage risk is reduced significantly.

 

[mailbyrail]

Why does anybody think a bus is an adequate replacement for a train? It isn't. If anybody thinks it is, then why didn't they chose a bus in the first place?
Yes, we all know engineering work makes buses unavoidable but now the replacement bus is the norm whereas when I was involved back in the 70s, planning to run trains was the norm however difficult. Don't try to list the reasons why, the world has moved on and we are where we are. Anybody thinking of travelling by train at the weekend now must check in advance - and check again - and be prepared for a bus journey. Nobody can simply turn up expecting a train journey as Intercity 225 did.
My last weekend journey would have involved a bus journey from Bedford to Leicester taking around 5 hrs door to door on Sunday and around 3 hrs door to door outward on Friday by train. Needless to say, I drove in just over 3 on Friday evening and back in 2.5 on Sunday with several bags.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm sorry but that is purely anecdotal evidence and I can't believe that fewer than five passengers using the railway during that particular blockade knew of the work taking place beforehand, seems completely unrealistic. To use the same rationale, I overheard well over ten other passengers in Sheffield complaining about using the RRB - means absolutely nothing.

No that's what happened as I worked it. We had no trains at all on Friday here due to weather - the number of people turning up expecting a train were very low. Again the vast majority of people seemed to know and planned accordingly.

You've spent more time and effort complaining about it than it would have taken to check before you traveled.

 

[Haywain]

Going back to the original question, now that we know some details of the ticket that was held, I can see no prospect of any refund being issued. This was a return ticket where the outward portion was fully used and the return portion was partly used, and the alternative tickets were purchased by choice. In addition, any delay was self inflicted so I wouldn't see any likelihood of Delay Repay compensation either.

 

[Llanigraham]

No that's what happened as I worked it. We had no trains at all on Friday here due to weather - the number of people turning up expecting a train were very low. Again the vast majority of people seemed to know and planned accordingly.

You've spent more time and effort complaining about it than it would have taken to check before you traveled.

Helped very much by local Facebook groups posting full and correct information about rail and road closures, and by a member of ATW management locally also posting advice.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I would never travel at weekends/public holidays without checking first.