Refurbished Eurostar?

[Strathclyder]

Meanwhile, SNCF has just withdrawn the three full length 373s they snaffled for their domestic services ( 3203/4, 3225/6 and 3227/8 ) and they are already being stored at Vaires, from where they will go for scrap at either Baroncourt or Culoz. The NoL sets are to be withdrawn in December.

Source: Today's Railways Europe issue 227, page 9, which includes a photo of 3203/4 being towed away...

Any particular reason these are being sent to the scrapper?
Seems like a waste to me....

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Any particular reason these are being sent to the scrapper?
Seems like a waste to me....

If them 3 got transferred back to Eurostar, how many extra services could Eurostar run using them?

 

[jon0844]

If they've not been run into the ground, it does seem silly to scrap them. Even if Eurostar didn't want them, they're obviously cleared to use the tunnel so couldn't they even be used by another operator?

 

[starrymarkb]

Any particular reason these are being sent to the scrapper?
Seems like a waste to me....

They are very very complex compared with the TGVs. It was only recently that SNCF adopted AC motors for TGVs (with the DASYE power cars). IIRC SNCF didn't like sending 373s too far from Le Landy as the Provincial depots would have no idea how to work on them so they tended to stay on LGV Nord.

I also understand their tunnel approvals have lapsed so they would be difficult to get reapproved as they don't have Grandfather rights after working away from the tunnel for so long

The NOL sets are owned by Eurostar and presumably they have agreed with the scrapping

 

[Strathclyder]

They are very very complex compared with the TGVs. It was only recently that SNCF adopted AC motors for TGVs (with the DASYE power cars). IIRC SNCF didn't like sending 373s too far from Le Landy as the Provincial depots would have no idea how to work on them so they tended to stay on LGV Nord.

I also understand their tunnel approvals have lapsed so they would be difficult to get reapproved as they don't have Grandfather rights after working away from the tunnel for so long

The NOL sets are owned by Eurostar and presumably they have agreed with the scrapping

Oh, OK.

Would've liked to see the North of London sets back on UK metals, but that obviously ain't gonna happen now.

 

[jon0844]

If the necessary approvals have expired then I guess it changes everything.

Presumably any useful parts will be removed before scrapping, so these train could prove more valuable to Eurostar than having extra trains.

And if means getting more new trains, all the better.

 

[edwin_m]

Isn't the real reason Eurostar are buying new that they want to run to destinations where it would be difficult/impossible for a 373 to go?

 

[starrymarkb]

Isn't the real reason Eurostar are buying new that they want to run to destinations where it would be difficult/impossible for a 373 to go?

That was the original plan. However whatever the UK Border Agency/Force/Office is called this week have been rather uncooperative, hence why some new Eurostar services that are being tried require all passengers to alight with their luggage at Lille, undergo security screening and border formalities and then reboard the train (taking approx 40 mins) - they are unwilling to do the formalities on arrival in the UK using the large passport hall and customs facilities provided at St Pancras (and the other stations on HS1).

So it now looks like the 374s will be mostly working Three Capitals services with the odd excursion to Amsterdam (if the Dutch Gov is to be believed) which may be a Brussels/Amsterdam local with no UK leg.

 

[button_boxer]

they are unwilling to do the formalities on arrival in the UK using the large passport hall and customs facilities provided at St Pancras (and the other stations on HS1).

Since they have to take people off at Lille to get their luggage screened whether they do the border checks there or not, they might as well do it all in one place to save time on arrival. The alternative would be secure platforms and x-ray scanners at all the stations prior to Lille where these services stop, to ensure unscreened luggage doesn't get aboard in the first place.

Or relax the rules requiring luggage to be x-rayed before passing through the tunnel, of course, but what's the likelihood of that happening...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Slight correction to my earlier post... at least one is stored at Wioppy.

As regards the 374s, it looks as if these will dominate the Paris runs while the Bruxelle runs will remain in the hands of 373s; no doubt the fleet of 373s will be slightly reduced when the 374s enter service.

 

[Yew]

Just a thought, but considering our shortage of stock, surely a high performance EMU, that fits our loading guage, could come in useful somewhere on this side of the pond?

 

[ModernRailways]

Just a thought, but considering our shortage of stock, surely a high performance EMU, that fits our loading guage, could come in useful somewhere on this side of the pond?

They barely fit into Kings Cross - in fact they didn't. Running in the UK would require either carriages to be removed (just sure how viable that is) and reworking alongside a possible major refurbishment. As has been mentioned SNCF have likely made full use of them and so they are likely on their last legs anyway and so salvaging parts and scrapping them will likely be the best and most cost effective option.

Just out of curiosity, but roughly how much would it cost to run a Class 373 in the UK? I'd imagine it would be quite a lot and in the long term new, faster trains (like the IEP) will be cheaper.

 

[Olaf]

That was the original plan. However whatever the UK Border Agency/Force/Office is called this week have been rather uncooperative, hence why some new Eurostar services that are being tried require all passengers to alight with their luggage at Lille, undergo security screening and border formalities and then reboard the train (taking approx 40 mins) - they are unwilling to do the formalities on arrival in the UK using the large passport hall and customs facilities provided at St Pancras (and the other stations on HS1).

I think that is because they have to be processed before entering the UK - they will not be processed at the new destinations - same as boarding a flight into the UK.

 

[starrymarkb]

They barely fit into Kings Cross - in fact they didn't.

Also the power draw for a 373 set departing the Cross was such that no other electric trains could be drawing power in the section between KX and Finsbury Park while one departed with risking the OHLE tripping out!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If the ex SNCF 3 class 373s are no longer allowed through the tunnel, could Thalys use them for any of their services?

 

[starrymarkb]

If the ex SNCF 3 class 373s are no longer allowed through the tunnel, could Thalys use them for any of their services?

Unlikely - They don't have Dutch signaling or German Voltages. Plus Thalys often run double sets to Brussels then divide for Amsterdam and Koln

 

[HSTEd]

Just out of curiosity, but roughly how much would it cost to run a Class 373 in the UK? I'd imagine it would be quite a lot and in the long term new, faster trains (like the IEP) will be cheaper.

While the IEP will have distributed traction and Japanese heritage to make it faster off the mark, the 373 is still a true high speed trainset (it even has additional powered bogies under the ends of the trailers) and could be expected to thrash the IEP in accelerating to ~125mph.

I remember the White Rose services and they left the 91s for dead.
Then theres the story about the White Rose driver who called the signaller because he had lost one of his pantographs and had to proceed one power car.

"What's your speed on one power car?"
"Uh.... the book says the limit is 225kph"
".... Carry on Driver"

 

[SpacePhoenix]

While the IEP will have distributed traction and Japanese heritage to make it faster off the mark, the 373 is still a true high speed trainset (it even has additional powered bogies under the ends of the trailers) and could be expected to thrash the IEP in accelerating to ~125mph.

I remember the White Rose services and they left the 91s for dead.
Then theres the story about the White Rose driver who called the signaller because he had lost one of his pantographs and had to proceed one power car.

"What's your speed on one power car?"
"Uh.... the book says the limit is 225kph"
".... Carry on Driver"

Having power cars seems to be "old hat" and on it's way out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotrice_à_grande_vitesse

It seems like even the manufacturer of TGVs (Alstom) is moving towards distributed traction.

 

[HSTEd]

And yet the TGV Duplex continues to outsell the AGV by a rather wide margin........

 

[starrymarkb]

And yet the TGV Duplex continues to outsell the AGV by a rather wide margin........

That might have something to do with SNCF only wanting Duplex (Double Deck) TGVs while the AGV is Single Deck only

 

[po8crg]

Since they have to take people off at Lille to get their luggage screened whether they do the border checks there or not, they might as well do it all in one place to save time on arrival. The alternative would be secure platforms and x-ray scanners at all the stations prior to Lille where these services stop, to ensure unscreened luggage doesn't get aboard in the first place.

The suggestion from NS and DB is that they might be prepared to look at secure platforms and scanners at Amsterdam Centraal, Köln Hauptbahnhof and Frankfurt Hauptbahnhof, but only if UK borders would do juxtaposed controls there also. UK borders are not prepared to set up juxtaposed controls in any new stations, so there's no point in NS or DB doing the work required for security.

 

[Goldfish62]

The suggestion from NS and DB is that they might be prepared to look at secure platforms and scanners at Amsterdam Centraal, Köln Hauptbahnhof and Frankfurt Hauptbahnhof, but only if UK borders would do juxtaposed controls there also. UK borders are not prepared to set up juxtaposed controls in any new stations, so there's no point in NS or DB doing the work required for security.

Putting aside UKBA's intransigence, temporary border controls and security seem to be simple enough to set up at Avignon each Summer.

 

[HSTEd]

That might have something to do with SNCF only wanting Duplex (Double Deck) TGVs while the AGV is Single Deck only

Its not just them.
As far as I know only one company has actually ordered AGVs, and even then only a handful.

Meanwhile Duplex sets are selling to SNCF and the Morrocans.

 

[DownSouth]

So it now looks like the 374s will be mostly working Three Capitals services with the odd excursion to Amsterdam (if the Dutch Gov is to be believed) which may be a Brussels/Amsterdam local with no UK leg.

There is also the possibility of Eurostar running open access services with the more flexible e320 as an open access operator, while the TMST sets stay confined to their current territory.

Brussels-Amsterdam could have the possibility of them using the e320 to basically operate the replacement for the doomed Fyra service which I believe is currently covered by loco-hauled coaches on the classic lines.

That might have something to do with SNCF only wanting Duplex (Double Deck) TGVs while the AGV is Single Deck only

AGV II will have a bilevel version that will replace the TGV 2N2.

 

[Olaf]

The suggestion from NS and DB is that they might be prepared to look at secure platforms and scanners at Amsterdam Centraal, Köln Hauptbahnhof and Frankfurt Hauptbahnhof, but only if UK borders would do juxtaposed controls there also. UK borders are not prepared to set up juxtaposed controls in any new stations, so there's no point in NS or DB doing the work required for security.

I think the UK Government is concerned how effective this would be given the stance of the Belgium authorities on the existing services.

 

[anme]

I think the UK Government is concerned how effective this would be given the stance of the Belgium authorities on the existing services.

Could you explain further? What's the problem with the Belgian authorities ? I'm aware of the "Lille loophole" but I understand that has been successfully closed.

 

[po8crg]

I'd be tempted to go for coupled 200m sets from Frankfurt, splitting at Lille between Paris and London. Its a much nicer solution to the Lille Loophole than the locked-off carriage that Eurostar uses.

 

[cjmillsnun]

They are very very complex compared with the TGVs. It was only recently that SNCF adopted AC motors for TGVs (with the DASYE power cars). IIRC SNCF didn't like sending 373s too far from Le Landy as the Provincial depots would have no idea how to work on them so they tended to stay on LGV Nord.

I also understand their tunnel approvals have lapsed so they would be difficult to get reapproved as they don't have Grandfather rights after working away from the tunnel for so long

The NOL sets are owned by Eurostar and presumably they have agreed with the scrapping

I thought the NOL sets were sold to SNCF.

 

[Olaf]

Could you explain further? What's the problem with the Belgian authorities ? I'm aware of the "Lille loophole" but I understand that has been successfully closed.

The problem still exists; checks are performed at the UK end, but it does not prevent people reaching the UK before being checked.

 

[duncanp]

The "Lille Loophole" was where people with a ticket from Brussels to Lille would get on the Eurostar and then deliberately stay on the train until it reached London.

It has been effectively closed by

(a) Separating London and Lille passengers at Brussels. Passengers for Lille go to a separate check in, bypassing passport checks.
(b) Confining Lille passengers to specified coaches on the train. If you book a ticket from Brussels to Lille, you can only go (I think) in the rear three coaches of the train. Security personnel prevent people from accessing other coaches. (I think something similar happens on the Toronto and Montreal to New York trains)
(c) Conducting a "Controle De Sortie" (Exit ticket check) at Lille. Suppose that 50 people check in for a train from Brussels to Lille, then you would expect 50 people to leave the train at Lille. if only 45 people do so, then there are 5 people on the train who shouldn't be there and if you scan people's tickets on exit at Lille you can identify who those people are.

The last few times I have travelled from Lille to London, there have been no ticket or passport checks at St Pancras.