Refusal of entry with valid ticket

[SarahA59]

Is it really correct that if a ticket won't go through the barrier then that ticket is invalid and station staff don't have to let you through even if its clearly valid on inspection ? I have an annual Gold Card which stopped working the first time I used it at Farringdon and ever since the staff have been letting me through the barrier without hassle. I haven't replaced it as the First Capital website says you can't cash in a season ticket if its a replacement not an original and I need to be able to do this in case of redundancy.

I recently started using City Thameslink instead due to the works at Farringdon and have found a number of the staff there very surly. Tonight has been the worst yet as the ticket barrier guy had go at me for not getting it replaced - I explained about the cash-in problem and he snapped that if it didn't go through the barrier they didn't have to let me through as it wasn't valid and I had to get a replacement.

I have spoken to First Cap customer services who say that I can cash in if replaced because of not going through the barrier rather than being lost or damaged so fine I will do that and hopefully not have to speak to the staff in future - but is it really correct that they don't have to let me through if the barrier won't read the ticket ? Surely that doesn't make a £4000 ticket invalid ? I am not going to be able to replace the ticket for a couple of weeks as I can never get to the ticket office when its open so would be grateful if anyone can clarify for me in case I get the same guy again ! Thanks.

 

[Mintona]

Nah. He is talking bollards. Just coz it doesn't go through the barrier, don't make it invalid. More likely the barrier is knackered.

The barriers aren't that clever, they don't allow for split journeys and stuff like that. I personally wouldn't risk a £4000 ticket through the barrier in case it "swallows" it.

If he was rude to you, take his name and report him to FCC customer relations.

I sound like Yorkie

 

[yorkie]

Is it really correct that if a ticket won't go through the barrier then that ticket is invalid

Nope

and station staff don't have to let you through even if its clearly valid on inspection ?

Certainly not. That's false imprisonment, and I wouldn't stand for that.

I have an annual Gold Card which stopped working the first time I used it at Farringdon and ever since the staff have been letting me through the barrier without hassle. I haven't replaced it as the First Capital website says you can't cash in a season ticket if its a replacement not an original and I need to be able to do this in case of redundancy.

Hmm that sounds like a paradox. Have you tried asking someone in Customer Relations? I'm not sure about that.

he snapped that if it didn't go through the barrier they didn't have to let me through as it wasn't valid and I had to get a replacement.

A good reply would be "Oh, I didn't realise that, I'll check with Jim Morgan. Can I have your name please?" at that point I suspect they are likely to give in

I have spoken to First Cap customer services who say that I can cash in if replaced because of not going through the barrier rather than being lost or damaged so fine I will do that and hopefully not have to speak to the staff in future

Ah, in that case ignore what I said above as you've done that!

- but is it really correct that they don't have to let me through if the barrier won't read the ticket ? Surely that doesn't make a £4000 ticket invalid ? I am not going to be able to replace the ticket for a couple of weeks as I can never get to the ticket office when its open so would be grateful if anyone can clarify for me in case I get the same guy again ! Thanks.

Of course it doesn't, he is probably badly trained. He's probably never heard of the Routeing Guide either.

I agree with Mintona's advice above

 

[Mintona]

I agree with Mintona's advice above

Just hope this doesn't set a precedent

 

[yorkie]

Just hope this doesn't set a precedent

If you side with the passenger (except when they want £300 compensation on ALRs ) then it will be a regular occurrence

 

[glynn80]

I haven't replaced it as the First Capital website says you can't cash in a season ticket if its a replacement not an original and I need to be able to do this in case of redundancy.

I think you have become confused some where along the way.

The refund "issue" is not with "Replacement" Season Tickets but with "Duplicate"Season Tickets. There is a subtle difference.

Replacement Season Tickets are issued free of charge if the original becomes damaged or will not operate station gates.

Duplicate Season Tickets however, are issued when the original becomes lost or stolen and only on payment of an administration fee (£10.00 or £20.00 depending on which Train Operating Company issued the ticket).

Even if the ticket you held were a Duplicate Season, there are special procedures that have been put in place for persons such as those who have been made redundant. The FRPP (Staff Fares Manual) states the following on the issue:

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage (Condition 36) states that refunds are not usually made on Duplicate Season Tickets. However, Train Companies will consider applications for such refunds:

· where the original Season Ticket is returned to the Train company which issued it within one month of it being notified of the relevant loss; check customer’s Season Ticket record,

· where the holder provides proper evidence of being made redundant (including compulsory transfer to another place of work with the same employer or having to take early retirement) or having become pregnant or having suffered prolonged personal sickness. Refer application to your Retail Manager,

· where the original is reported to the Police as stolen or lost due to being victim of a crime, if the customer has told the Fire Brigade that the ticket was lost in a fire. The customer must provide evidence and you have the right to check the evidence provided. Refer application to your Retail Manager.

If the customer wishes to be treated as a "special case", send their claim to your Customer Services Manager for consideration.

I won't post the specific guidance given to Customer Service Managers but the process does seem to favour the customer in the majority of circumstances when refunding Duplicate Season Tickets.

So the advice to give yourself now, is that you should certainly replace your damaged Season Ticket at any First Capital Connect ticket office and then write a letter of complaint about the barrier staff at City Thameslink as their advice was wholly incorrect and misleading.

 

[Mintona]

If you side with the passenger (except when they want £300 compensation on ALRs ) then it will be a regular occurrence

I always side with the passenger when they are in the right, but I see everything from a staff's viewpoint as well and understand why they do something.

 

[SarahA59]

Thank you all very much. I will get a replacement ticket asap as I agree I hadn't appreciated there was a difference between replacement of a faulty ticket and issue of a duplicate where lost/damaged by passenger. I also feel much more confident that I can deal (politely !) with the guy at the station if I come across him again now I know he can't legitimately deny me access/exit. Thanks again. Sarah

 

[Death]

Just as an aside, although I agree that it's rather late...But given that the problem is presumably with the tickets magnetic strip, wouldn't it be quicker and easier just to have the the mag-strip on the ticket rewritten, insted of going through the hassle of obtaining a replacement?

Moreso - Given that ye are using both Farringdon and City Thameslink on a regular basis - Have ye investigated the possibility of having part or all of thy season ticket stored on an Oyster card insted? I know that wouldn't be valid for bits outside of London, but it would be a much better option for moving around the LT network.

Additionally, Oyster cards use RFID radio technology insted of magnetic tape, and consequently are far less prone to corruption then paper tickets. An added bonus with Oyster is that provided ye don't have a national bus pass or RFID access key stored nearby, ye can present thy wallet/purse to the reader without getting the card out - Oyster readers can "read" through small amounts of fabric and plastic. 8)

 

[yorkie]

Just as an aside, although I agree that it's rather late...But given that the problem is presumably with the tickets magnetic strip, wouldn't it be quicker and easier just to have the the mag-strip on the ticket rewritten, insted of going through the hassle of obtaining a replacement?

I don't think that's possible. Even if it were, it would only work if the data were wiped, it would not work if the magnetic strip was actually damaged.

Magnetic media is such a pain, and tickets are probably one of the few types where it is still used. Usually it's not a problem as most tickets wouldn't be used constantly for a long period! But with seasons it is probably inevitable they'll need replacing!

 

[Death]

I don't think that's possible. Even if it were, it would only work if the data were wiped, it would not work if the magnetic strip was actually damaged.

I suppose so, but in my limited experience of tickets with data failure the main cause is usually exposure to a strong magnetic field of some description.
I use to pee myself with laughter when I and a friend (Who was a sound engineer, and worked around large amp stacks a lot) travelled together as - Despite him having to have his tickets rewritten with alarming regularity - It never once occurred to him that his ticket was being wiped by the speakers that he was working around!

In such cases though - Although the data itself is lost as the magnet will "scramble" the particles on the strip - The magnetic strip is still usable for data storage, and can have the old data written to it again. I do agree with ye that magnetic strips are a bad choice though...In my view, optical codes would've been much better.

Magnetic media is such a pain, and tickets are probably one of the few types where it is still used. Usually it's not a problem as most tickets wouldn't be used constantly for a long period! But with seasons it is probably inevitable they'll need replacing!

Unless thy PC has a NAND flash SSD in it mate, I'd suggest that ye read up on how traditional hard-drives work!

As for magnetic tickets: They aren't the most versatile form of storage and I wouldn't be inclined to use one for storing volatile data of any description. However I keep my old tickets and use them for storing encryption keys and other small data on (Each one about 128 bytes long), and - Although it took quite some doing and rather fine tolerances - I managed to cram about 1.25Mb of data onto one of those using heads from old cassette players on one occasion! 8)

 

[rail-britain]

My First Class 14 day ALR wouldn't go through any automated barriers
It did cause some problems at London Marylebone, the staff member wanted to take it away for inspection but I refused to that and asked that they go and get the person to inspect it while I wait at the barrier
However, the Manager on duty apologised as soon as he saw it

 

[devon_metro]

ALRs are programmed to display seek assistance due to the high value of them.

 

[yorkie]

So people on ALRs have to allow extra time making connections that involve going through barriers so they can be "inspected"?

 

[rail-britain]

I didn't have any problems at automated barriers, even with tight connections
Some times the manual inspection was quicker than the automated barriers
Two examples spring to mind
Edinburgh Waverley, Sunday mornings with 1 minute connection time
London Liverpool Street, Saturday (all four visits)

I eventually realised no matter where I was the barriers would reject the ticket, went straight to the manned gate, flashed the ticket, and was waived through

The only issue I remember was getting out of Glasgow Queen Street on arriving from Fort William
I was one of the first people off
I looked up to see which manual gate was in operation (high level green / red lights) and it was the one directly in front of me
However, when I got to it there were no staff
The staff were at the other gate, but did not have a key
I noticed a delivery was being allowed through the bin gate, asked permission, and went out that way!
No delay to myself (as I was still leaving the station as another passenger who was in front of me and went through the barrier), but others may not have been so lucky!

Even at London Euston flashing my ticket was enough to get me past the staff quicker than those pulling their tickets out and blocking the entrance
One Glasgow departure was called with just 3 minutes to go and still left on time!

I was also intially reluctant to put it in the automated barriers, nothing worse than having a £990 ticket chewed or swallowed up!
For that reason I carried the original credit card copy, receipt, and a photocopy of the ticket, but never needed them

 

[devon_metro]

So people on ALRs have to allow extra time making connections that involve going through barriers so they can be "inspected"?

Most (more than 1 day) rovers do. Along with other tickets (e.g. staff vouchers) are also likely to flag up on the barriers.

 

[Mintona]

I wouldn't risk a £300+ ticket through any barriers to be fair. Always show the person on duty to let me through the gate instead, not worth the hassle of losing it.

 

[glynn80]

Most (more than 1 day) rovers do. Along with other tickets (e.g. staff vouchers) are also likely to flag up on the barriers.

Do you have any source for this information?

 

[devon_metro]

Do you have any source for this information?

No - however from personal experience and word of mouth. Feel free to prove me wrong!

 

[jon0844]

All barriers can be set up to block any type of ticket, so I am not sure there's a national policy - but common sense should see certain tickets blocked.

Blocking YPRC tickets seems to be very effective, followed by child tickets.

I'd be quite happy to see a TOC settings gates to block seasons from time to time - but that would be quite chaotic in peak times. The sensible option would be to do ticket number ranges, to spread the load throughout the year. Managing ticket numbers would also make it easy to block lost/duplicate/stolen tickets - even catching out people who claimed a ticket was destroyed, but was later used (perhaps someone sharing a season with a mate/partner).

I don't know why this feature isn't used. Then again, I don't know why so many people use the crappy gatelines that regularly fail to read the magstrips (even when the ticket is just fine) and open/shut so slowly that one ticket can potentially get 3 people through!

 

[37401]

could be the barrier, many time on the "Tube" my ticket has gone in and came out but the gates dont open, its a real pain

 

[metrocammel]

No - however from personal experience and word of mouth. Feel free to prove me wrong!

I think it's more to do with the coding of the ticket. According to a Northern manager I was talking to (regarding the barriers they have fitted), the tickets use a system linked to the RG, that primarily based on the 'from and to' stations on the ticket, but also taking into account things such as the date, and if the ticket is peak / off peak. According to him, the reason why rovers aren't accepted is primarily due to the more complex coding, in that there isn't a 'from & to' station coded into the ticket.

If your theory about 'high value' tickets not being accepted in barriers was correct, no annual season tickets would go through barriers at all!

 

[Tom C]

Magnetic media is such a pain, and tickets are probably one of the few types where it is still used. Usually it's not a problem as most tickets wouldn't be used constantly for a long period! But with seasons it is probably inevitable they'll need replacing!

It is only recently where OTW & Annual tickets will continueously give an 09 error message on the gate. APTIS issues were far more durable and tended to last a hell of a lot longer than the new TIS issues. The stock used for OTW and especially annual seasons are now no different to any other stock apart from colour but the old APTIS stock were thicker and had a special coating which made the ticket last longer.