Refused boarding by Elizabeth Line with London Terminals ticket at Liverpool Street

[YayTrains]

I've recently started a new job and am making use of the July/August Railcard minimum fare waiver to do a journey on a paper Anytime Day Return ticket as it's cheaper than Oyster at peak times.

I bought it from LNER but Trainline and other ToCs are offering the same ticket/route combination.

The journey is Sydenham to Liverpool Street and the LNER journey planner instructs me to travel LO to Whitechapel then Elizabeth line to Liverpool St.

I have had problems with the ticket at LST several times now with barrier code 13 on entry and exit. Today TfL Elizabeth line staff explicitly refused me entry saying that the London Terminals ticket is not valid for EL gates to Sydenham unless it has a Maltese Cross. My ticket does not have +, but it was sold to me explicitly for this route.

The ticket does open the gates at LST platform 1, so I'm now returning home via a convoluted route involving Hackney Downs/Central to get back on to the East London Line.

Why am I being sold a ticket/journey plan combination that TfL refuse to honour? TfL's own website states that LST *is* a London Terminal station, but cannot be used to travel on the section from there to Paddington (which I'm evidently not trying to do).

Pictures of the journey itinerary and ticket attached here if it helps:

My follow up question - if the ticket is valid how can I actually use it without forcing the barriers or travelling via Hackney?

 

[furlong]

There are a lot of quirks in the programming of EL station barriers. 13 is a code that means there's something that needs checking and might require extra payment, not that the ticket is necessarily invalid. In this case presumably it's to check that you're using EL to/from Whitechapel and not travelling around zone 1. Complain to TfL and ask for some Delay Repay if your unnecessary alternative route took much longer, or treat it as a breach of contract and ask for a higher level of compensation, plus reassurance that it will never happen again or what to do if it does (e.g. who to escalate it to at the station or a letter you can carry to show staff). You could ask for the programming of the gates to be changed but I doubt that request will get very far but it's worth a try.

 

[Watershed]

I think the key point to make here is that as you bought your ticket with an itinerary, you were perfectly entitled to follow that itinerary and the TfL barrier staff had no right to deny you travel.

Unfortunately you probably weren't delayed by 30 minutes and therefore don't have a strict legal claim to any compensation - TfL requires you to be delayed by at least 30 minutes to claim delay compensation.

And whilst you have every right to nevertheless make a complaint to TfL - my experience of their complaints handling is that they are completely inept and worse than most the train companies. Responses are often wildly inaccurate, completely misunderstand what you've said, or simply miss the point.

Ultimately, although the fare you've bought is contractually valid on that route, TfL probably don't intend it to be. They like to pretend that the Elizabeth line magically transforms into a Tube line between Paddington and Abbey Wood and that you therefore need a ticket with Underground validity between those stations - such as a ticket with a Maltese cross, or one that's issued to/from specified Underground Zones.

Therefore TfL won't want a pure "National Rail" ticket to London Terminals to be valid between Whitechapel and Liverpool Street, even though it is valid because their made-up Underground "rule" for the Elizabeth line doesn't change the rules established in the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

The risk is that the more that this happens, or if any complaint were to be escalated sufficiently highly to somebody who knew what they're talking about, the likelihood is simply that this perceived "loophole" will be closed off. It's very unlikely that they'll acquiesce and brief staff to allow you to travel on a reasonably priced fare on a reasonable route like this.

 

[furlong]

Why am I being sold a ticket/journey plan combination that TfL refuse to honour?

Your question to TfL is why is it refusing to honour its contract with you?

My follow up question - if the ticket is valid how can I actually use it without forcing the barriers or travelling via Hackney?

Don't force the barriers - that's an offence and two wrongs don't make a right.

There was a similar problem at King's Cross for a while with TfL refusing London Terminals tickets that were valid to Moorgate.

 

[Roger1973]

Others may will be more expert than I am here, but I didn't know that Liverpool Street was a legitimate 'London Terminal' station from south of the river, but hadn't thought about doing a journey via Whitechapel and Elizabeth Line.

I thought 'London Terminals' only broadly means those terminals on the side of central London you're coming in from, not every 'London Terminal' station (to be honest, the railways don't do themselves any favours here)

From what was once the Southern Region, tickets used to say 'London (SR)' rather than 'London Terminals' which always used to mean Victoria, Charing Cross, Waterloo, London Bridge, Blackfriars and possibly City Thameslink (I think - it used to be Holborn Viaduct but I'm not quite sure how far north up Thameslink you can go now), Cannon Street.

I'm not sure if the question is whether you're being sold an incorrect ticket rather than you're being incorrectly told it's not valid.

 

[YayTrains]

The gateline staff stated routes via Whitechapel were not valid for London Terminals and the ticket was only valid for London Bridge if coming from Sydenham.

They also complained they'd had 5+ weeks of similar complaints but remained adamant that the EL gates were not part of London Terminals at LST, only the main station gates. One person said I'd have to walk to Whitechapel, another said I'd be fined by LO Revenue Protection if I travel on that route at all.

I've complained to TfL and LNER and am waiting to hear back from both, though this doesn't help in the immediate future given the staff's intransigence.

 

[alistairlees]

I don't think your ticket is valid to London Liverpool Street, as interchange at Whitechapel is not permitted with tickets to / from "London Terminals".

This is a snippet of info from the RDG fares advice from March 2022

London Terminals tickets will not be valid via the new line [the Elizabeth line] to London Liverpool Street or London Paddington (apart from Stratford – Liverpool Street via Whitechapel, but not valid for entry or exit at Whitechapel, in line with the current National Rail/Underground interavailability arrangements between Stratford and Liverpool Street;

 

[CyrusWuff]

The issue seems to be that Sydenham has the London Routeing Group as one of its Routeing Points, which essentially bypasses all of the other checking and allows you to use the shortest direct route to your destination, even though Liverpool Street isn't intended to be a valid London terminal for such tickets. The valid set being Blackfriars, Cannon Street, Charing Cross, City Thameslink, London Bridge, Vauxhall, Victoria, Waterloo and Waterloo East as you''d expect from the South.

For a journey to Liverpool Street via Whitechapel, Worldline WebTIS (used by GWR and Transpennine) suggests you'd need a Train-Tube ticket from Sydenham (in Zone 3) to Zone U123 rather than one to London Terminals, but appears to be the only site to offer that instead of one to London Terminals.

 

[alistairlees]

The gateline staff stated routes via Whitechapel were not valid for London Terminals and the ticket was only valid for London Bridge if coming from Sydenham.

I agree with this.

They also complained they'd had 5+ weeks of similar complaints but remained adamant that the EL gates were not part of London Terminals at LST, only the main station gates. One person said I'd have to walk to Whitechapel, another said I'd be fined by LO Revenue Protection if I travel on that route at all.

This ("the EL gates were not part of London Terminals at LST") is total rubbish. If you're coming from (for example) Shenfield or Chelmsford with a London Terminals ticket it's most certaily valid there.

I've complained to TfL and LNER and am waiting to hear back from both, though this doesn't help in the immediate future given the staff's intransigence.

Really LNER should fix this bug.

 

[Watershed]

I don't think your ticket is valid to London Liverpool Street, as interchange at Whitechapel is not permitted with tickets to / from "London Terminals".

This is a snippet of info from the RDG fares advice from March 2022

That, of course, is merely a statement of TfL's intended fares policy. It doesn't in any way change the contractual validity of a ticket, which includes the shortest route to a London Terminal such as (in this case) Liverpool Street.

If they want the validity not to include Liverpool Street then they need to get fares re-routed accordingly (for example, Abbey Wood to Farringdon point to point fares were changed to "via City Thameslink"). They can't just make up their own rules for how fare validity works - or rather, they legally can't, but they're just doing it anyway and nobody is going to stop them.

 

[Haywain]

Really LNER should fix this bug.

It's a problem of Liverpool Street being recognised as a London Terminals station no matter what the origin. I have no idea how Silverrail, which is where the problem really lies, would get round it.

 

[YayTrains]

Really LNER should fix this bug.

You can also buy the same ticket via Trainline and EMR (I can't recall if LNER was a TL TOC, but EMR is so that isn't surprising) as well.

GWR and Avanti seem to be forcing 2x Day singles as a fare, though I'm wondering if they've got the Railcard min fare policy for Jul/Aug incorrect.

 

[janb]

For a journey to Liverpool Street via Whitechapel, Worldline WebTIS (used by GWR and Transpennine) suggests you'd need a Train-Tube ticket from Sydenham (in Zone 3) to Zone U123 rather than one to London Terminals, but appears to be the only site to offer that instead of one to London Terminals.

Yes, this is also what Fujitsu Journey Planner in a ticket office tells me I should sell.

 

[YayTrains]

Yes, this is also what Fujitsu Journey Planner in a ticket office tells me I should sell.

If Fujitsu say so then it must be true XD

They like to pretend that the Elizabeth line magically transforms into a Tube line between Paddington and Abbey Wood

This isn't what they're telling the public on their own website though:

Your journey by Elizabeth line

Find helpful advice and information for your Elizabeth line journey

tfl.gov.uk

Using London Terminals tickets on the Elizabeth line​

The Elizabeth line has two 'London Terminal' stations on its route - London Paddington National Rail station and London Liverpool Street National Rail station.

Tickets for National Rail services to/from London Terminals are not valid on the Elizabeth line between Paddington and Liverpool Street. Customers using these tickets must buy a separate ticket or use pay as you go to travel beyond Paddington (if travelling from the west) or Liverpool Street (if travelling from the east).

 

[MrJeeves]

For a journey to Liverpool Street via Whitechapel, Worldline WebTIS (used by GWR and Transpennine) suggests you'd need a Train-Tube ticket from Sydenham (in Zone 3) to Zone U123 rather than one to London Terminals, but appears to be the only site to offer that instead of one to London Terminals.

That is also what TrainSplit sells, unless you instead go out to Stratford and use interavailability from there to Liverpool Street on the tube (but good luck with that).

 

[Watershed]

This isn't what they're telling the public on their own website though:

The section about Liverpool Street coming from the east assumes you are travelling from Stratford, Shenfield etc. - such tickets are unambiguously valid into Liverpool Street using the Elizabeth line because of the interavailability of National Rail & Underground ticketing/services between Stratford and Liverpool Street.

I think TfL still intends the 'Tube validity required' rule to apply between Liverpool Street and Stratford, it is just that the interavailability 'masks' the issue if you are travelling from Stratford eastwards. From Sydenham there is no interavailability so by TfL's logic you need a Tube ticket to use the Elizabeth line from Whitechapel.

 

[Starmill]

I don't think your ticket is valid to London Liverpool Street, as interchange at Whitechapel is not permitted with tickets to / from "London Terminals".

This is a snippet of info from the RDG fares advice from March 2022

Sounds like a case where public information (the online journey planner, as supported by the TfL website) overrides internal information (as per your quote) to me.

The section about Liverpool Street coming from the east assumes you are travelling from Stratford, Shenfield etc. - such tickets are unambiguously valid into Liverpool Street using the Elizabeth line because of the interavailability of National Rail & Underground ticketing/services between Stratford and Liverpool Street.

I think TfL still intends the 'Tube validity required' rule to apply between Liverpool Street and Stratford, it is just that the interavailability 'masks' the issue if you are travelling from Stratford eastwards. From Sydenham there is no interavailability so by TfL's logic you need a Tube ticket to use the Elizabeth line from Whitechapel.

If that were true the quote in #14 would say "between [London] Paddington and Abbey Wood via [London] Liverpool Street". But it just says "between Paddington and Liverpool Street".

 

[maniacmartin]

This is all very sad but not surprising. When Crossrail was introduced, TfL tried to fudge things and have their cake and eat it when it comes to National Rail ticketting and requesting that booking engines put in hacks instead of using the existing data structures that are available. Of course these hacks are not referenced in the NRCoC or Routeing Guide. TfL could fix this by getting the ticket rerouted in the data such as a new route Not via Whitechapel.

If as CyrusWuff says, London Group is a routeing point for Sydenham and there are no other Routeing Points in between Whitechapel and Liverpool Street on the route that the OP took, then as I understand it, their ticket would be perfectly valid, regardless of whether LNER issued an itinerary.

 

[YayTrains]

TfL could fix this by getting the ticket rerouted in the data such as a new route Not via Whitechapel.

If they did what would the valid route be? TL to Farringdon then EL to LST? XD

Or a convoluted faff involving Hackney Downs and/or Stratford?

 

[i4n]

Ju

The section about Liverpool Street coming from the east assumes you are travelling from Stratford, Shenfield etc. - such tickets are unambiguously valid into Liverpool Street using the Elizabeth line because of the interavailability of National Rail & Underground ticketing/services between Stratford and Liverpool Street.

I think TfL still intends the 'Tube validity required' rule to apply between Liverpool Street and Stratford, it is just that the interavailability 'masks' the issue if you are travelling from Stratford eastwards. From Sydenham there is no interavailability so by TfL's logic you need a Tube ticket to use the Elizabeth line from Whitechapel.

To add to the confusion on this, I have a London Terminal season ticket from the South East coast with the HS1 addition. I can use it to get to Liverpool Street after exiting at Stratford International and walking to Stratford and jumping on the EL there (it was the SE staff that told me about that) as well as going into St Pancras and using Thameslink to get down to Blackfriars as well as all the standard routes into the South East London mainline stations.

 

[Haywain]

If they did what would the valid route be? TL to Farringdon then EL to LST? XD

Or a convoluted faff involving Hackney Downs and/or Stratford?

No, there would not be a valid route for that ticket to Liverpool Street. But there is not intended to be a valid route for it. You should be using a ticket with a destination of Zone U1 London.

I have a London Terminal season ticket from the South East coast with the HS1 addition. I can use it to get to Liverpool Street after exiting at Stratford International and walking to Stratford and jumping on the EL there (it was the SE staff that told me about that)

I don't believe that is intended to be valid.

 

[i4n]

No, there would not be a valid route for that ticket to Liverpool Street. But there is not intended to be a valid route for it. You should be using a ticket with a destination of Zone U1 London.


I don't believe that is intended to be valid.

It's on The Key and works the barriers fine. I'm assuming that as soon as the HS part is added it also includes the stations that would traditionally have been from the East/North East side of London as well as the South East part. Maybe.

 

[Haywain]

It's on The Key and works the barriers fine. I'm assuming that as soon as the HS part is added it also includes the stations that would traditionally have been from the East/North East side of London as well as the South East part. Maybe.

I don't think proves anything about what is intended to be valid, or is actually valid.

 

[CyrusWuff]

It's on The Key and works the barriers fine. I'm assuming that as soon as the HS part is added it also includes the stations that would traditionally have been from the East/North East side of London as well as the South East part. Maybe.

All it proves is that the barriers at Liverpool Street will accept a ticket to London Terminals, which you'd expect them to do.

Very little (if any) geographic checking will have taken place.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I believe the matter has been raised with LNER's suppliers

 

[MrJeeves]

It's on The Key and works the barriers fine.

A London Travelcard on a smartcard will get you through the barriers at St Pancras HS1 and Stratford Intl, but that doesn't make it valid on the train.

 

[Wallsendmag]

By all accounts the LNER problem should be fixed now, it's working as per the original instructions.

 

[yorkie]

I don't think it is quite correct to say it is "fixed"; such tickets are valid at Liverpool Street.

However, from an industry data point of view, you could argue the interpretation of the journey planner it is "fixed", as industry data doesn't support the updated position, as published by TfL last Autumn:

From TRU 147

The opening of the Elizabeth line has also opened up some new journey options and customers from Southeastern now have the option of changing on to the Elizabeth line at Abbey Wood and Liverpool Street is now therefore a valid London Terminal for customers using this route, rather than travelling into Charing Cross or Cannon Street.

Although these London Terminals tickets should work our gates at Liverpool Street, they do not currently work the gates in the new Liverpool Street (Broadgate) ticket hall or at Moorgate, which now provides access to and from the Elizabeth line platforms. However, these tickets are valid for travel to / from Liverpool Street and customers can use these gatelines to gain access to / from the Elizabeth line. This is due to the fact that tickets from these NR stations can only currently be accepted at one LU NLC.

We are currently in discussions with Cubic to try and resolve this issue by adopting a group NLC solution previously used to allow tickets to work the multiple NLCS at Kings Cross LU station.

In other words, the industry data itself is incorrect in terms of not reflecting TfL's admission that London Terminals tickets are valid into London Liverpool from origins south of the river (I.e. not just valid from Stratford eastwards).

Now admittedly that doesn't explicitly state it would apply from Sydenham, but if it applies from Abbey wood via Whitechapel, clearly it should also apply at Sydenham, for travel via Whitechapel.

Liverpool Street is a London Terminal.

Elizabeth Line is a national rail TOC, in the same way that London Overground is.

Does anyone know if the gates now accept tickets from Abbey Wood and nearby stations to London Terminals, as was promised last year?

 

[30907]

I don't think it is quite correct to say it is "fixed"; such tickets are valid at Liverpool Street.

However, from an industry data point of view, you could argue the interpretation of the journey planner it is "fixed", as industry data doesn't support the updated position, as published by TfL last Autumn:

From TRU 147

In other words, the industry data itself is incorrect in terms of not reflecting TfL's admission that London Terminals tickets are valid into London Liverpool St from origins via Abbey Wood.

Corrected. I don't see that TfL have agreed any more than that..
Your logic would extend to routes via Clapham Jn as that's Overground.

 

[yorkie]

Corrected. I don't see that TfL have agreed any more than that..
Your logic would extend to routes via Clapham Jn as that's Overground.

It wouldn't make sense to say it's not permitted south of Whitechapel but is permitted east of Whitechapel.

Corrected. I don't see that TfL have agreed any more than that..
Your logic would extend to routes via Clapham Jn as that's Overground.

Not if the shortest route data was correct (as it used to be, until a few years ago when it was inexplicably changed; but that's another topic!)