Refused boarding

[miami]

It's that time of the month. Virgin ignored my last complaint (dated January 6th)

Today I attempted to get the 1840 from Euston to Manchester tonight on a super off peak return restriction code 9F London to Edinburgh. Platform 3 barriers incorrectly rejected the ticket, however the staff would not allow me through despite my valid ticket.

The train manager claimed that my ticket was not valid for break of journey (it is, but I wasn't attempting to break my journey, I hadn't even started my journey)

This means I'm now needlessly crammed on the 1900, taking up a seat (thank you realtimetrains) that could have gone to someone else.

Any sample letters kicking around? Something like

On 17th February I attempted to board the 1840 Euston to Manchester train on the outbound half of a "Super Off Peak return" London to Edinburgh, dated for outbound travel, with restriction code 9F.

The automatic barriers at platform 3 rejected the ticket, and when queried with the gateline staff they referred to train manager. He claimed that my ticket was not valid for break of journey. I explained I would be travelling via Manchester as allowed by the conditions of carriage, I also pointed out that the ticket is valid for break of journey, however he persisted in refusing me to board, forcing me to take a later train, delaying my entire journey.

Not sure how to finish, but I would like an official piece of paper to wave at them (not that it would do any good as they hold the actual contract - the conditions of carriage - in such contempt)

 

[Paule23]

I'm a little confused, your post refers to travelling 'to' Manchester, your draft letter mentions 'via' Manchester. Can you confirm which is correct? Does it have any bearing on the validity of your ticket? Can you let us know exactly what ticket you had?

 

[najaB]

Can you let us know exactly what ticket you had?

The OP has already told us what ticket they held, it was this one.

 

[bb21]

Keep it concise and to the point.

On 17th February I planned to use the 1840 Euston to Manchester train on the outbound half of a "Super Off Peak return" London to Edinburgh, with restriction code 9F, priced at £xx.xx (with xxx Railcard).

The automatic barriers at platform 3 rejected the ticket, and I was referred to the train manager, xxx, by barrier staff. He claimed that my ticket was not valid for break of journey. I explained I would be travelling via Manchester as allowed by the Routeing Guide. I also pointed out that the ticket is valid for break of journey, however he persisted in refusing me to board, forcing me to take a later train, delaying my entire journey.

You may wish to ask for written confirmation of the fare's validity via Manchester, and expect that relevant staff would be correctly briefed.

 

[najaB]

You may wish to ask for written confirmation of the fare's validity via Manchester, and expect that relevant staff would be correctly briefed.

Not to mention claiming for Delay Repay if you are so inclined.

 

[miami]

I'm a little confused, your post refers to travelling 'to' Manchester, your draft letter mentions 'via' Manchester. Can you confirm which is correct? Does it have any bearing on the validity of your ticket? Can you let us know exactly what ticket you had?

The train runs to Manchester (and stops). My journey is via Manchester. The first leg of my journey is London through Stoke and beyond, to Macclesfield or Stockport (haven't decided yet), and I'll be able to resume my journey (or not) within the validity of the ticket.

The ticket is valid for BOJ (as indeed is a return to Lancaster as I confirmed today yet again that thetrainline do not clearly advise of break of journey restrictions at the time of sale that are mentioned in the code, but I digress)

(Eagle eyed viewers will notice I've posted about this particular route before, although sometimes it's to Haymarket, same validity code)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not to mention claiming for Delay Repay if you are so inclined.

I doubt I'll hit a 30 minute delay on this leg

 

[najaB]

I doubt I'll hit a 30 minute delay on this leg.

D'oh, my bad. I mis-read your post and thought it was more than 20 minutes between trains.

 

[furlong]

That appears to be a claim for breach of contract that should be copied to the ORR for investigation under the consumer regulations - an institutional lack of professional diligence leading to people potentially buying more expensive tickets than necessary?

 

[Polarbear]

Perfectly valid of course for that journey. However, having looked at the restrictions for code 9F, the list starts with London Terminals, citing no validity prior to 18:59. Further down the list, the restrictions specific to Euston are shown.

I know that conductors have a difficult task with the complex ticketing system we're blessed with, but in my job, if a customer was insisting they were correct, I'd at least attempt to check to make certain.

 

[furlong]

You could also report it to the DfT as a straightforward breach of the franchise agreement along these lines:

From the TSA:

10-1 THE OBLIGATION OF THE OPERATORS TO CARRY PASSENGERS
(1) Fares in respect of which the Operators are bound
An Operator is bound to carry on its trains each Purchaser of a Fare, in accordance with its terms, for the whole or any part of the journey for which the Fare entitles him to use those trains.

and from an East Midlands Trains breach notice:

Failure by the Franchisee to abide by the obligations of the TSA is a breach of the Franchise Agreement.

 

[feline1]

Genuine question (although ludicrous scenario): if one finds oneself in a situation like this, where you know you clearly have a right to board, but rail staff are refusing, can you telephone British Transport Police?
(Well, I mean, I know you *can* telephone them...) but what would happen? I presume that, technically, rail staff are breaking the law by refusing to board?
(Doubtless, if you tried to push past them and board the train, *they* would call BTP...)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perfectly valid of course for that journey. However, having looked at the restrictions for code 9F, the list starts with London Terminals, citing no validity prior to 18:59. Further down the list, the restrictions specific to Euston are shown.

I know that conductors have a difficult task with the complex ticketing system we're blessed with, but in my job, if a customer was insisting they were correct, I'd at least attempt to check to make certain.

This sounds just like the Paddington nonsense beloved of another poster. Complain, complain, complain.

 

[bb21]

Genuine question (although ludicrous scenario): if one finds oneself in a situation like this, where you know you clearly have a right to board, but rail staff are refusing, can you telephone British Transport Police?
(Well, I mean, I know you *can* telephone them...) but what would happen? I presume that, technically, rail staff are breaking the law by refusing to board?
(Doubtless, if you tried to push past them and board the train, *they* would call BTP...)

Railway is private property, so harsh as it may be, the BTP officer will very unlikely order railway staff to allow you to travel in the case of a ticketing dispute under normal circumstances.

 

[CheesyChips]

Genuine question (although ludicrous scenario): if one finds oneself in a situation like this, where you know you clearly have a right to board, but rail staff are refusing, can you telephone British Transport Police?
(Well, I mean, I know you *can* telephone them...) but what would happen? I presume that, technically, rail staff are breaking the law by refusing to board?
(Doubtless, if you tried to push past them and board the train, *they* would call BTP...)

This would be a civil matter I believe so the police wouldn't respond. However, if you're already on the train with a valid ticket that they dispute isn't, BTP will be there in a flash!

 

[yorkie]

Genuine question (although ludicrous scenario): if one finds oneself in a situation like this, where you know you clearly have a right to board, but rail staff are refusing, can you telephone British Transport Police?
(Well, I mean, I know you *can* telephone them...) but what would happen? I presume that, technically, rail staff are breaking the law by refusing to board?
(Doubtless, if you tried to push past them and board the train, *they* would call BTP...)

A better approach is to follow staff instructions and report the franchise breach to the DfT, and the consumer law breach to the ORR.

If it was a one-off I'd say leave it, but Virgin have a history of this, so this evidence should be submitted to the DfT/ORR who really need to clamp down on it.

 

[miami]

Thanks for the notes, I'll formulate a submission tomorrow

Genuine question (although ludicrous scenario): if one finds oneself in a situation like this, where you know you clearly have a right to board, but rail staff are refusing, can you telephone British Transport Police?
(Well, I mean, I know you *can* telephone them...) but what would happen? I presume that, technically, rail staff are breaking the law by refusing to board?
(Doubtless, if you tried to push past them and board the train, *they* would call BTP...)

Byelaw 9.2 for starts:

Where the entrance to or exit from any platform or station is via a manned or
an automatic ticket barrier no person shall enter or leave the station, except
with permission from an authorised person, without passing through the
barrier in the correct manner.

If they want to breach a contract that's one thing, however if you jump the barrier you're still guilty even with a valid ticket.

If it were the other way round (preventing you from leaving) that would be a different manner.

 

[furlong]

If it was a one-off I'd say leave it, but Virgin have a history of this

that goes back many years - remember Virgin Strains.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If it was a one-off I'd say leave it, but Virgin have a history of this, so this evidence should be submitted to the DfT/ORR who really need to clamp down on it.

Yeah, but we all know Satan will be riding to work on a skidoo long before that ever happens. Virgin management don't care about anything other than the stack of red notes in their back pocket, Virgin staff take their lead from their managers, and DfT mandarins don't care because the Blessed Brian is so right he gets to have a monopoly on all London-Scotland trains.

We know there's nothing a passenger can do in this situation and, crucially, they know there's nothing that a passenger can do.

 

[bnm]

This sounds just like the Paddington nonsense beloved of another poster. Complain, complain, complain.

I'd challenge the word 'beloved'.

Who would have thought that another London Terminal's staff could be as incompetent as Paddington's?

Echo NW. Keep complaining and escalating as necessary.

Which reminds me, I must update my Paddington topic with the correspondence between my MP and GWR's MD. I'll do so when home later.

 

[miami]

I submitted a complaint, I suspect it will go nowhere.

How does one report a franchise breach?

 

[gray1404]

Make sure you follow up your first complaint, the one they ignored. Perhaps you could take it to transport focus if they are ignoring it.

 

[miami]

Make sure you follow up your first complaint, the one they ignored. Perhaps you could take it to transport focus if they are ignoring it.

The first complaint I sent asked them to ensure that my Ufn was cancelled. It was cancelled in a couple of hours, which I think is too much of a coincidence, but with a cancelled Ufn there's technically nothing for them to answer.

The auto-acknowlegement on the first one took about 2 weeks. This one came within a day)

 

[gray1404]

I still would have thought they would have written to you to explain their error, what action they've taken and offer compensation. You were badly treated, misinformed, experienced dreadful service and put under a lot of stress on the day you received the UPFN. This is despite the fact you held a valid ticket. You presented the staff with the facts but they refused to reason. You were also faced with the administrative burden afterwards of having to appeal/complain, which costs time and money.

 

[suzanneparis]

What would happen in a hypothetical case when the refusal to let you on a train with a valid ticket resulted in you missing a last connection to a station much further away? Would they be liable for the cost of either a taxi or a hotel?

 

[najaB]

What would happen in a hypothetical case when the refusal to let you on a train with a valid ticket resulted in you missing a last connection to a station much further away? Would they be liable for the cost of either a taxi or a hotel?

As long as you were at the station in time to catch a train that would have made the connection, I say yes.

 

[miami]

As long as you were at the station in time to catch a train that would have made the connection, I say yes.

The reality would be you'd have to pay for your own taxi (assuming this isn't a silly example like Altnabreac), and beg to get the money back, and your begging letter would be ignored for weeks on end.

 

[gray1404]

The reality would be you'd have to pay for your own taxi (assuming this isn't a silly example like Altnabreac), and beg to get the money back, and your begging letter would be ignored for weeks on end.

Unless you paid for your ticket (as part of a transaction i.e. can include other tickets or services, over £100) using a credit card. Then you could claim for consequential loss under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act from your credit card company, who is jointly liable.

paulweaver How are you getting on with your 2 outstanding complaints to Virgin? (the first being the UPFN which I know was cancelled but I believe you did complain to Virgin about what happened too. The second being this case here relating to the refused boarding). Have they replied to either of these yet or have to refereed either to Transport Focus (or indeed London Travel Watch - who I believe may be more effective - as both relate to travel via London and both the incidents happened at Euston).

 

[yorkie]

What would happen in a hypothetical case when the refusal to let you on a train with a valid ticket resulted in you missing a last connection to a station much further away? Would they be liable for the cost of either a taxi or a hotel?

They would, absolutely, be liable.

 

[miami]

No response to either complaint.

 

[gray1404]

Transport Focus time I think.