Refused Delay Repay by TransPennine Express

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185143

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I travelled from Manchester Airport to Orrell on the 7th May. I intended to board the 15:00 TPE service to Wigan and change there. Unfortunately, this train was cancelled as there were no crew for it (same old...).

As I was delayed by 61 minutes I claimed Delay Repay.

I recieved an email yesterday acknowledging my delay but refusing 'compensation' as I was using a GM CountyCard. It stated that the passenger charter said that compensation was not available to season ticket holders as they are already heavily discounted.
The old passenger charter did indeed say this, but the new charter says the exact opposite and even outlines compensation amounts!

I have replied to the email seeking clarification. Is this worth pursuing if they refuse again?

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aformeruser

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From TPE passenger's charter:

When you have been delayed for 30 minutes or more arriving at your
destination station, you are entitled to claim Delay Repay. The level of
compensation that you are due is explained below:
• 30 to 59 minutes delay: Compensation of 50% of your single ticket or
50% of the relevant portion1 of your return ticket.
• 60 to 119 minutes delay: Compensation of 100% of the cost of your
single ticket or 100% of the cost of the relevant portion of your
return ticket.
• More than 120 minutes delay: Compensation of 100% of the cost of
your single ticket or 100% cost of your return ticket.

....

Delay Repay for Season Ticket holders works in the same way as described in
the Delay Repay section opposite, however compensation is calculated using
the proportional cost of the daily single ticket. This is calculated as follows:
• Weekly ticket cost divided by 10;
• Monthly ticket cost divided by 40;
• Quarterly ticket cost divided by 120; and
• Annual ticket cost divided by 464.


I'd reply quoting the new passenger's charter (stressing the word new) and say under that it states I'm entitled to compensation equaling 111/40 or £2.78.
 

185143

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From TPE passenger's charter:

When you have been delayed for 30 minutes or more arriving at your
destination station, you are entitled to claim Delay Repay. The level of
compensation that you are due is explained below:
• 30 to 59 minutes delay: Compensation of 50% of your single ticket or
50% of the relevant portion1 of your return ticket.
• 60 to 119 minutes delay: Compensation of 100% of the cost of your
single ticket or 100% of the cost of the relevant portion of your
return ticket.
• More than 120 minutes delay: Compensation of 100% of the cost of
your single ticket or 100% cost of your return ticket.

....

Delay Repay for Season Ticket holders works in the same way as described in
the Delay Repay section opposite, however compensation is calculated using
the proportional cost of the daily single ticket. This is calculated as follows:
• Weekly ticket cost divided by 10;
• Monthly ticket cost divided by 40;
• Quarterly ticket cost divided by 120; and
• Annual ticket cost divided by 464.


I'd reply quoting the new passenger's charter (stressing the word new) and say under that it states I'm entitled to compensation equaling 111/40 or £2.78.
As I thought. I replied with a screenshot of that page from the new charter and asked for clarification on wether they are correct or I am.

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185143

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For 19(c) purposes PTE seasons are not counted as "season tickets" - might this be the case for the CountyCard?

How does it work for Rovers?
For 19c purposes, yes it is.

Even old TPE compensated for rovers. Other TOCs (EMT, FGW, LM, Old Northern, and XC) have compensated me on rovers and rangers. (VT have too but im not counting them as they love throwing money around.)


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Solent&Wessex

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When did you buy your ticket? Delay Repay only applies to season tickets purchased after the start of the new franchise. The old rules apply to those season tickets that were purchased before the new franchise started?

Assuming it was purchased after the new franchise I would er to agree that some level of compensation is due. I think the fact that it is a PTE ticket is somewhat irrelevant. It is still a ticket to travel and there is nothing in print I can see which says PTE tickets are exempt.

The question would be what level of compensation is due.? A CountyCard is a multi-modal ticket so I would argue that the compensation level isn't due on the full ticket amount. I would argue that the rail element could be considered to be whatever the equivalent period Traincard costs, and that any compensation is based on that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's not a railway product, it's a PTE specific network card. Unfortunately it's not covered.

Where is this stated?
 

185143

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When did you buy your ticket? Delay Repay only applies to season tickets purchased after the start of the new franchise. The old rules apply to those season tickets that were purchased before the new franchise started?

Assuming it was purchased after the new franchise I would er to agree that some level of compensation is due. I think the fact that it is a PTE ticket is somewhat irrelevant. It is still a ticket to travel and there is nothing in print I can see which says PTE tickets are exempt.

The question would be what level of compensation is due.? A CountyCard is a multi-modal ticket so I would argue that the compensation level isn't due on the full ticket amount. I would argue that the rail element could be considered to be whatever the equivalent period Traincard costs, and that any compensation is based on that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Where is this stated?

It was a monthly purchased on the 7th May, so the old rules should not be being applied.
 

thealexweb

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It's not a railway product, it's a PTE specific network card. Unfortunately it's not covered.

The TOC has chosen to accept the ticket and are therefore accepting the revenue it yields. I am doubtful whether TOCs can simply look at ticket types and pick and choose what risk and rewards they wish to have.
 

thealexweb

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I'm not entirely convinced that the TOC had any choice in the matter.

TOCs can opt in and out of PTE products. For example, Arriva Trains Wales has chosen to not accept GM rovers between Manchester Airport / Manchester Piccadilly and Oxford Road and Stockport.
 

najaB

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TOCs can opt in and out of PTE products. For example, Arriva Trains Wales has chosen to not accept GM rovers between Manchester Airport / Manchester Piccadilly and Oxford Road and Stockport.
I know that, in theory at least, they can do so. I'm not convinced that TPE had any real choice in the matter though.
 

221129

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Are these tickets subject to the NRCoC? If so then surely TPE can't argue that they don't have to pay out?
 

185143

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TOCs can opt in and out of PTE products. For example, Arriva Trains Wales has chosen to not accept GM rovers between Manchester Airport / Manchester Piccadilly and Oxford Road and Stockport.
Is that the case? If so im in trouble as I'm sat on one right now!
 

Elecman

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How can TOCs have that choice? The ticket is either valid for all trains as its not a TOC specific ticket?
 

yorksrob

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As usual those of us in the provinces are not deemed worthy of the level of service and protection enjoyed in the capital.

To be honest, it's about time pte metrocards were afforded the same rights as holders of equivalent National rail products. Government should just impose it and tell the TOC's to get on with it.
 

swt_passenger

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Ok.. so is a London Travelcard a National Rail product? Because l have certainly claimed Delay Repay on one...

Yes it is. There is a long standing ATOC/TfL 'Travelcard Agreement' in place since at least 1995. NR CofC apply.
 

Elecman

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I looked at TfGM's site which says *all trains* in the GM area.

Are you sure that is not a mistake?

Perhaps ATW haven't updated thier involvement with the very short notice of running to the airport and the item is actually valid?
 

Ianigsy

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Yes it is. There is a long standing ATOC/TfL 'Travelcard Agreement' in place since at least 1995. NR CofC apply.

I think the difference is that the Travelcard (and Capitalcard before it) were driven by the rail industry as part of NSE getting its act together, and were something that the Underground, London Buses, DLR etc opted into to make it worthwhile. To a large extent the PTE products in the north of England are money for old rope to the long distance operators, as the seats taken up between Stockport and Manchester, or Wakefield and Leeds, are ones which are vacated by passengers on standard tickets as the train approaches its terminus.
 

jkdd77

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Didn't look too hard then.

ATW isn't listed in the participating operators:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pr93c0eaeb9d4653b48ac9b0307154fb.aspx

The question of whether TOCs are obliged, by the NRCoC and by their franchise agreements, to accept interavailable Rovers/ Rangers/ PTE products has been extensively discussed in past threads, without a clear consensus being reached.

I don't think that the absence of ATW from the supposed listing of operators on the NRE website would be viewed as definitive, or even as persuasive, by a court in determining validity, particularly given that the information would likely not have been seen by an average customer before or at the time the contract was formed, and given just how out of date much of the information is on that broader section of the NRE website (e.g. referring to "Cheap Day Returns" in the context of Ranger/ Rover validity).

A reasonable passenger might well conclude that the omission of ATW is an accidental oversight, rather than a definitive contractual bar on their use on ATW trains. This is all the more so since TfGM's website clearly states that the Traincard is valid on *all* trains within the designated area.
 
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reb0118

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I have a feeling that the SPT (Strathclyde Passenger Transport) Zonecards are not covered by delay repay or previous to that the compensation arrangements for "normal" seasons due to them being multi operator tickets.

So it appears that it is not just in the Greater Manchester conurbation. I'll ask what the current situation is, however.

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I have asked the policy for SPT products and have just received the answer that passengers holding such tickets and experiencing delay/cancellation have to contact SPT direct.

Would this be the same for TfGM? Have you contacted them direct?

Just a thought: but whilst I realise that the TOC who retails these PTE products does so as an agent, and generally agents are not liable for the failures of the carriers, but what if the agent and the carrier are one and the same?

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crehld

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The question of whether TOCs are obliged, by the NRCoC and by their franchise agreements, to accept interavailable Rovers/ Rangers/ PTE products has been extensively discussed in past threads, without a clear consensus being reached.

I don't think that the absence of ATW from the supposed listing of operators on the NRE website would be viewed as definitive, or even as persuasive, by a court in determining validity, particularly given that the information would likely not have been seen by an average customer before or at the time the contract was formed, and given just how out of date much of the information is on that broader section of the NRE website (e.g. referring to "Cheap Day Returns" in the context of Ranger/ Rover validity).

A reasonable passenger might well conclude that the omission of ATW is an accidental oversight, rather than a definitive contractual bar on their use on ATW trains. This is all the more so since TfGM's website clearly states that the Traincard is valid on *all* trains within the designated area.

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage are incredibly clear on this matter. A ticket can only be restricted by operator(s) if such a restriction is marked on the ticket itself (see condition 10). Unless things have changed very recently, all GM rail tickets (Wayfarer, GM Rail Rover, Traincards) do not include such a restriction.

And if we take the argument that the GM Traincard is solely a PTE product which is subject to PTE conditions, and those PTE conditions alone, then the fact it is advertised by that same PTE as being available on all train services means I again see nothing to indicate that it is restricted by a particular operator.

As for the list of participating operators on the NRE rovers and rangers pages: these are frequently incorrect, and are best ignored.
 
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