Regional Eurostar - what was the station plans?

[popeter45]

thinking about the old plans for 373's to run Regional Eurostar to Europe as well as Nightstar

i assume they would need the same juxtaposed control and security checks so what was the plans for each station on the planned routes?, extra dedicated platforms,dual use platforms, checks on the trains?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

think about the old plans for 373's to run Regional Eurostar to Europe as well as Nightstar

i assume they would need the same juxtaposed control and security checks so what was the plans for each station on the planned routes?, extra dedicated platforms,dual use platforms, checks on the trains?

I think Doncaster planned a Platform 9 and 10.

 

[randyrippley]

Thats always been a grey area up here. Some of the services - presumably Nightstars - were intended to stop at Lancaster, using platform 3 in both directions - it was the only one long enough. That in itself would have caused problems with logistics, but the local grapevine seemed to think that removeable security barriers / pens would be built on part of the platform - presumably with SDO.
The local press stated one week that some work on the platform - presumably clearance work - had been completed, but I never saw it or met anyone who did, or knew what was supposedly done. It all had the aura of wishful thinking

 

[WesternLancer]

thinking about the old plans for 373's to run Regional Eurostar to Europe as well as Nightstar

i assume they would need the same juxtaposed control and security checks so what was the plans for each station on the planned routes?, extra dedicated platforms,dual use platforms, checks on the trains?

wasn't the world all very different - in the period when Irish based terror activity had declined/ended and before 9/11 I tend to think that the security issue was not considered that significant. There was also not the trends in population movement that have led to the illegal migration attempts that have also been part of the tunnel landscape.
Was it the case that significant security requirements were considered necessary for the regional trains?

 

[30907]

wasn't the world all very different - in the period when Irish based terror activity had declined/ended and before 9/11 I tend to think that the security issue was not considered that significant. There was also not the trends in population movement that have led to the illegal migration attempts that have also been part of the tunnel landscape.
Was it the case that significant security requirements were considered necessary for the regional trains?

While the nature of the security precautions has changed (and IRA terrorism was in view when things were planned), they were built in from the start at the termini.
I can't imagine HMG allowing a significant (multiple) loophole - though I wonder how they would have done it.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I can't imagine HMG allowing a significant (multiple) loophole - though I wonder how they would have done it.

There was some row between HM Customs and Eurotunnel which scuppered it, but one might imagine the same system as in pre Schengen continental Europe, namely Officers travelling on the trains to check Passports etc. If say the last stop in England was Kensington Olympia or Ashford, they board there and go through the train before its first stop in France.

 

[CW2]

The whole premise of running regional Eurostars and through sleepers was flawed, not helped by some very dodgy demand modelling that was done in the first place. As told to me many years after the event: Demand modelling was undertaken to establish where the North of London (NoL) sets and Sleepers should run from, if at all. The original questioning was somewhat loose, such that the "market" was considered to be anybody who had ever shown any inclination to leave Great Britain by any means in any direction. So (for example) if you lived in South Yorkshire and flew to Benidorm once a year, you were counted as a potential Eurostar / night sleeper customer. Likewise there was a very strong demand at Plymouth for journeys to the Continent, so a portion of the sleepers was planned to start from there. Ferries to Santander and Roscoff played a part in the statistics, plus Navy personnel.
There's a strong feeling that it should make sense to run North of London Eurostar services, but London is actually the problem. As a city, it's amongst the biggest in Europe, and has pretty much everything on offer (apart from guaranteed sunny beaches). Passengers on a NoL train have to make the deliberate choice to avoid the obvious easy destination and go somewhere further away which may be more expensive and offer less.
Wearing my cranking hat, I'd love there to be through Eurostars to points north, but I can't see it happening any time soon.

 

[Ianno87]

Passengers on a NoL train have to make the deliberate choice to avoid the obvious easy destination and go somewhere further away which may be more expensive and offer less.
Wearing my cranking hat, I'd love there to be through Eurostars to points north, but I can't see it happening any time soon.

I'd say passengers on a North of London train would have to make a deliberate choice to travel on a handful of very specifically-timed through trains once or twice per day, when going via London (or flying) offers a far, far greater range of departure times and fare choices.

 

[WesternLancer]

I'd say passengers on a North of London train would have to make a deliberate choice to travel on a handful of very specifically-timed through trains once or twice per day, when going via London (or flying) offers a far, far greater range of departure times and fare choices.

But this would have been common to most international train journeys over longer distances right across Europe in many ways at the time - the decisions were taken in a very different airline context which was (for the UK) I would suggest either charter flights to holiday resort locations - but not business orientated destinations - or business flights at high ticket cost to business destinations. Paris would have been one of the few destinations that had both a business and tourist market come to think of it - but probably not a charter flight market although I don't know.

It's decision making based on the knowledge from the past, all too common a thing - not based on a crystal ball about what air deregulation would create in terms of a very different model of flight options, times, destinations or costs - with a dose of political stuff in the mix to help re-assure MPs in the regions that there voters would get something out of the tax payments they would be making towards the project. Then because it is taxpayer funded it needs some modelling to justify it so you make something up as best you can.

It's the opposite of the entrepreneurial model where you don't really model it - you go on an idea that you can create a market by flying planes cheaply to under used airports in the middle of nowhere with a wholly different product offer and see how you get on, and aggressively promote that model. If it works you win.

Looking back from today it's hard to imagine NoL eurostar ever being a good commercial idea - but if you go back to the 1980s/90s railway you would say 'there are long distance pan European trains all over the continent both day and night so we need to be part of that network as this is how lots of people travel'.

 

[Ianno87]

But this would have been common to most international train journeys over longer distances right across Europe in many ways at the time - the decisions were taken in a very different airline context which was (for the UK) I would suggest either charter flights to holiday resort locations - but not business orientated destinations - or business flights at high ticket cost to business destinations. Paris would have been one of the few destinations that had both a business and tourist market come to think of it - but probably not a charter flight market although I don't know.

It's decision making based on the knowledge from the past, all too common a thing - not based on a crystal ball about what air deregulation would create in terms of a very different model of flight options, times, destinations or costs - with a dose of political stuff in the mix to help re-assure MPs in the regions that there voters would get something out of the tax payments they would be making towards the project. Then because it is taxpayer funded it needs some modelling to justify it so you make something up as best you can.

It's the opposite of the entrepreneurial model where you don't really model it - you go on an idea that you can create a market by flying planes cheaply to under used airports in the middle of nowhere with a wholly different product offer and see how you get on, and aggressively promote that model. If it works you win.

Looking back from today it's hard to imagine NoL eurostar ever being a good commercial idea - but if you go back to the 1980s/90s railway you would say 'there are long distance pan European trains all over the continent both day and night so we need to be part of that network as this is how lots of people travel'.

NoL Eurostar basically came at the wrong time. 10-15 years earlier with a perhaps less commercially-minded BR and it may have been different.

 

[WesternLancer]

NoL Eurostar basically came at the wrong time. 10-15 years earlier with a perhaps less commercially-minded BR and it may have been different.

I very much agree with that point Ian - things would have been very different then I think. For example I was talking to a friend not so long ago and he was telling me how in the early 80s he and other football fans used to go to European matches by train over very long distances, and he regarded this as common and the only realistic choice of travel. Flying simply not considered an option at that time in his view.
And this was at a time when the main city station had a continental travel desk in the station travel centre - you just walked in and booked a ticket to wherever in europe not greatly different than a train ticket to London (something you could also quite easily do at many high street travel agents too).

 

[popeter45]

NoL Eurostar basically came at the wrong time. 10-15 years earlier with a perhaps less commercially-minded BR and it may have been different.

i Hope one day It becomes financially with encouragement to shift short Haul travel away from Planes but i feel the odds are slim at best

 

[Bald Rick]

From knowing people around at the time... the NoL proposals were only approved simply as a way of getting the Channel Tunnel Bill through Parliament. BR knew, as did the ‘Department’ and the Treasury, that there was no commercial case. This was at a time when everything on the railway was being cut to the bone. But the prospect of connecting Manchester, Yorkshire, even Wolverhampton to Paris was a very sweet carrot to dangle in front of various MPs who needed to vote on the tunnel to pass the bill, completion of which was of course a key objective of the Thatcher Government. (They, and she, wanted to demonstrate that large infrastructure projects could be funded and delivered privately, and it was key to the pro-european policy of the time, and of course it would be a monumental achievement for the country, and Thatcher herself).

 

[Bald Rick]

i Hope one day It becomes financially with encouragement to shift short Haul travel away from Planes but i feel the odds are slim at best

There’s short haul and short haul. We’ve done this to death on other threads, but the flows from the U.K.
Regions to Europe that could justify a through train service are essentially nil.

 

[WesternLancer]

i Hope one day It becomes financially with encouragement to shift short Haul travel away from Planes but i feel the odds are slim at best

Interesting to speculate but if the short haul fliers can't persuade people to get back on the planes then the game will change massively (but I think they will be able to persuade people, if only once....)

 

[Journeyman]

Wasn't there a Eurostar lounge built at Crewe? Did anyone ever photograph it?

 

[MotCO]

From knowing people around at the time... the NoL proposals were only approved simply as a way of getting the Channel Tunnel Bill through Parliament. BR knew, as did the ‘Department’ and the Treasury, that there was no commercial case. This was at a time when everything on the railway was being cut to the bone. But the prospect of connecting Manchester, Yorkshire, even Wolverhampton to Paris was a very sweet carrot to dangle in front of various MPs who needed to vote on the tunnel to pass the bill, completion of which was of course a key objective of the Thatcher Government. (They, and she, wanted to demonstrate that large infrastructure projects could be funded and delivered privately, and it was key to the pro-european policy of the time, and of course it would be a monumental achievement for the country, and Thatcher herself).

That sounds entirely plausible. God (and politicians) work in mysterious ways!

 

[CW2]

Wasn't there a Eurostar lounge built at Crewe? Did anyone ever photograph it?

Yes, under the stairs on P5. It's been relabelled / repurposed since.

 

[Bald Rick]

To answer the original question, the original proposal IIRC was for all security, border control and customs checks to be conducted on the train. I don’t think there were no plans for such facilities at the stations, although there were of course going to be special lounges etc.

 

[Journeyman]

Yes, under the stairs on P5. It's been relabelled / repurposed since.

Aha! I'll go and have a look next time I'm there. What is it now?

 

[CW2]

From memory it's now a general waiting room. Obviously it's been a while since I visited the station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thats always been a grey area up here. Some of the services - presumably Nightstars - were intended to stop at Lancaster, using platform 3 in both directions - it was the only one long enough. That in itself would have caused problems with logistics, but the local grapevine seemed to think that removeable security barriers / pens would be built on part of the platform - presumably with SDO.
The local press stated one week that some work on the platform - presumably clearance work - had been completed, but I never saw it or met anyone who did, or knew what was supposedly done. It all had the aura of wishful thinking

I think the platform work for Regional Eurostar, which was done at a number of WCML stations, was purely to cut them back a bit so the 374s didn't whack the coping stones off.

With regard to Lancaster there is a small "open area" at the ends of platforms 1 and 2 (the north facing bays), it presently has bike racks in it but I have long wondered what its original purpose was. It could well have been used for this sort of purpose if it came for it.

With regard to bi-di use of 3, back then there were far fewer trains through Lancaster, but even with the present service I've seen 4 used bi-di when a Pendolino failed in platform 3 (the issue being a loose windscreen wiper, which was fixed, entertainingly, using a hacksaw and a bit of brute force to cut it off, after which it was thrown in the van area with some disgust). It did cause delays but not excessively so.

 

[randyrippley]

I think the platform work for Regional Eurostar, which was done at a number of WCML stations, was purely to cut them back a bit so the 374s didn't whack the coping stones off.

With regard to Lancaster there is a small "open area" at the ends of platforms 1 and 2 (the north facing bays), it presently has bike racks in it but I have long wondered what its original purpose was. It could well have been used for this sort of purpose if it came for it.

With regard to bi-di use of 3, back then there were far fewer trains through Lancaster, but even with the present service I've seen 4 used bi-di when a Pendolino failed in platform 3 (the issue being a loose windscreen wiper, which was fixed, entertainingly, using a hacksaw and a bit of brute force to cut it off, after which it was thrown in the van area with some disgust). It did cause delays but not excessively so.

Struggling with my memory, but I think you've got that right - there would have been some kind of secure holding / screening pen on that part of the platform. Difficult to see how it would work though given the limited space, and the distance from the buffet and toilet facilities

 

[Ianno87]

Struggling with my memory, but I think you've got that right - there would have been some kind of secure holding / screening pen on that part of the platform. Difficult to see how it would work though given the limited space, and the distance from the buffet and toilet facilities

Dare I say with the number of daily passengers that would actually be expected between Lancaster and Paris, it's size probably wouldn't have been a big deal...

 

[Intercity 225]

I was speaking to somebody earlier who thought the reason why Manchester Piccadilly platform 9 has a lift and platform 10 has travelators was because of Regional Eurostar. He also thought that the shop units on platform 10, the waiting area that today is mainly used by passengers before heading to platforms 13+14 and the dedicated lift entrance were also all created with Regional Eurostar in mind.

Can anybody confirm or deny these claims?

 

[CW2]

I was speaking to somebody earlier who thought the reason why Manchester Piccadilly platform 9 has a lift and platform 10 has travelators was because of Regional Eurostar. He also thought that the shop units on platform 10, the waiting area that today is mainly used by passengers before heading to platforms 13+14 and the dedicated lift entrance were also all created with Regional Eurostar in mind.

Can anybody confirm or deny these claims?

It certainly rings a bell. Even Crewe had a dedicated Eurostar waiting room. Shame it never happened. (Another example of hype and wishful thinking colliding with reality methinks ...)

 

[PupCuff]

I was speaking to somebody earlier who thought the reason why Manchester Piccadilly platform 9 has a lift and platform 10 has travelators was because of Regional Eurostar. He also thought that the shop units on platform 10, the waiting area that today is mainly used by passengers before heading to platforms 13+14 and the dedicated lift entrance were also all created with Regional Eurostar in mind.

Can anybody confirm or deny these claims?

It's unlikely to be the case. The revamp to Piccadilly took place in the very late 90s and early 2000s, which would put it (just) after plans for Regional Eurostar had been shelved. Platforms 10, 11 and 12 at Piccadilly are significantly shorter than the others so couldn't accommodate a TMST set, and if you wanted facilities for your Regional Eurostar customers it would seem illogical to put these around platforms those trains couldn't use, unless the intention was to run them on the junction, which would be a nightmare idea in itself; it's bad enough on there with just two tracks for the relatively short through trains and dispatching long trains is a challenge. The improvements to Piccadilly primarily tied in with hosting the 2002 Commonwealth Games (Manchester hosting it I mean, not Piccadilly station, I certainly wouldn't recommend polevaulting near the overhead wires).

 

[Senex]

It's unlikely to be the case. The revamp to Piccadilly took place in the very late 90s and early 2000s, which would put it (just) after plans for Regional Eurostar had been shelved. Platforms 10, 11 and 12 at Piccadilly are significantly shorter than the others so couldn't accommodate a TMST set, and if you wanted facilities for your Regional Eurostar customers it would seem illogical to put these around platforms those trains couldn't use, unless the intention was to run them on the junction, which would be a nightmare idea in itself; it's bad enough on there with just two tracks for the relatively short through trains and dispatching long trains is a challenge. The improvements to Piccadilly primarily tied in with hosting the 2002 Commonwealth Games (Manchester hosting it I mean, not Piccadilly station, I certainly wouldn't recommend polevaulting near the overhead wires).

Wouldn't the Regional Eurostars have been confined at Manchester to the three long fast-lines platforms provided in the rebuild for electrification (5, 8, and 9) to serve the longest trains of that long-ago period when long trains still regularly ran? The big investment in Manchester was of course the depot in Longsight, complete with its large "L'Eurostar habite ici" label.

 

[PupCuff]

Wouldn't the Regional Eurostars have been confined at Manchester to the three long fast-lines platforms provided in the rebuild for electrification (5, 8, and 9) to serve the longest trains of that long-ago period when long trains still regularly ran? The big investment in Manchester was of course the depot in Longsight, complete with its large "L'Eurostar habite ici" label.

I have the North of London TMST sets down as 312m so the only platforms at Piccadilly which could accommodate that length of train would indeed be 5, 8 and 9, though using the full length of 9 stitches up access to 10, 11 and 12.

 

[Senex]

I have the North of London TMST sets down as 312m so the only platforms at Piccadilly which could accommodate that length of train would indeed be 5, 8 and 9, though using the full length of 9 stitches up access to 10, 11 and 12.

Is that 10, 11, and 12 as they now are, or as they were back in the early 1960s when the track modernisation was finished (i.e. before all the changes to allow the bodge-job on 13 and 14)?